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Author Topic:   Choosing a faith
Percy
Member
Posts: 22391
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


(1)
Message 1291 of 3694 (901122)
11-05-2022 7:48 AM
Reply to: Message 1038 by GDR
10-20-2022 12:49 PM


Re: What does God want of Us
GDR writes:
Percy writes:
By the definition of worship you provided earlier, I worship nothing. But I value food and water, shelter, family, friends, work and recreation, pretty much in that order. Private bathrooms rank pretty high, too. Oh, and hot showers.
I guess people can draw their own conclusions about that.
Yes, I suppose they will. That's why this is a public forum.
But it was addressed to you. You quoted Dylan's "ya gotta serve somebody" and insisted that worship was the only alternative, either of a God or something material. And as a way of pointing out that you're wrong I used myself as an example of someone who worships nothing, and of course I'm by no means alone in this. There are things that I value, but nothing that I worship. Obviously one doesn't have to worship something. You have no response?
Percy writes:
This is circular. Unless you're making stuff up about Jesus or listening to what other people make up, the only things you can "see" in Jesus come from the Bible.
I can also see that if His message of sacrificial love was applied to the world we would all be living far better lives as affirmation.
This is a non-answer. It is still circular to say that the portions of the Bible you choose are based on what you see in Jesus who you only know about from the Bible. Unless, as I said, you're making stuff up about Jesus or listening to what other people make up.
This isn't really a discussion. It's you making non-sequiturs, us pointing them out, and you ignoring them to continue repeating what you've been saying all along. Nothing we say seems to have any effect on you. It doesn't matter what we say, you just keep repeating yourself.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1038 by GDR, posted 10-20-2022 12:49 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1292 by Phat, posted 11-05-2022 11:12 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied
 Message 1339 by GDR, posted 11-09-2022 8:00 PM Percy has replied
 Message 1432 by GDR, posted 11-25-2022 8:04 PM Percy has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1292 of 3694 (901127)
11-05-2022 11:12 AM
Reply to: Message 1291 by Percy
11-05-2022 7:48 AM


Re: What does God want of Us
Admittedly the idea that Jesus is limited to a character In a book is not a part of my belief and I will ignore it repeatedly. Belief can and does go beyond evidence without being totally irrational.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1291 by Percy, posted 11-05-2022 7:48 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1293 by Theodoric, posted 11-05-2022 12:45 PM Phat has not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


(1)
Message 1293 of 3694 (901149)
11-05-2022 12:45 PM
Reply to: Message 1292 by Phat
11-05-2022 11:12 AM


Re: What does God want of Us
I dont think you understand what the word irrational.means.

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1292 by Phat, posted 11-05-2022 11:12 AM Phat has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 1294 of 3694 (901154)
11-05-2022 1:19 PM
Reply to: Message 1246 by Admin
11-02-2022 10:53 AM


Re: What does God want of Us
Admin writes:
The next time you post a message containing strange symbols, please point me to it.
Here is a post I’ll copy and paste with apostrophes in it. Can’t won’t ‘’’
I’ve printed this in MS Word and copied on to the reply page on EvC. Again, I get those symbols as well when I read a post when it is emailed to me.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1246 by Admin, posted 11-02-2022 10:53 AM Admin has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1303 by Admin, posted 11-05-2022 5:06 PM GDR has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 1295 of 3694 (901155)
11-05-2022 1:30 PM
Reply to: Message 1247 by Percy
11-02-2022 12:43 PM


