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Author Topic:   Choosing a faith
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17368
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 1381 of 1532 (902312)
11-21-2022 2:39 PM
Reply to: Message 1380 by GDR
11-21-2022 2:04 PM


Re: What does God want of Us
quote:
I gave you evidence such as why would He tell them to head for the hills if it is about the end of the world
Because there is no reason to run away if a gentile army is going to storm Jerusalem, murdering and raping the inhabitants? Jewish end-times prophecies do not fit with your ideas about “the end of the world”. As I’ve pointed out to you more than once.
The only daft thing is Luke’s idea of waiting until the attacking army surrounds the city.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1380 by GDR, posted 11-21-2022 2:04 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1383 by GDR, posted 11-22-2022 4:25 PM PaulK has replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 7848
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 1382 of 1532 (902319)
11-21-2022 3:50 PM
Reply to: Message 1380 by GDR
11-21-2022 2:04 PM


Countdown till GDR runs away again.
So, since no one buys into your ideas you get pissy? Again you failed to convince anyone that you have or ever had a valid, convincing argument. Maybe time to run away again and come back later wit the same stupid arguments.

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1380 by GDR, posted 11-21-2022 2:04 PM GDR has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 5828
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 1383 of 1532 (902372)
11-22-2022 4:25 PM
Reply to: Message 1381 by PaulK
11-21-2022 2:39 PM


Re: What does God want of Us
PaulK writes:
Because there is no reason to run away if a gentile army is going to storm Jerusalem, murdering and raping the inhabitants? Jewish end-times prophecies do not fit with your ideas about “the end of the world”. As I’ve pointed out to you more than once.
Firstly, I wish you would tell me what my views of the end of the world are. It is my view that the end of humanity, at any rate, will be by a nuclear war, by our invention of a virus that can't be stopped or some other clever thing we will come up with. And I don't know the hour or the day either. As for theories about the end of the physical world is concerned I'm quite happy to leave that to science.
Let's use the Matthew 24 account of what Jesus said. Here is the passage.
quote:
15 “So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’ spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand—
16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.
17 Let no one on the housetop go down to take anything out of the house.
18 Let no one in the field go back to get their cloak.
19 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers!
20 Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath.
21 For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again.
The first verse refers back to Daniel 9 and is about the destruction caused by war. Then he tells them to get out of town and quickly before there is no escape.
He adds that it will be particularly hard for young mothers and hopefully it won't take place in winter.
This is obviously about a war and not end times.
As for Luke maybe we can cut him a little slack as he says when the army is surrounding Jerusalem and they should head for the hills, he does say that is for those who are in Judea which is a lot more than just Jerusalem.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1381 by PaulK, posted 11-21-2022 2:39 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1384 by PaulK, posted 11-22-2022 5:04 PM GDR has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17368
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 1384 of 1532 (902375)
11-22-2022 5:04 PM
Reply to: Message 1383 by GDR
11-22-2022 4:25 PM


Re: What does God want of Us
quote:
Firstly, I wish you would tell me what my views of the end of the world are
I am going on what you say. You claim that there would be no point in running away from Jerusalem. Which is quite enough.
quote:
The first verse refers back to Daniel 9 and is about the destruction caused by war. Then he tells them to get out of town and quickly before there is no escape.

He adds that it will be particularly hard for young mothers and hopefully it won't take place in winter.

This is obviously about a war and not end times.

Which proves that you are still wilfully ignoring Jewish ideas about the end times. Which are full of war. As you certainly ought to know by now.
quote:
As for Luke maybe we can cut him a little slack as he says when the army is surrounding Jerusalem and they should head for the hills, he does say that is for those who are in Judea which is a lot more than just Jerusalem.
So it is only too late for the people who most need to run. That’s helpful.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1383 by GDR, posted 11-22-2022 4:25 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1385 by GDR, posted 11-23-2022 11:58 AM PaulK has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 5828
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 1385 of 1532 (902430)
11-23-2022 11:58 AM
Reply to: Message 1384 by PaulK
11-22-2022 5:04 PM


