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Author
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Topic: Choosing a faith
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Percy
Member Posts: 22490 From: New Hampshire Joined: 12-23-2000 Member Rating: 5.0
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Message 811 of 3694 (898900)
10-02-2022 5:34 PM
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Reply to: Message 795 by GDR
10-01-2022 4:38 PM
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Re: What does God want of Us
GDR writes: Percy writes: Well then, go ahead and use hate and rage and greed and vengefulness as evidence of God. I'd really like to see that.
See my reply to Tangle. post 789 If you write [msg=789] then you'll get Message 789, which is a link to that message. Reading that message, I don't understand why you think it's an answer. You argued that good is evidence of God, and that free will providing the ability to choose between good and evil is also evidence of God. That makes sense to you? And looking at Tangle's response in Message 805, he didn't see it as an answer, either. To you both a beautiful flower and a good samaritan helping a little old lady across the street are evidence of God. But what are an ugly weed or beating up a little old lady evidence of? --Percy
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 795 by GDR, posted 10-01-2022 4:38 PM | | GDR has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 830 by GDR, posted 10-03-2022 2:49 PM | | Percy has replied |
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GDR
Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: 05-22-2005 Member Rating: 2.1
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Message 812 of 3694 (898901)
10-02-2022 6:31 PM
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Reply to: Message 802 by nwr
10-01-2022 6:12 PM
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Re: What does God want of Us
nwr writes: That's not a real argument. Our interaction with our environment also affects the brain chemistry. The chemical reactions in the brain are responses to what is happening around us. Personally, I think we have some sort of free will, but I cannot define what that means. In the end though it is all chemical reactions. If that is all our thoughts are then why do we believe that a murderer should be punished. How can he/she be held responsible for simple chemical reactions.
nwr writes: Then that woman was not brain dead and was not in a vegetative state.
That is correct. I without intention misrepresented her condition.
nwr writes: The belief that the placebo will help does likely have material effects on the brain. GDR writes: Yes, although no physical change took place. If there were material effects, there were physical changes. But those physical changes might have been too small to easily detect. It seems to me that for a healing to take place from a placebo caused a physical change that the change would be large enough to detect. I suggest again that sounds like "science of the gaps".
He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 802 by nwr, posted 10-01-2022 6:12 PM | | nwr has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 815 by nwr, posted 10-02-2022 8:41 PM | | GDR has replied |
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GDR
Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: 05-22-2005 Member Rating: 2.1
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Message 813 of 3694 (898902)
10-02-2022 6:44 PM
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Reply to: Message 803 by AZPaul3
10-01-2022 6:15 PM
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Re: What does God want of Us
GDR writes: Are you saying then that free will is an illusion and that what I will have for dinner a week from Monday is pre-determined, and that I am not really choosing what it will be? AZPaul3 writes: A week from now? I wouldn't think so, no. That is too far into the future to determine so precisely. There are too many variables still available before the march of time constricts those choices even more. Let's look at baseball. A pitch is thrown. Is it predetermined that the batter will swing? Doesn't the batter have a choice right up to the last split second?
AZPaul3 writes: The damage was not enough to destroy her consciousness. So she was neither vegetative nor brain dead. So what the hell was that part in Message 791 about? She had been totally non-responsive for 7 months. With the brain scan it was found that even though her brain had been very badly damaged physically she still understood all that was going on around her. This is all beyond me but it seemed important enough for this woman with a PHD in brain imaging to find it significant in the discussion of consciousness.
He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 803 by AZPaul3, posted 10-01-2022 6:15 PM | | AZPaul3 has replied |
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GDR
Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: 05-22-2005 Member Rating: 2.1
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Message 814 of 3694 (898903)
10-02-2022 8:32 PM
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Reply to: Message 804 by Percy
10-01-2022 6:17 PM
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Re: What does God want of Us
Percy writes: What kind of evidence do you mean you keep getting asked for? Do you mean physical evidence, or material evidence, or real-world evidence, or whatever you want to call actual for-real evidence? Yes, we keep asking for that kind of evidence, because there is no other kind of evidence. If you think there are other kinds of evidence, as you argued earlier in the thread, then you have yet to make a case for it. Again, no one is challenging or attacking your spiritual beliefs. We're challenging your claim that you have evidence for your beliefs. I contend that intelligence, emotions, altruism, etc are evidence . You guys say they're not. Where can we go from there? I contend that the Bible is evidence as well as other holy books for that matter. There is no evidence that can be repeated in a lab.