Re: What does God want of Us
Percy writes:
Why are you harboring doubts that the God you've expressed belief in can fuel an everlasting fire? And it isn't people who bodily go to heaven or hell. It is souls. Jesus is the only person ever taken bodily into heaven. Of course the Bible equivocates quite a bit, so there's lots of room for interpretation.
I don't know what God can or or can't do, or for that matter, what He can choose to do or not to do.
My belief is that the eternal fire is the one we create for our selves when we descend into a being that is completely self focused and lose our sense of humanity.
Percy writes:
This is your gig. We have no secret powers for divining how you might answer. Please answer the question instead of being evasive.
If you read my reply to Ringo you would have seen that I agreed that he was correct and that it isn't a parable but an analysis.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1247 by Percy, posted 11-02-2022 12:43 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1445 by Percy, posted 11-26-2022 7:40 PM GDR has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 1296 of 3694 (901158)
11-05-2022 1:42 PM
Reply to: Message 1251 by PaulK
11-02-2022 4:18 PM


Re: What does God want of Us
PaulK writes:
As is too often the case, this doesn’t address the point, Christians generally hold that Jesus will fulfil the Messianic prophecies after the Second Coming. That’s the point of it.
Frankly I don't know what most Christians believe. However the messianic prophesies were about bringing about the end of the age which would be the end of Roman occupation.
GDR writes:
Not true for the early followers of Jesus
PaulK writes:
I disagree. I think that is EXACTLY what happened.
How about quoting what is what that I was replying to so I can know what you are talking about.
GDR writes:
The messianic stuff as you call it is an earthly thing with no connection to the second coming.
PaulK writes:
Most Christians disagree.
Maybe, and probably in the US.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1251 by PaulK, posted 11-02-2022 4:18 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1297 by PaulK, posted 11-05-2022 1:48 PM GDR has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 1297 of 3694 (901159)
11-05-2022 1:48 PM
Reply to: Message 1296 by GDR
11-05-2022 1:42 PM


Re: What does God want of Us
quote:
Frankly I don't know what most Christians believe. However the messianic prophesies were about bringing about the end of the age which would be the end of Roman occupation.

That is how they might be interpreted at the time of Jesus. It certainly isn’t how Jews interpret them now. Or how they were originally meant,
quote:
How about quoting what is what that I was replying to so I can know what you are talking about.
How about using the handy links at the bottom of each post to see?
To be clear my point is that I believe that Jesus did not fulfil the Messianic prophecies, so his followers - those that did not abandon the cult - made up excuses to get around that. Hence the Second Coming. (And please don’t suggest that they wouldn’t make up excuses - you certainly do).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1296 by GDR, posted 11-05-2022 1:42 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1340 by GDR, posted 11-09-2022 8:34 PM PaulK has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 1298 of 3694 (901160)
11-05-2022 1:59 PM
Reply to: Message 1255 by PaulK
11-02-2022 5:06 PM


Re: What does God want of Us
Paulk quoting wiki.
quote:
Around this time he had copied for him a Hebrew Gospel, of which fragments are preserved in his notes. It is known today as the Gospel of the Hebrews which the Nazarenes considered to be the true Gospel of Matthew.Jerome translated parts of this Hebrew Gospel into Greek.
That fits with what I believe. Matthew wrote his Gospel first in Hebrew and that is the one the Nazoreans held on to. It was later that someone, most likely Matthew again translated it into a Greek version.
GDR writes:
Sure, it is John's theology that explains the views of the early Christians as that sort out the meaning that they could glean from Jesus' teachings and also of His resurrection.
PaulK writes:
But your original claim was that the phrase itself was all that was needed. Which is rather obviously not supported by quoting theology which makes a similar claim for other reasons.
When John writes that the Word became flesh, he is making a statement that is holistically consistent with the whole NT. I'm not 100% sure what your point is.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1255 by PaulK, posted 11-02-2022 5:06 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1299 by PaulK, posted 11-05-2022 2:19 PM GDR has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 1299 of 3694 (901162)
11-05-2022 2:19 PM
Reply to: Message 1298 by GDR
11-05-2022 1:59 PM


Re: What does God want of Us
quote:
That fits with what I believe. Matthew wrote his Gospel first in Hebrew and that is the one the Nazoreans held on to. It was later that someone, most likely Matthew again translated it into a Greek version
So you think that the Gospel of the Hebrews is the real Gospel written by Matthew, not the one we call “Matthew”? Because that is what you just said,
quote:
When John writes that the Word became flesh, he is making a statement that is holistically consistent with the whole NT. I'm not 100% sure what your point is.
My point is that your original claim - which only used the phrase “Son of Man” - was false.
Also the Jewish nation at had two particular hopes for the future. One was the return of Yahweh to their nation and the other was that of a messiah who would be a man anointed by God to lead them against Rome. The Gospels story essentially sees Jesus as fulfilling both of those hopes but in a very different way than what the Jews expected.

