|
Author
|
Topic: Choosing a faith
|
AZPaul3
Member Posts: 8536 From: Phoenix Joined: 11-06-2006 Member Rating: 5.0
|
|
Message 421 of 3694 (897653)
09-09-2022 3:39 PM
|
Reply to: Message 408 by Phat
09-09-2022 7:40 AM
|
|
Re: Come To The Dark Side.
You get hyper emotional in describing the God character and organized religion as a destructive monster. No, I just collect the facts. The conclusions draw themselves for the consensus.
I, on the other hand having never limited God nor Jesus as mere written characteristic behaviors in a static book am able to be at peace with the idea that the God of this moment is good. Yes, dive deeper into the fantasy. Always an available choice. Good thinking.
The only disconnect in all of this is that you don't seek to entertain that a particular human could be eternal and could love us all so selflessly. Yeah, that human with that mythology, along with unicorns and, I think leprechauns were mentioned. Yes, I don’t entertain a lot of silliness. Doctor says it's not good for my diet.
All that really matters in my mind is that we can disagree and yet communicate so well in the here and now. Well, I wouldn’t say that is all that really matters but such does seem to make things more pleasant than otherwise. Agreed.
Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 408 by Phat, posted 09-09-2022 7:40 AM | | Phat has seen this message but not replied |
|
GDR
Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: 05-22-2005 Member Rating: 2.1
|
|
|
Message 422 of 3694 (897654)
09-09-2022 4:17 PM
|
Reply to: Message 381 by Percy
09-08-2022 10:25 AM
|
|
Re: What does God want of Us
Percy writes: Comenius? Did you mean consensus? To the extent the Golden Rule is common to all religions and no religions it is a reflection of our inherent morality. It certainly isn't a reflection of a consensus formed among all the world religions. There is no indication, historical or otherwise, that religions worked together toward forming any consensus on this. But my main point was the lack of evidence. Were there actual evidence of spiritual truths then the world's religions would have built consensuses around these truths. They haven't. Because there's no evidence. Which you keep forgetting by instead saying things like "information from the world," which is just evidence, which you don't have. Ya, consensus. (Spell correction seems to do funny things.) The Golden Rule is nothing like washing your hands before dinner. It is one all encompassing rule. If everyone followed it we could do away with war, poverty etc. Just what other spiritual truth do you think we should have consensus on? Yes each religion has its own theology but so what. Sure as a Christian I believe in a resurrected Jesus, that through Him the Gospels reflect accurately, (not necessarily word for word), the will and nature of God. Both the Muslim and Jewish faiths view Him as a prophet. Gandhi a Hindu said this: ""I have not been able to move beyond the belief that Jesus was one of the great teachers of mankind. Do you not think that religious unity is to be had not by a mechanical subscription to a common creed but by all respecting the creed of each?". There was a lot of overlap between Buddism and Christianity early in the Christian era, (particularly in the east but also in Egypt), and there is considerable overlap in the teachings of Jesus and the Buddha.
Percy writes: But this was about your changing religious views. Now it seems like you're saying there's only one timeless truth and that's the Golden Rule. But if there's only one timeless truth and you've already found it, then what are you seeking? Good question. I think it matters how we can relate to God or whatever name you want to attach. I think that truth matters an in the church I see acts of love and charity that I don't see in other institutions. I agree that the church is far from perfect and too often gets involved in disputes concerning theology and how to apply it. It definitely has its warts. So yes, I think that, and I'm in a small majority here, that God through Jesus has given us a picture of how we are to relate to the world. That is my conclusion. There is no scientific evidence as such and it is a faith. I also contend that overall the best way to spread His love for the world is collectively through the church.
He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 381 by Percy, posted 09-08-2022 10:25 AM | | Percy has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 435 by Percy, posted 09-10-2022 8:29 AM | | GDR has not replied |
|
Tangle
Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 4.8
|
|
|
Message 423 of 3694 (897655)
09-09-2022 4:20 PM
|
Reply to: Message 417 by Phat
09-09-2022 1:26 PM
|
|
Re: God Save The Monarch
Phat writes: God approved of none of them. Who are you to speak for God?
Man, acting on his own behalf, ceremoniously inducted them. Well yes, of course mandidit, but they believed a lot more fervently than you do in the bible and Jesus. They gave, you don’t.