Percy writes: The question was how the negative emotions are as much evidence for God as the positive ones. Emotions can be positive or negative. It is my conclusion that all emotions exist because of an intelligent root. It is my subjective conclusion which forms my beliefs. You and others come to your materialistic conclusions. I am not trying to draw an equivalence between the alternatives as that would be impossible and irrelevant.
Percy writes: Your diversion onto Dirckx is a red herring. OK, but it my guess would be that nobody on this forum has the level of expertise that she has with her PHD in brain imaging, so just maybe she can be quoted as an authority on the relationship between the brain and consciousness.
He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 804 by Percy, posted 10-01-2022 6:17 PM | | Percy has replied |
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nwr
Member Posts: 6410 From: Geneva, Illinois Joined: 08-08-2005 Member Rating: 5.3
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Message 815 of 3694 (898904)
10-02-2022 8:41 PM
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Reply to: Message 812 by GDR
10-02-2022 6:31 PM
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Re: What does God want of Us
In the end though it is all chemical reactions. If that is all our thoughts are then why do we believe that a murderer should be punished. This is surely wrong. The thoughts are not the chemical reactions. Rather, the chemical reactions are an implementation detail. Suppose you drive from Sidney to Vancouver. That works by chemical reactions. So your motion is just chemical reactions, and therefore you could never get to Vancouver. I have just paraphrased your argument to show that it is problematic.
It seems to me that for a healing to take place from a placebo caused a physical change that the change would be large enough to detect. We detect the healing. But we may not be able to identify the specific physical changes. The brain is not static. There are physical changes going on all the time. And your brain is not isomorphic to my brain, so we don't have a general theory to explain the details of what changes.
I suggest again that sounds like "science of the gaps". Yes, there are many gaps in our knowledge.
Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 812 by GDR, posted 10-02-2022 6:31 PM | | GDR has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 833 by GDR, posted 10-03-2022 3:30 PM | | nwr has replied |
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Tangle
Member Posts: 9509 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 4.8
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Message 816 of 3694 (898905)
10-03-2022 3:31 AM
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Reply to: Message 814 by GDR
10-02-2022 8:32 PM
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Re: What does God want of Us
GDR writes: I contend that intelligence, emotions, altruism, etc are evidence. […] Emotions can be positive or negative. It is my conclusion that all emotions exist because of an intelligent root. You can't simply conclude - ie assert - that. If you want to make a rational, rather than belief based argument you need to explain why. The scientific position is that emotions - both positive ones like love and negative ones like anger and neutral ones like fear - are evolved traits like all other traits. They're primitive functions with strong survival advantages. They're evident in many animals, not just humans. Emotions are evidence of our lack of free will. We have very little control over them. We can't switch them off so they can have no effect on us. They're reflex reaction to something happening outside ourselves that might harm us or might advantage us. They cause the unconscious release of chemicals in our bodies that change our physical behaviour without asking permission. They have primitive survival advantages but in complex modern societies can also have devastating consequences. I therefore do not understand how emotions are different from any other evolved trait and therefore specific evidence of god.
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine. "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 814 by GDR, posted 10-02-2022 8:32 PM | | GDR has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 837 by GDR, posted 10-03-2022 8:47 PM | | Tangle has replied |
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Percy
Member Posts: 22490 From: New Hampshire Joined: 12-23-2000 Member Rating: 5.0
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Message 817 of 3694 (898906)
10-03-2022 9:13 AM
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Reply to: Message 796 by GDR
10-01-2022 4:46 PM
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Re: What does God want of Us
GDR writes: Percy writes: But what religion explains keeps shrinking as it is forced to give up more and more ground to science. The advancements in science simply tells us more and more about How a cosmic intelligence brought about our existence. You can only believe in a "cosmic intelligence" as an article of faith.
