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Author Topic:   Choosing a faith
ringo
Member
Posts: 20492
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 1336 of 1532 (901416)
11-09-2022 2:36 PM
Reply to: Message 1321 by Phat
11-08-2022 3:39 PM


Re: Welcome Back GDR
Phat writes:
It is a fact that not everyone who professes faith possesses faith.
By their fruits ye shall know them. If they don't pracice faith, they don't have faith. If they don't trust God to take care of them, without retirement plans, they have no faith in Him.
Phat writes:
Its likely that you would judge real Christians solely on their willingness to give everything up...houses, cars, and bank accounts included.
That's what Jesus said. And that's what His real followers did. The disciples didn't follow Him in limousines.
Phat writes:
I realize that Jesus set that standard, but what *you* don't realize is that Jesus is more than a lawgiving character in a book.
You can't make Him "more" than the character in the book by doing less.
Phat writes:
He relates to each of us where we are.
No He does not.
He sets the standard by which we are saved. If there was no standard, there would be no reason for judgement.

Come all of you cowboys all over this land,
I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command:
To hold a six shooter, and never to run
As long as there's bullets in both of your guns.
-- Woody Guthrie

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1321 by Phat, posted 11-08-2022 3:39 PM Phat has not replied

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 20492
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 1337 of 1532 (901417)
11-09-2022 2:44 PM
Reply to: Message 1322 by Phat
11-08-2022 3:44 PM


Re: Evidence Unplugged
Phat writes:
In matters of supernatural manifestations and healing, the only evidence that survives 2000 years is ongoing reports of witness statements.
Witness statements are damn near worthless when they're brand new. And they deteriorate with age.
Phat writes:
... I would argue that stories with this much importance are preserved remarkably well.
You mean you wish they were preserved remarkably well. In fact, the "importance" of the story has no bearing on how well it is preserved. We know very well that eyewitness accounts of a murder are no more reliable than messages in a game of Telephone.
Phat writes:
They had copies of original manuscripts in which the meaning changed so little as to be negligible.
One step in a game of Telephone may be accurate. But the fact that you're talking about "copies of original manuscripts" shoots you in the foot. There are no original manuscripts - and we have no reason to think that the copies of copies are accurate copies.

Come all of you cowboys all over this land,
I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command:
To hold a six shooter, and never to run
As long as there's bullets in both of your guns.
-- Woody Guthrie

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1322 by Phat, posted 11-08-2022 3:44 PM Phat has not replied

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 20492
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 1338 of 1532 (901419)
11-09-2022 2:54 PM
Reply to: Message 1323 by Phat
11-08-2022 3:48 PM


Re: Making It All Up
Phat writes:
ringo writes:
They(the authors of scripture) made up a God that YOU don't want.
Nonsense.
You misquoted me. I said, " The God of the Bible is most likely closer to reality than the God that YOU made up - but it still isn't very close to reality." Message 109
Phat writes:
I can read a Bible as well as anybody...
It doesn't make any difference how well you can read the Bible if you disregard what it says in favor of what you wish it said.
Phat writes:
... and have no ax to grind...
You clearly DO have an axe to grind. Why else would you embrace the Bible when it says something you like and reject it when it says something you don't like?
Phat writes:
... unlike the mythicists.
What makes you think the mythicists have an axe to grind?
Phat writes:
And as for Satan being God's minion, I will agree that he was the tempter...
Again, you are NOT agreeing. You're still circling back to your misconception that Satan is the bad guy.
Phat writes:
Satan's basic job according to Job is to make us tougher and separate the contenders from the pretenders.
So he's after the pretenders like you, to make you stop pretending and accept the truth.

Come all of you cowboys all over this land,
I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command:
To hold a six shooter, and never to run
As long as there's bullets in both of your guns.
-- Woody Guthrie

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1323 by Phat, posted 11-08-2022 3:48 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1344 by Phat, posted 11-10-2022 9:18 AM ringo has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 5828
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 1339 of 1532 (901428)
11-09-2022 8:00 PM
Reply to: Message 1291 by Percy
11-05-2022 7:48 AM