Jesus used the term "son of man" which combined both hopes.
It is not the term at all. It is Christian beliefs added after Jesus’ death.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1298 by GDR, posted 11-05-2022 1:59 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1341 by GDR, posted 11-09-2022 8:55 PM PaulK has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 1300 of 3694 (901163)
11-05-2022 2:34 PM
Reply to: Message 1257 by Tangle
11-02-2022 5:49 PM


Re: What does God want of Us
Tangle writes:
I dunno GDR, this stuff just makes me feel tired and frustrated. Maybe I'll attempt a futile answer to what you say here but more likely I won't - because, well, it's futile.

The point I'm trying to make is that there is no real historicity for Jesus, let alone the miraculous stuff he's supposed to have done and how he saved the world an' all. Sure, there's acres of shelf space for Christian scholars and apologists but there's virtually no peer reviewed history. There should be so much that it's beyond all doubt, but there's virtually none.

Jesus, if real, would be the most important guy that ever lived. But there's no factual evidence of him actually even existing! It's bizarre. We shouldn't even be able to have this discussion, it should be obvious to everyone. But it's not, simply because he left no historical footprint, just an enormous mythology.
OK, nothing I can say will convince you otherwise so I'll turn to wiki, a non-Christian source.
Historicity of Jesus
Here are some quotes from that page.
quote:
The question of the historicity of Jesus is part of the study of the historical Jesus as undertaken in the quest for the historical Jesus and the scholarly reconstructions of the life of Jesus. Virtually all scholars of antiquity accept that Jesus was a historical figure, although interpretations of a number of the events mentioned in the gospels (most notably his miracles and resurrection) vary and are a subject of debate Standard historical criteria have aided in evaluating the historicity of the gospel narratives, and only two key events are subject to "almost universal assent", namely that Jesus was baptized by John the Baptist and crucified by order of the Roman Prefect Pontius Pilate.
quote:
Virtually all scholars of antiquity agree that a historical human Jesus existed. Historian Michael Grant asserts that if conventional standards of historical textual criticism are applied to the New Testament, "we can no more reject Jesus' existence than we can reject the existence of a mass of pagan personages whose reality as historical figures is never questioned.
quote:
Virtually all scholars of antiquity see the theories of his non-existence as effectively refuted, and in modern scholarship, the Christ myth theory is a fringe theory and finds virtually no support from scholars.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1257 by Tangle, posted 11-02-2022 5:49 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1302 by Tangle, posted 11-05-2022 4:45 PM GDR has replied
 Message 1455 by Percy, posted 11-27-2022 9:07 PM GDR has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 1301 of 3694 (901168)
11-05-2022 3:10 PM
Reply to: Message 1259 by Tangle
11-03-2022 2:41 AM


Re: What does God want of Us
Tangle writes:
Like you, I don't have any first hand knowledge of the bible, other than having read it. I get my information from historians. It's mainstream scholarship that the Sermon on the Mount wasn't said by Jesus, it's a complex literary creation based on previous texts. This is a summary -

"The Sermon on the Mount relies on the Septuagint Greek version of Deuteronomy and Leviticus, so it doesn’t go back to a Hebrew or Aramaic source. Matthew also redacts other Greek scriptures like “turn the other cheek” taken from Isaiah 50:6-9. The sermon has a literary structure so it didn’t originate in oral tradition, and it deals with issues that would have come up after Jesus died, so it didn’t originate with him. The sermon also assumes the temple doesn’t exist, so it had to have been written after the destruction of the temple in 70 AD. It also addresses the rabbinical argument that followed the destruction of the temple."

ie Matthew made it up.