The fact that science gave us a natural explanation of lightening doesn't diminish God in the least. No one said it diminishes God. If you choose to see it that way that's your business. But it does reduce the number of natural phenomena that can be attributed to God. --Percy
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 796 by GDR, posted 10-01-2022 4:46 PM | | GDR has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 838 by GDR, posted 10-03-2022 8:55 PM | | Percy has replied |
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Percy
Member Posts: 22490 From: New Hampshire Joined: 12-23-2000 Member Rating: 5.0
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Message 818 of 3694 (898907)
10-03-2022 9:36 AM
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Reply to: Message 814 by GDR
10-02-2022 8:32 PM
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Re: What does God want of Us
GDR writes: I contend that intelligence, emotions, altruism, etc are evidence . You guys say they're not. Where can we go from there? I don't think anyone here is saying that intelligence, emotions, altruism, etc., are not evidence. I think we're saying that they're abstractions of processes that do have a material existence. For example, intelligence is an abstraction that you can try to measure, but we have a lot of trouble even defining intelligence. At heart it can only be an emergent property of brain activity. Without a brain there is no intelligence, no emotions, no altruism, etc.
I contend that the Bible is evidence as well as other holy books for that matter. I thought you wanted to avoid discussion of evidence. I'll help you do that if that's what you really want to do.
There is no evidence that can be repeated in a lab. Historical events are never repeated in a lab. That isn't the way history works. We don't accept the Napoleonic Wars because they were replicated in a lab. We accept them because of the massive amount of evidence they left behind, physical, documentary and narrative. --Percy
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 814 by GDR, posted 10-02-2022 8:32 PM | | GDR has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 819 by Theodoric, posted 10-03-2022 10:05 AM | | Percy has seen this message but not replied | | | Message 839 by GDR, posted 10-03-2022 9:06 PM | | Percy has replied |
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Theodoric
Member Posts: 9197 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: 08-15-2005 Member Rating: 3.2
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Message 819 of 3694 (898908)
10-03-2022 10:05 AM
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Reply to: Message 818 by Percy
10-03-2022 9:36 AM
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History and evidence
And like science history does not deal in truths. All history can go on is the weight of evidence.
What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness. If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 818 by Percy, posted 10-03-2022 9:36 AM | | Percy has seen this message but not replied |
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GDR
Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: 05-22-2005 Member Rating: 2.1
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Message 820 of 3694 (898913)
10-03-2022 1:10 PM
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Reply to: Message 805 by Tangle
10-01-2022 6:59 PM
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Re: What does God want of Us
Tangle writes: You know that is not an answer to my question. Please try again. Why are emotions such as hate vidence of god?
I see all emotions good and bad as evidence of a cosmic intelligence. (I use that term so that it isn't specific to any faith.) I contend it is all part of free will. Under the same circumstance different people have different responses. and any one individual can respond differently to the same circumstance from one day to the next.
He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 805 by Tangle, posted 10-01-2022 6:59 PM | | Tangle has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 824 by Tangle, posted 10-03-2022 1:31 PM | | GDR has replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18335 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.0
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Message 821 of 3694 (898914)
10-03-2022 1:10 PM
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Reply to: Message 755 by GDR
09-30-2022 2:15 PM
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Re: What does God want of Us
GDR writes: I contend that intelligence, emotions, altruism, etc are evidence. […] Emotions can be positive or negative. It is my conclusion that all emotions exist because of an intelligent root.
Tangle writes: You can't simply conclude - ie assert - that. If you want to make a rational, rather than belief based argument you need to explain why. My 2 cents is based on what Percy said earlier.