Re: What does God want of Us
PaulK writes:
Which proves that you are still wilfully ignoring Jewish ideas about the end times. Which are full of war. As you certainly ought to know by now.
I'm curious about what you think the Jewish ideas of end times were. I could be wrong but I don't think that they had a particular belief about end times as we think of them. They did have different ideas about a life after death.
Also, they talked about the end of the age but that was simply about the end of the Roman age or era.
PaulK writes:
So it is only too late for the people who most need to run. That’s helpful.
I think you are kinda looking at this a bit too much in isolation. He did give a number of ways that they can see that this is coming so they will have plenty of warning.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1384 by PaulK, posted 11-22-2022 5:04 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1386 by PaulK, posted 11-23-2022 12:09 PM GDR has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17368
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 1386 of 1532 (902432)
11-23-2022 12:09 PM
Reply to: Message 1385 by GDR
11-23-2022 11:58 AM


Re: What does God want of Us
quote:
I'm curious about what you think the Jewish ideas of end times were.
I think that the Zechariah quote was sufficient.
The Jews are attacked - and suffer - God intervenes to save them, and gives the Jews a preeminent place in the world. It’s the suffering of the first part that people would be running away from.
Often you’d get the restoration of the Davidic line and the return of the Lost Tribes, too.
quote:
Also, they talked about the end of the age but that was simply about the end of the Roman age or era.
But that would not be in the Tanakh - even though Daniel has references to Roman intervention in the wars, Rome wasn’t seen as a threat. And off hand I don’t think any of the other books of the Tanakh mention Rome at all - most are too early anyway.
quote:
I think you are kinda looking at this a bit too much in isolation. He did give a number of ways that they can see that this is coming so they will have plenty of warning.
The instruction to run to the hills is explicitly linked to the armies surrounding Jerusalem, which is both obvious and late. If the Romans had installed pagan worship in the Temple - as Matthew and Mark say - that would have been a trigger for revolt, but one that would give time to flee. Of course that didn’t happen, hence the change.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1385 by GDR, posted 11-23-2022 11:58 AM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1388 by GDR, posted 11-23-2022 7:36 PM PaulK has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 21264
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 1387 of 1532 (902439)
11-23-2022 12:34 PM
Reply to: Message 1227 by GDR
10-31-2022 9:42 PM


Re: How can ultimate purpose come from anyone else, especially a God?
GDR writes:
Percy writes:
You have evidence in the Bible but no evidence it is accurate? What would you say about a researcher who said this:

"All I have for evidence is my data, but there is nothing to indicate my data is accurate. I only believe it is accurate."

How strong a case do you think this researcher has for having discovered something likely true about the real world? He has nothing, right? Well, that's what you have.
Essentially, correct but we can observe that enough people testified about it that the early church was formed in contrast to all of the other messianic movements of the era.
You're providing the same already rebutted answer. When you say "we can observe", who do you think "we" is. It isn't you or anyone you know. "We" cannot be anyone who's been alive in the last 2000 years. What you have is stuff people wrote long ago about supposed events they did not witness and for which there's no evidence anyone witnessed.
Instead of going off and finding some evidence, the best you can seem to do is say stuff along the lines of, "IMHO, I find it credible that there were many witnesses."
Some of the other movements even had some military success but when the Romans executed them their movements always ground to a an immediate halt. This movement didn't end in spite of the humiliating cruel death at Roman hands.
It was Paul's efforts at founding churches in the Jewish diaspora that made Christianity a success, not anything about the stories he made up about his religion's main character.
Percy writes:
Paul created the Christian church by evangelizing about Jesus in the Jewish diaspora. None of those who joined his churches or even wrote about Jesus had even seen or heard him, let alone met him.
Certainly Paul was the greatest evangelist but he was hardly alone.
Without Paul there would be no Christianity.
Also of course Paul was under the tuition of the Apostles prior to going to the Roman/Greek areas, that also did include the Jewish diaspora.
You can "IMHO" believe this, but there's no evidence for it and good evidence against it from Paul himself:
quote:
11I want you to know, brothers and sisters, that the gospel I preached is not of human origin. 12I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it; rather, I received it by revelation from Jesus Christ.
  —Galations 1:11-12
Percy writes:
Luke provides a good example right in the beginning of the lack of evidence pervading all of Biblical scholarship. Luke begins by naming Herod, a figure of well established historicity, but then goes on in 1:9 to describe how Zechariah, a priest of the temple, was "chosen by lot, according to the custom of the priesthood, to go into the temple of the Lord and burn incense." Zechariah was alone. Luke then describes in 1:11 how "an angel of the Lord appeared to him, standing at the right side of the altar of incense." Luke tells us the angel was Gabriel.