Re: What does God want of Us
Percy writes:
But it was addressed to you. You quoted Dylan's "ya gotta serve somebody" and insisted that worship was the only alternative, either of a God or something material. And as a way of pointing out that you're wrong I used myself as an example of someone who worships nothing, and of course I'm by no means alone in this. There are things that I value, but nothing that I worship. Obviously one doesn't have to worship something. You have no response?
I suggest that there is a big difference between what we actually worship and the idea of worship as part of a religious function. I'd say that worship is defined by the goals we set in life, It might be money or power, but it might being as best you can being the person that you believe a deity wants you to be.
Percy writes:
This is a non-answer. It is still circular to say that the portions of the Bible you choose are based on what you see in Jesus who you only know about from the Bible. Unless, as I said, you're making stuff up about Jesus or listening to what other people make up.
Let's say you read a book about any historical figure. Obviously it is someone we have never met nor have we met any individual that personally met them. The book likely gives an account of what they did and possibly about what they believed and maybe even taught. This account may or may not be accurate but we make up our minds as to what we believe about it. Sure we can look for supporting material and it may be strong or weak, but that isn't may point. Forming a conclusion from what we read is not circular. It would be circular if we take that verse in 2nd Timothy and the use it to validate the Bible as being literally true but I'm not doing that.
Actually, the Biblical accounts are the foundation of what I believe, but also, I very much relate top this statement by CS Lewis.
quote:
"I believe in Christianity as I believe that the Sun has risen not only because I see it but because by it I see everything else.”
I realize that this doesn't make sense to hardly anyone else here, but it speaks to me. I realize that I have to deal with suffering but on the other hand I have the understanding of the degree of empathy that others have for those who suffer. I have also have the sense of divine when I see a new parent holding their new born in their arms with absolute adoration or when I see someone risk or give their lives in defence of another.
Percy writes:
This isn't really a discussion. It's you making non-sequiturs, us pointing them out, and you ignoring them to continue repeating what you've been saying all along. Nothing we say seems to have any effect on you. It doesn't matter what we say, you just keep repeating yourself.
Sure, if you keep asking the same question you will get the same answer. It seems that you want evidence that both of us know doesn't exist.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1291 by Percy, posted 11-05-2022 7:48 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1472 by Percy, posted 11-30-2022 1:27 PM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 5828
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 1340 of 1532 (901429)
11-09-2022 8:34 PM
Reply to: Message 1297 by PaulK
11-05-2022 1:48 PM


Re: What does God want of Us
GDR writes:
Frankly I don't know what most Christians believe. However the messianic prophesies were about bringing about the end of the age which would be the end of Roman occupation.
Paulk writes:
That is how they might be interpreted at the time of Jesus. It certainly isn’t how Jews interpret them now. Or how they were originally meant,
Well I can't imagine that the present day Jews see it that way as the Roman occupation is long over. However the 1st century Jews did see the end of the age being about the end of Roman occupation.
PaulK writes:
To be clear my point is that I believe that Jesus did not fulfil the Messianic prophecies, so his followers - those that did not abandon the cult - made up excuses to get around that. Hence the Second Coming. (And please don’t suggest that they wouldn’t make up excuses - you certainly do).
Jesus did not fulfil the the messianic role that the majority of 1st century Jews envisioned. He di not raise an army to drive out the Romans. Using passages like the suffering servant i Isaiah Jesus as messiah was very different that the messiah that they had hoped for.
I agree, that as always Christians will contend that Christ will return in their life times, and they quite likely have and will make up excuses. However, I contend that Jesus didn't focus on the world as it will be, but on the world here and now.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1297 by PaulK, posted 11-05-2022 1:48 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1342 by PaulK, posted 11-10-2022 12:13 AM GDR has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 5828
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 1341 of 1532 (901430)
11-09-2022 8:55 PM
Reply to: Message 1299 by PaulK
11-05-2022 2:19 PM


Re: What does God want of Us
=PaulK writes:
So you think that the Gospel of the Hebrews is the real Gospel written by Matthew, not the one we call “Matthew”? Because that is what you just said,
Yes, but not to be confused with the NT book of Hebrews. It was simply that the Gospel of Matthew was written primarily for the Hebrews.
GDR writes:
Also the Jewish nation had two particular hopes for the future. One was the return of Yahweh to their nation and the other was that of a messiah who would be a man anointed by God to lead them against Rome. The Gospels story essentially sees Jesus as fulfilling both of those hopes but in a very different way than what the Jews expected.