Percy writes: Evidence is what we observe, and we can only observe through our five senses. If you cannot see it, hear it, feel it, taste it or smell it then it isn't observational evidence. Unlike dwise1, I most definitely know when I have been touched by the Holy Spiit vs passing gas from a bad burrito 
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 755 by GDR, posted 09-30-2022 2:15 PM | | GDR has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 822 by ringo, posted 10-03-2022 1:12 PM | | Phat has seen this message but not replied | | | Message 840 by GDR, posted 10-03-2022 9:19 PM | | Phat has not replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 438 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 822 of 3694 (898915)
10-03-2022 1:12 PM
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Reply to: Message 821 by Phat
10-03-2022 1:10 PM
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Re: What does God want of Us
Phat writes: Unlike dwise1, I most definitely know when I have been touched by the Holy Spiit vs passing gas from a bad burrito
The question is HOW do you know?
"Oh no, They've gone and named my home St. Petersburg.
What's going on? Where are all the friends I had?
It's all wrong, I'm feeling lost like I just don't belong.
Give me back, give me back my Leningrad."
-- Leningrad Cowboys
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 821 by Phat, posted 10-03-2022 1:10 PM | | Phat has seen this message but not replied |
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GDR
Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: 05-22-2005 Member Rating: 2.1
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Message 823 of 3694 (898916)
10-03-2022 1:26 PM
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Reply to: Message 806 by ringo
10-01-2022 9:23 PM
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Re: What does God want of Us
ringo writes: MY point is that you have not distinguished YOUR faith from any other faith. In a topic titled Choosing a faith, shouldn't we be comparing faiths instead of just making assertions about one faith? OK, I'll try this again. I was reading through some of the posts on the forum. One post talked about the myriad of titles for god over the centuries to make an anti-theistic point. The thread in question was enormously long so I thought that I would start a new thread. I guess I could have come up with a better title. My point was that the title or name assigned to a deity isn't what is important. What is important is what you believe is the character and nature of whatever deity you choose, and how that choice impacts your life, whether it be God Allah Zeus etc. In most ways my argument is more with theists, and being a Christian myself most pointedly it is aimed at Christians.
He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 806 by ringo, posted 10-01-2022 9:23 PM | | ringo has replied |
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Tangle
Member Posts: 9509 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 4.8
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Message 824 of 3694 (898917)
10-03-2022 1:31 PM
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Reply to: Message 820 by GDR
10-03-2022 1:10 PM
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Re: What does God want of Us
GDR writes: I see all emotions good and bad as evidence of a cosmic intelligence. (I use that term so that it isn't specific to any faith.) But WHY? You need to explain why an emotions such as hate is evidence of god. (I use that term because that's what you mean - "god" doesn't mean "Christian God" it just means a god and there have been thousands of them, Christians don't own the term.)
I contend it is all part of free will.
Please see message 816, it's actually evidence that free will is a best bounded and limited - we can not choose to react or not react to the reflex chemical intrusions caused by our emotions. It's primitive animalistic behaviour.
Under the same circumstance different people have different responses. and any one individual can respond differently to the same circumstance from one day to the next.
Why on earth is that evidence of god?
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine. "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 820 by GDR, posted 10-03-2022 1:10 PM | | GDR has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 841 by GDR, posted 10-03-2022 9:37 PM | | Tangle has not replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 438 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 825 of 3694 (898918)
10-03-2022 1:35 PM
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Reply to: Message 823 by GDR
10-03-2022 1:26 PM
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Re: What does God want of Us
GDR writes: My point was that the title or name assigned to a deity isn't what is important.
But it isn't just the name that's different. The god that you make up is all sunshine and lollipops; he loves everybody and wants to make their lives all snuggly and warm. On the other hand, the god that Phat makes up can't decide whether he loves us or hates us; he gleefully sets traps to "train" us and doesn't care if we are maimed or killed. But what does any of that have to do with reality? Why wouldn't you choose a realistic god?
"Oh no, They've gone and named my home St. Petersburg.
What's going on? Where are all the friends I had?
It's all wrong, I'm feeling lost like I just don't belong.
Give me back, give me back my Leningrad."
-- Leningrad Cowboys
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 823 by GDR, posted 10-03-2022 1:26 PM | | GDR has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 844 by GDR, posted 10-04-2022 1:35 PM | | ringo has replied | | | Message 858 by Phat, posted 10-05-2022 3:13 AM | | ringo has replied |
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