Everyone is quick to call God (character in the book specifically) a monster, yet it is man who initiates wars, promotes and deposes Monarchs, and prints money excessively. God is folding His arms waiting for us to come to the end of ourselves. Critics like you would argue that were God actually real, He was either sleeping on the job or a monster. I’m talking about the real history of your religion, not some of your made up nonsense. What real people actually did in the name of your god. And in the recent past too, not a thousand years ago. Get yourself a passport and visit ‘old Europe’ and see it for yourself. You wouldn’t recognise your religion just a couple of hundred years ago. Same belief, different apologetics. I believe that He knows what He is doing and is no monster. The question remains if humans know what THEY are doing. Nobody reads passed ‘I believe that…’ We know it’s followed by a load of nonsense.
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine. "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 417 by Phat, posted 09-09-2022 1:26 PM | | Phat has seen this message but not replied |
|
GDR
Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: 05-22-2005 Member Rating: 2.1
|
|
|
Message 424 of 3694 (897656)
09-09-2022 4:45 PM
|
Reply to: Message 383 by Percy
09-08-2022 10:57 AM
|
|
Percy writes: You said that Krauss's claim of plausibility implied that other ideas must also be plausible. Tangle and I both assumed you were implying that it was your own ideas that must also be plausible, but you're saying that we were wrong to assume that. So now let's be very clear about what you claim you were saying. When you said that Krauss's claim of plausibility implied that other ideas must also be plausible, you were not in any way implying that it made your own ideas plausible. But since it's your ideas we're discussing, how is this in any way relevant? It isn't, of course, and so I don't believe you. You were clearly implying it was your own ideas that Krauss's claim rendered plausible. I'm saying that his statement was about other views were plausible. My views would presumably in the mix. There could be overlap between various beliefs.
Percy writes: You're just continuing your strategy of trying to sneak in a wording that grants your ideas validity but that we won't object to, and you're doing this by being obfuscative. It won't work. Thanks for thinking that I have the intelligence and literary skills to be able to do that. That confidence is misplaced unfortunately.
He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 383 by Percy, posted 09-08-2022 10:57 AM | | Percy has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 437 by Percy, posted 09-10-2022 9:28 AM | | GDR has not replied |
|
GDR
Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: 05-22-2005 Member Rating: 2.1
(1)
| |
| |
| |
|
|
Message 425 of 3694 (897657)
09-09-2022 5:15 PM
|
Reply to: Message 393 by AZPaul3
09-08-2022 3:41 PM
|
|
AZPaul3 writes: There is that superiority showing again. There is no "The" bible. There are hundreds of them. But those others don't necessarily lead to the comforting attributes you ascribe to your favorite flavor of god so they have to be labeled as wrong. Bad bibles. Heretical bibles. Products of evil doers out to subvert the path to god. Kill the heretics! Kill the heretics! You just set up a strawman. I take Jesus as the authority and read all of the Bible through that lens. As john Polkinghorne says you can't have both a god that commands genocide and public stoning with the God portrayed by Jesus that says we are to love our enemy and turn the other cheek. It is also necessary to look at the context of the times in which the Bible was written.
He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 393 by AZPaul3, posted 09-08-2022 3:41 PM | | AZPaul3 has replied |
|
GDR
Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: 05-22-2005 Member Rating: 2.1
|
|
|
Message 426 of 3694 (897663)
09-09-2022 7:30 PM
|
Reply to: Message 395 by Taq
09-08-2022 3:48 PM
|
|
Re: What does God want of Us
Taq writes: We can see that chemical reactions exist. Not so with gods. That would seem to tip the balance towards chemical reactions. Maybe the chemical reactions exist because of the gods. How would you know?
Taq writes: At no point have we had a suspected natural cause turn out to be the outcome of a known and verifiable supernatural process. Well ya, if a suspected natural cause is from a supernatural source it can't be known or verified by the scientific process. It would just remain a mystery.
He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 395 by Taq, posted 09-08-2022 3:48 PM | | Taq has not replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 431 by AZPaul3, posted 09-09-2022 7:54 PM | | GDR has replied |
|
AZPaul3
Member Posts: 8536 From: Phoenix Joined: 11-06-2006 Member Rating: 5.0
|
|
|
Message 427 of 3694 (897664)
09-09-2022 7:31 PM
|
Reply to: Message 425 by GDR
09-09-2022 5:15 PM
|
|
As john Polkinghorne says you can't have both a god that commands genocide and public stoning with the God portrayed by Jesus that says we are to love our enemy and turn the other cheek. Sure you can. You can have whatever mix of contradictory traits you want in your fantasy.