Jesus used the term "son of man" which combined both hopes.
PaulK writes:
It is not the term at all. It is Christian beliefs added after Jesus’ death.
To a degree I have to agree with that. However, I also contend that Jesus understood it the way I stated. The disciples could not get it through their head that Jesus was going to somehow rid them of the Romans. He didn't have an army but these miracles kept happening so they would have concluded that Yahweh was behind Jesus and so He would come and defeat the enemy the way they envisioned. After the resurrection they started to think more deeply what it was that Jesus taught and we've been doing that for 2000 years.
Interestingly enough even after the resurrection we can see that the disciples still thought that Jesus had returned to eject the Romans from the area as we can see in Acts 1. It took them a while to figure it all out, which they did reflecting on it all.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1299 by PaulK, posted 11-05-2022 2:19 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1343 by PaulK, posted 11-10-2022 12:27 AM GDR has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17368
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 1342 of 1532 (901435)
11-10-2022 12:13 AM
Reply to: Message 1340 by GDR
11-09-2022 8:34 PM


Re: What does God want of Us
quote:
Well I can't imagine that the present day Jews see it that way as the Roman occupation is long over. However the 1st century Jews did see the end of the age being about the end of Roman occupation.
Which is just an interpretation popular at the time, not the originally intended meaning, nor one with any special claim to be “the” meaning.
quote:
Jesus did not fulfil the the messianic role that the majority of 1st century Jews envisioned. He di not raise an army to drive out the Romans. Using passages like the suffering servant i Isaiah Jesus as messiah was very different that the messiah that they had hoped for
Which ones did he fulfil? The “suffering servant” in Isaiah hardly qualifies.
quote:
I agree, that as always Christians will contend that Christ will return in their life times, and they quite likely have and will make up excuses. However, I contend that Jesus didn't focus on the world as it will be, but on the world here and now
Which is rather at odds with predictive prophecy.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1340 by GDR, posted 11-09-2022 8:34 PM GDR has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17368
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 1343 of 1532 (901436)
11-10-2022 12:27 AM
Reply to: Message 1341 by GDR
11-09-2022 8:55 PM


Re: What does God want of Us
quote:
Yes, but not to be confused with the NT book of Hebrews.
Indeed, the Gospel of the Hebrews is not in the NT at all. By the way, how did you convince yoursek& it was the “real” Matthew? Just because Jerome said so?
quote:
It was simply that the Gospel of Matthew was written primarily for the Hebrews.
Are you talking about the non-canonical Gospel of the Hebrews - which you call the “real” Matthew here? Or are you just making an irrelevant comment about the canonical Matthew?
quote:
To a degree I have to agree with that. However, I also contend that Jesus understood it the way I stated
On what basis do you contend that Jesus agreed with your thinking?
quote:
The disciples could not get it through their head that Jesus was going to somehow rid them of the Romans. He didn't have an army but these miracles kept happening so they would have concluded that Yahweh was behind Jesus and so He would come and defeat the enemy the way they envisioned.
As we’ve seen from Daniel and Zechariah the expectation was that God would give victory to the Jews, not an army. But God did not, even though Jesus reportedly stoked such ideas by alluding to Daniel.
quote:
After the resurrection they started to think more deeply what it was that Jesus taught and we've been doing that for 2000 years.

Or distorted it based on their wants and needs, and the wants and needs of their successors. The growing hostility to the Jews and the desire to fit in with Rome were no doubt major factors. The attempts to blame the Jews rather than the Romans for Jesus’ death include rather obvious distortions of this sort.
quote:
Interestingly enough even after the resurrection we can see that the disciples still thought that Jesus had returned to eject the Romans from the area as we can see in Acts 1. It took them a while to figure it all out, which they did reflecting on it all
I note that you do not mention that Jesus implies that he will do just that. He talks about when it will happen, rather than offering any correction on what will happen.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1341 by GDR, posted 11-09-2022 8:55 PM GDR has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 16627
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 1344 of 1532 (901455)
11-10-2022 9:18 AM
Reply to: Message 1338 by ringo
11-09-2022 2:54 PM


Re: Making It All Up
You are inconsistent in mentioning "the truth.".
You don't acknowledge the Bible as truth apart from human mythos and then say that anyone who challenges it is making up their own story. Why is the original storyline any better? After all if Jesus and His Father were made up to begin with how are the original stories any. better than modern interpretation?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1338 by ringo, posted 11-09-2022 2:54 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1345 by ringo, posted 11-10-2022 11:13 AM Phat has not replied