There could only have been only a single witness to this event, Zechariah, but he was rendered speechless until the day of his prophesized son's birth. How convenient that he only gets to tell the other husbands of his village of the prophecy after the fact. And how could Luke know about Zechariah's vision, including what appears to be every word Gabriel said. If we presume Luke or his community didn't make the story up out of whole cloth then the story was passed orally down through the decades. Do you see an ounce of real evidence in any part of this?

Luke continues on in the same manner, the next part describing in detail Gabriel's appearance to Mary who, just like Zechariah, was the sole witness.
There is some factual basis in that he clearly describes specifically who the account is about.
If the pronoun "he" refers to Luke, and if the "who the account is about" part refers to Zechariah, then you're not making any sense in seeing a "factual basis." There's nothing in it to assume anything factual at all, including the existence of Zechariah.
Let me make sure I understand you correctly. You see the reference to a specific person, Zechariah, as a "factual basis." But every piece of fiction and non-fiction that includes characters refers to specific people. If you really see a "factual basis" in that passage then you have serious reasoning problems that leave you unable to separate fact from fiction. No wonder you're so often frustrating.
With the amount of detail given I would say that there is a basis for the story, which I agree could have been fabricated by one of the characters. However, I would still contend that Luke was given that account and believed it.
And you think the amount of detail in an account is a "factual basis"? Then I guess "The Hobbit" and all the subsequent books have a factual basis, too.
Even worse for you, the details in the Luke account are impossible for him to have known. He was given the account by someone else, and if Luke believed that the angel Gabriel was being quoted accurately at length then he's kind of gullible. And ask yourself how Zechariah recalled the exact angelic words nine months after he supposedly heard them. You're piling implausibility upon implausibility and following it with, "IMHO, I believe it credible."
The truth or veracity of historical events is established by independent accounts that confirm one another and by archeological artifacts.
Percy writes:
Your entire body is made up of "mindless particles". Obviously consciousness, morality and sentience have no trouble coming from "mindless particles".
There is a difference between using mindless particles to facilitate consciousness as opposed to evolving from mindlessness.
We've been over this. It's just life doing what life does, selecting from imperfectly reproduced life. Mindless evolution can produce change in any aspect of life, including brain function.
GDR writes:
I realize that we can see it working its way through societies but that does nothing to answer the question of whether or not that is happening because of a pre-existing intelligence or not. That too is belief without evidence.
Percy writes:
What is "it" in this paragraph? Whatever "it" is, you are correct that your beliefs are not backed by objective evidence.
The it is empathy or even just consciousness.
There is no objective evidence for your beliefs about the origins of empathy, and it wasn't even much evident as a quality of the celestial in the OT.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1227 by GDR, posted 10-31-2022 9:42 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1390 by GDR, posted 11-24-2022 2:30 AM Percy has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 5828
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 1388 of 1532 (902464)
11-23-2022 7:36 PM
Reply to: Message 1386 by PaulK
11-23-2022 12:09 PM


Re: What does God want of Us
PaulK writes:
I think that the Zechariah quote was sufficient.
The Jews are attacked - and suffer - God intervenes to save them, and gives the Jews a preeminent place in the world. It’s the suffering of the first part that people would be running away from.

Often you’d get the restoration of the Davidic line and the return of the Lost Tribes, too.
Yes I agree. The Jews had hoped that Yahweh would return, possibly with the use of a messianic figure who would be anointed by Yahweh and lead them against their enemies, whoever they might be.
PaulK writes:
But that would not be in the Tanakh - even though Daniel has references to Roman intervention in the wars, Rome wasn’t seen as a threat. And off hand I don’t think any of the other books of the Tanakh mention Rome at all - most are too early anyway.
Certainly. It could also have applied to whatever age or era you want to mention. It could be the Babylonian, Assyrian or even the Hasmonean eras. In this case it was the Romans.
PaulK writes:
The instruction to run to the hills is explicitly linked to the armies surrounding Jerusalem, which is both obvious and late. If the Romans had installed pagan worship in the Temple - as Matthew and Mark say - that would have been a trigger for revolt, but one that would give time to flee. Of course that didn’t happen, hence the change.
I'm not clear on your point. What change are you referring to? The Romans surrounded Jerusalem as a result of the revolution.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1386 by PaulK, posted 11-23-2022 12:09 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1389 by PaulK, posted 11-24-2022 12:22 AM GDR has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17368
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 1389 of 1532 (902475)
11-24-2022 12:22 AM
Reply to: Message 1388 by GDR
11-23-2022 7:36 PM