The analysis of written rather than oral structure comes from this peer reviewed paper. I wish you luck with it.

https://biblicalstudies.org.uk/pdf/jbl/1987_allison.pdf
I went through that link and to understand it properly I needed not just luck but scholarly skills that I don't possess.
One thought tough that could give credence to the passages accuracy is that there did exist at the time the capability of using Greek shorthand. It is conceivable that much of what Jesus said could have been taken down in shorthand and transcribed later. I obviously have no evidence for this but it is conceivable.
Early Greek Short hand
I know this doesn't deal specifically with your point, but I guess we are back to what we believe.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1259 by Tangle, posted 11-03-2022 2:41 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1304 by Tangle, posted 11-05-2022 5:53 PM GDR has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 1302 of 3694 (901178)
11-05-2022 4:45 PM
Reply to: Message 1300 by GDR
11-05-2022 2:34 PM


Re: What does God want of Us
GDR writes:
OK, nothing I can say will convince you otherwise
Of course you could! You believers just never get it. You could convince me with convincing evidence. I'm really easy to convince, just show me something convincing. We're not doing anything hard here, all we're trying to establish is if the guy in the centre of the story actually existed. It should be really easy, but it isn't because there is no actual historical evidence.
And it wouldn't matter if he had existed, the really hard bit is finding the evidence that the miraculous stuff he's supposed to have done actually happened and isn't just the story telling of the time.
so I'll turn to wiki, a non-Christian source.
Wiki - the website - is a non-Christian source, it's who posts there that makes it Christian or otherwise. Almost every biblical "scholar" is a Christian and most are not historians, they're theologians. Read some non-Christian stuff, get a full view.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1300 by GDR, posted 11-05-2022 2:34 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1348 by GDR, posted 11-10-2022 5:11 PM Tangle has replied

  
Admin
Director
Posts: 12998
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 1303 of 3694 (901182)
11-05-2022 5:06 PM
Reply to: Message 1294 by GDR
11-05-2022 1:19 PM


Re: What does God want of Us
GDR writes:
Here is a post I’ll copy and paste with apostrophes in it. Can’t won’t ‘’’
I’ve printed this in MS Word and copied on to the reply page on EvC. Again, I get those symbols as well when I read a post when it is emailed to me.
Are you saying there are strange symbols in the above text? I don't see them in Chrome, Firefox, Edge or Safari.
Is anyone else seeing strange symbols?

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1294 by GDR, posted 11-05-2022 1:19 PM GDR has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1305 by Theodoric, posted 11-06-2022 12:41 AM Admin has not replied
 Message 1315 by Admin, posted 11-08-2022 6:53 AM Admin has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 1304 of 3694 (901186)
11-05-2022 5:53 PM
Reply to: Message 1301 by GDR
11-05-2022 3:10 PM


Re: What does God want of Us
GDR writes:
I went through that link and to understand it properly I needed not just luck but scholarly skills that I don't possess.
I did warn you, but I also gave you the summary, the crux being that the "speech" is a literary construct not an oral one. It's written not spoken.
That's the text but it's also out of its time, there are things referred to as history that hadn't yet happened - and it's not a prophecy.
I know this doesn't deal specifically with your point, but I guess we are back to what we believe.
The point is that it was never spoken. That's mainstream scholarship.. But sure, you prefer to believe something else.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1301 by GDR, posted 11-05-2022 3:10 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1349 by GDR, posted 11-10-2022 5:22 PM Tangle has replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 1305 of 3694 (901210)
11-06-2022 12:41 AM
Reply to: Message 1303 by Admin
11-05-2022 5:06 PM


Text is fine
Nope

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1303 by Admin, posted 11-05-2022 5:06 PM Admin has not replied

  
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