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 20492
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 1345 of 1532 (901475)
11-10-2022 11:13 AM
Reply to: Message 1344 by Phat
11-10-2022 9:18 AM


Re: Making It All Up
Phat writes:
You are inconsistent in mentioning "the truth.".
Not at all. Did you think I was referring to absolute truth? I was referring to verifiable truth. Truth that is supported by evidence. (Incidentaly, the word "verify" comes from the Latin verus, which means "true". If it ain't verifiable, it ain't true.)
Phat writes:
You don't acknowledge the Bible as truth...
Because it isn't. And you're a fine one to pretend to hold up the Bible as truth when you reject so much of what it says.
Phat writes:
... and then say that anyone who challenges it is making up their own story.
But i don't say that. You can certainly challenge the parts that are blatantly NOT true, like the Flood and the Resurrection. You can use EVIDENCE to challenge them. But YOU challenge the (supposed) word of Jesus and you have no evidence whatsoever that He didn't say them. Your only reason for challenging His instructions is that you don't like them. And that's especially egregious, since you pretend to believe in Jesus. It's obvious that the "Jesus" you believe in is entirely made up to suit you.
Phat writes:
Why is the original storyline any better?
We have evidence for it. The only evidence we have for Jesus is the original story.
Phat writes:
After all if Jesus and His Father were made up to begin with how are the original stories any. better than modern interpretation?
We're not talking about "modern interpretation". We're talking about your self-serving made-up-out-of-thin-air story that happens to have a character named Jesus in it. Since you're denying everything we know about the original Jesu, why do you even call your version "Jesus"? And why don't you ever answer that question?

Come all of you cowboys all over this land,
I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command:
To hold a six shooter, and never to run
As long as there's bullets in both of your guns.
-- Woody Guthrie

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1344 by Phat, posted 11-10-2022 9:18 AM Phat has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 21264
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 1346 of 1532 (901485)
11-10-2022 2:10 PM
Reply to: Message 1050 by GDR
10-20-2022 8:21 PM


Re: What does God want of Us
GDR writes:
...but I don't see the need to argue it using insults.
Nor to argue it using evidence, either, apparently, and your determined efforts at finding ways to make lack of evidence seem like evidence have come to seem increasingly unprincipled.
I know I've said this several times already in this thread, but this approach is bound to increase frustrations. It is simple human nature to begin employing "slapping up side of the head" style responses to someone working so hard to just not get it. Your need to believe is so strong it has overcome your reason, and it drives the people you're discussing with crazy after a while.
We know you want to believe these things. We get it. But your beliefs come from within, not from evidence. Your refusal to face this fact head on, indeed your insistence on flip-flopping back and forth between "I have evidence" and "I don't have evidence," just feels dishonest and disrespectful.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1050 by GDR, posted 10-20-2022 8:21 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1347 by GDR, posted 11-10-2022 5:00 PM Percy has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 5828
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 1347 of 1532 (901534)
11-10-2022 5:00 PM
Reply to: Message 1346 by Percy
11-10-2022 2:10 PM


Re: What does God want of Us
Hi Percy
I have said several times is all have for evidence is what is written in the Bible, what others have said about what is written in the Bible and my own subjective conclusions about the physical world and our interaction with it.
I have nothing beyond what I have already said about my rationale as to why I believe what I do. I know that's not enough for you or anyone else, but it is all I've got.
So, if you don't want me to keep saying the same thing then don't keep asking the same questions.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1346 by Percy, posted 11-10-2022 2:10 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1363 by ringo, posted 11-13-2022 1:48 PM GDR has not replied
 Message 1492 by Percy, posted 12-02-2022 2:06 PM GDR has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 5828
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 1348 of 1532 (901535)
11-10-2022 5:11 PM
Reply to: Message 1302 by Tangle
11-05-2022 4:45 PM


Re: What does God want of Us
Tangle writes:
Of course you could! You believers just never get it. You could convince me with convincing evidence. I'm really easy to convince, just show me something convincing. We're not doing anything hard here, all we're trying to establish is if the guy in the centre of the story actually existed. It should be really easy, but it isn't because there is no actual historical evidence.