Re: What does God want of Us
I note that you don’t admit that there is a clear reason to run away given Jewish views. A fact already proven when you made the claim before.
quote:
I'm not clear on your point. What change are you referring to? The Romans surrounded Jerusalem as a result of the revolution.
It’s right there in the quote. Mark and Matthew say to run when the Romans start pagan worship in the Temple - which would have almost certainly provoked a revolt. Luke says that the sign to flee is armies surrounding Jerusalem which would not have happened until the Romans mobilised their forces to respond to the revolt (at the earliest).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1388 by GDR, posted 11-23-2022 7:36 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1396 by GDR, posted 11-24-2022 2:44 PM PaulK has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 5828
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 1390 of 1532 (902478)
11-24-2022 2:30 AM
Reply to: Message 1387 by Percy
11-23-2022 12:34 PM


Re: How can ultimate purpose come from anyone else, especially a God?
Percy writes:
You're providing the same already rebutted answer. When you say "we can observe", who do you think "we" is. It isn't you or anyone you know. "We" cannot be anyone who's been alive in the last 2000 years. What you have is stuff people wrote long ago about supposed events they did not witness and for which there's no evidence anyone witnessed.

Instead of going off and finding some evidence, the best you can seem to do is say stuff along the lines of, "IMHO, I find it credible that there were many witnesses."
Firstly it is only your view that none of the NT was written by eye witnesses. As I have said earlier Richard Bauckham wrote a large 700 page book on the subject and doesn't agree that eye witnesses were involved in writing the Gospels. It of course is not proof but it is someone who as an historian has spent considerable time and energy on the subject and disagrees with you.
Also, and again, I wasn't offering the fact that many people believed what was in the Gospels as evidence of their accuracy but only as evidence that they were written to be believed.
Percy writes:
It was Paul's efforts at founding churches in the Jewish diaspora that made Christianity a success, not anything about the stories he made up about his religion's main character.
That is conjecture to fit your belief. We only know what happened with Paul. We don't know what would have happened without him.
Percy writes:
Without Paul there would be no Christianity.
C'mon, you make these bold assertions. There were numerous places that Paul never made it to where Christian communities formed.
Percy writes:
You can "IMHO" believe this, but there's no evidence for it and good evidence against it from Paul himself:
Sure, he is talking about his road to Damascus experience but he also spent considerable time with the apostles in Judea.
Percy writes:
If the pronoun "he" refers to Luke, and if the "who the account is about" part refers to Zechariah, then you're not making any sense in seeing a "factual basis." There's nothing in it to assume anything factual at all, including the existence of Zechariah.
And you think the amount of detail in an account is a "factual basis"? Then I guess "The Hobbit" and all the subsequent books have a factual basis, too.

Even worse for you, the details in the Luke account are impossible for him to have known. He was given the account by someone else, and if Luke believed that the angel Gabriel was being quoted accurately at length then he's kind of gullible. And ask yourself how Zechariah recalled the exact angelic words nine months after he supposedly heard them. You're piling implausibility upon implausibility and following it with, "IMHO, I believe it credible."

The truth or veracity of historical events is established by independent accounts that confirm one another and by archeological artifacts.
You keep insisting that I understand the Bible in the way you seem to want to insist that I do. I did merely say that I believe that this story was given to Luke from some source but that does not make it factual. In my view it has a very legendary feel to it and is very likely the case that it is a legend that grew up around the birth of Jesus and John.
Percy writes:
There is no objective evidence for your beliefs about the origins of empathy, and it wasn't even much evident as a quality of the celestial in the OT
There is no objective evidence for your beliefs about the origins of empathy either. There is only the fact that we can be observed, although very unevenly, in cultures around the world. Actually, in the OT there are many instances where Yahweh promotes empathy. However, I agree that there are many cases where the writers have Yahweh commanding the polar opposite of that.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1387 by Percy, posted 11-23-2022 12:34 PM Percy has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1393 by Theodoric, posted 11-24-2022 1:19 PM GDR has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 21264
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.4


(1)
Message 1391 of 1532 (902512)
11-24-2022 12:56 PM
Reply to: Message 1256 by GDR
11-02-2022 5:25 PM


Re: What does God want of Us
GDR writes:
We do have the writings of the early church fathers plus Tacitus the Roman historian who wrote this:
If you're not going to address the questions raised about the reliability of Tacitus as a source about Jesus then you shouldn't be citing him.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1256 by GDR, posted 11-02-2022 5:25 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1398 by GDR, posted 11-24-2022 5:41 PM Percy has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 21264
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 1392 of 1532 (902513)
11-24-2022 1:05 PM
Reply to: Message 1270 by Dredge
11-03-2022 10:46 AM


Re: What does God want of Us
Dredge writes:
The article I provided is written in plain English .... even you should be able to understand it.
From the Forum Guidelines:
  1. Bare links with no supporting discussion should be avoided. Make the argument in your own words and use links as supporting references.
The reasons for this rule is these common occurrences:
  1. Citations often don't say what people think they do.
  2. People often don't understand their own citations.
  3. The cited references are sometimes long, leaving it impossible to know which part was being referenced. GDR recently referenced an entire book.
Asking that people express the argument or information in their own words reveals whether any of these issues is a problem.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1270 by Dredge, posted 11-03-2022 10:46 AM Dredge has not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 7848
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 1393 of 1532 (902515)
11-24-2022 1:19 PM
Reply to: Message 1390 by GDR
11-24-2022 2:30 AM


Re: How can ultimate purpose come from anyone else, especially a God?
Bauckham is a Christian theologian he has no advanced degree in History. He does apologetics not History.

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1390 by GDR, posted 11-24-2022 2:30 AM GDR has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1394 by dwise1, posted 11-24-2022 2:09 PM Theodoric has not replied

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 5475
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 2.8


(1)
Message 1394 of 1532 (902517)
11-24-2022 2:09 PM
Reply to: Message 1393 by Theodoric
11-24-2022 1:19 PM


Re: How can ultimate purpose come from anyone else, especially a God?
He does apologetics not History.
One definition of apologetics is that it's making up excuses for religion, explaining problems away. A bit harsh, but all too often true.
It's supposed to be about harmonizing religious beliefs with contradictions or conflicts both internal and external (eg, when a belief contradicts reality). Ideally, that contradiction is only apparent, only seems to exist because there's something that you don't understand, in which case apologetics explains why that contradiction/conflict is only apparent and does not actually exist. One simple example would be that a person didn't understand what his religion actually taught and so came to a faulty conclusion that his religious leaders had lied to him. For example, many believers hold beliefs that are not actually part of Doctrine (eg, that all the books of the Bible had been written in the order in which they are printed, which is not true) and have a crisis of faith when presented with the truth. In such cases, having the truth explained to them and showing that the belief they had held would show the conflict to only be apparent. That form of harmonization would be a proper use of apologetics.
IOW, explaining what actual Doctrine is and showing truthfully how there's no conflict between it and reality would be the proper function of apologetics.
For example, showing that there evolution no more conflicts with God than gravity or the Pythagorean Theorem does. And I view such use of apologetics as proper and necessary.
However, there are also many cases where that contradiction/conflict does actually exist, in which cases apologetics takes a sharp and hard left turn to the Dark Side. That is when apologetics starts just "making up excuses", abandoning education for dreaming up rationalizations for false beliefs. That is not harmonizing, but rather just flat-out lying. And that is the realm of "creation science".
That is why apologetics has such a bad reputation and deservedly so.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1393 by Theodoric, posted 11-24-2022 1:19 PM Theodoric has not replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4184
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 1395 of 1532 (902518)
11-24-2022 2:20 PM
Reply to: Message 1372 by GDR
11-18-2022 8:02 PM


Re: What does God want of Us
Sorry to have not been replying. I got a bad case of the flu and haven't been at my computer for close to a week. As a result I gonna start answer emails starting with these last one from Percy. I'm still getting over whatever bug I had and don't have the energy to answer all of them. If anyone wants to go back and repeat somthing you brought up before feel free. I did read all of your other posts off line on my email account with my phone.
If you want to and have time, bump: Message 1334

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1372 by GDR, posted 11-18-2022 8:02 PM GDR has not replied

  
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