And it wouldn't matter if he had existed, the really hard bit is finding the evidence that the miraculous stuff he's supposed to have done actually happened and isn't just the story telling of the time.
We both know that there is no convincing evidence. It is just like any historical account. All we have is what is written and then we come to our own conclusions about the veracity of the account, by looking at other written material etc.
Tangle writes:
Wiki - the website - is a non-Christian source, it's who posts there that makes it Christian or otherwise. Almost every biblical "scholar" is a Christian and most are not historians, they're theologians. Read some non-Christian stuff, get a full view.
The article was not about Biblical scholars. Here is a quote where it is about "scholars of antiquity".
quote:
Virtually all scholars of antiquity accept that Jesus was a historical figure
I have read a number of non-Christian authors such as Dawkins, Hitchens, Sagan etc.
AbE Out of curiosity have ever read books by John Polkinghorne or N T Wright?

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1302 by Tangle, posted 11-05-2022 4:45 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1350 by Tangle, posted 11-10-2022 6:01 PM GDR has not replied
 Message 1494 by Percy, posted 12-02-2022 8:22 PM GDR has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 5828
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 1349 of 1532 (901536)
11-10-2022 5:22 PM
Reply to: Message 1304 by Tangle
11-05-2022 5:53 PM


Re: What does God want of Us
Tangle writes:
I did warn you, but I also gave you the summary, the crux being that the "speech" is a literary construct not an oral one. It's written not spoken.
That is quite likely true, however as I said earlier they did have short hand which could have possibly been used. Also of course it could have been written and kept with Jesus dictating it to Matthew after giving the sermon, or also quite possibly a compilation of more than one sermon.
Tangle writes:
That's the text but it's also out of its time, there are things referred to as history that hadn't yet happened - and it's not a prophecy.
I'm not sure what you are referring to here. One point though I'm sceptical about prophesies of future events. I contend that they are at least usually predictions of a non-supernatural nature and I include Jesus in that.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1304 by Tangle, posted 11-05-2022 5:53 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1351 by Tangle, posted 11-10-2022 6:19 PM GDR has not replied
 Message 1497 by Percy, posted 12-03-2022 11:09 AM GDR has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8789
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.8


(1)
Message 1350 of 1532 (901537)
11-10-2022 6:01 PM
Reply to: Message 1348 by GDR
11-10-2022 5:11 PM


Re: What does God want of Us
GDR writes:
We both know that there is no convincing evidence.
But you're convinced anyway. Weird.
But that apart, given that the story is that it was all done to save mankind, why isn't it convincing?
All we have is what is written and then we come to our own conclusions about the veracity of the account, by looking at other written material etc.
What we know about what is written is that it's mythology writ large. You come to your conclusion from prior belief, not, as you admit, on convincing evidence.
The article was not about Biblical scholars. Here is a quote where it is about "scholars of antiquity".

Virtually all scholars of antiquity accept that Jesus was a historical figure
The vast majority of 'scholars' accept Jesus as a historical figure. But then the vast majority (approaching 100%) are Christian. Also the vast majority of them are not historians, they're theologians. Of course Christians absolutely HAVE to believe that Jesus was real. If they didn't they could not be Christians.
When real, modern, objective, historians look at the actual evidence, we get a different story.
For the record, atheists couldn't care either way - it really doesn't matter to us whether he was real or not, what matters is whether he did the things he's said to have done. The fact that you can't even provide convincing evidence that he even existed at all, tells us most of what we need to know.
I have read a number of non-Christian authors such as Dawkins, Hitchens, Sagan etc.
None of those are historians. Get your evolutionary biology from Dawkins, get your polemics from Hitchins, but please, get your history from historians.
AbE Out of curiosity have ever read books by John Polkinghorne or N T Wright?
Polkinghorne is an excellent physicist and mathematician. His opinion about the historicity or otherwise of Jesus is as useless as Dawkins, Hitchins, and Segan's.
I haven't read Wright books, but I have read a lot of what he's written. To me, he's just another theologian parsing a Christian interpretation of ancient mythology in a way that suits his beliefs. How could it be possible for an ordained priest and ex-bishop, to be objective? His views on homosexuality should be a clue to how he sees his religion.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1348 by GDR, posted 11-10-2022 5:11 PM GDR has not replied

  
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