I take Jesus as the authority and read all of the Bible through that lens. Which bible? Strawman or no there are still hundreds of them.
It is also necessary to look at the context of the times in which the Bible was written. Yes, 3500-2000 years ago when man, apparently, was at the height of his intellectual powers.
Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 425 by GDR, posted 09-09-2022 5:15 PM | | GDR has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 438 by GDR, posted 09-10-2022 1:15 PM | | AZPaul3 has replied |
|
GDR
Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: 05-22-2005 Member Rating: 2.1
|
|
|
Message 428 of 3694 (897665)
09-09-2022 7:32 PM
|
Reply to: Message 399 by AZPaul3
09-08-2022 4:43 PM
|
|
Re: What does God want of Us
AZPaul3 writes: You think sentience is an evolutionary plus for the planet? Good question. 
He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 399 by AZPaul3, posted 09-08-2022 4:43 PM | | AZPaul3 has not replied |
|
GDR
Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: 05-22-2005 Member Rating: 2.1
|
(1)
| |
| |
| |
|
|
Message 429 of 3694 (897666)
09-09-2022 7:40 PM
|
Reply to: Message 402 by Tangle
09-08-2022 5:53 PM
|
|
Re: What does God want of Us
Tangle writes: You may well disagree, but your disagreement is irrational - there is no equivalence in the two positions and I suspect you know it, you're not a stupid guy, just deluded. It boils down to the weight that you put on the possibility that life and consciousness can arrive without any external intelligence. I put that possibility being remote. There is no way of discerning equivalence it is simply belief based on our pre-determined conclusion of how we view our existence..
He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 402 by Tangle, posted 09-08-2022 5:53 PM | | Tangle has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 447 by Tangle, posted 09-10-2022 3:07 PM | | GDR has replied |
|
GDR
Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: 05-22-2005 Member Rating: 2.1
|
|
|
Message 430 of 3694 (897667)
09-09-2022 7:46 PM
|
Reply to: Message 405 by Phat
09-08-2022 8:03 PM
|
|
Re: God Save The Monarch
Hi Phat
Phat writes: On a related note, I noticed that the ceremony for the transfer of power to Charles III is an Anglican church service. It is odd how humans anthropomorphize at times. Not sure how you mean that. Maybe they hold the service in an Anglican church because God is an Anglican you know.
He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 405 by Phat, posted 09-08-2022 8:03 PM | | Phat has not replied |
|
AZPaul3
Member Posts: 8536 From: Phoenix Joined: 11-06-2006 Member Rating: 5.0
|
|
|
Message 431 of 3694 (897669)
09-09-2022 7:54 PM
|
Reply to: Message 426 by GDR
09-09-2022 7:30 PM
|
|
Re: What does God want of Us
Maybe the chemical reactions exist because of the gods. Why would you propose such a thing?
Well ya, if a suspected natural cause is from a supernatural source it can't be known or verified by the scientific process. It would just remain a mystery. And you know this how? You have experience with supernatural sources masquerading as natural processes? What possible reason is there to consider such a thing? Just because you can pull it out your butt? If that's the case then I say you, GDR, are an animorph assigned by Czar Putin to disrupt American morals through religious lies. And since you are an unaware dupe in this scheme you know nothing of your true life. I have no evidence and neither do you. I win and you must acknowledge that I'm as right as you are.
Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 426 by GDR, posted 09-09-2022 7:30 PM | | GDR has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 439 by GDR, posted 09-10-2022 1:21 PM | | AZPaul3 has replied |
|
GDR
Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: 05-22-2005 Member Rating: 2.1
|
|
|
Message 432 of 3694 (897674)
09-09-2022 8:10 PM
|
Reply to: Message 410 by Percy
09-09-2022 10:21 AM
|
|
Re: What does God want of Us
Percy writes: You said that morality makes sense if we start from a theistic position. For the source of that theistic position I went to the Bible, which is "internally inconsistent and contradictory (there's a reason they're called apologists) and externally fantastical and wrong." In addition you concede that it isn't evidence, anyway. Firstly remember that the Bible is 66 books with likely hundreds of authors involved. It would look contrived if there wasn't disagreement.
Percy writes: Where is your evidence, GDR? You've said several times that you draw your conclusions from observing the world around us, which is the very definition of evidence. So what's your evidence? Please end this merry-go-round of the contradictory. "I have no evidence, but I do have my observations of the world around us." Evidence is evidence, and observations of the world around us are evidence. You can't claim you both have evidence and don't. OK, I'll try again but I will only be told that it doesn't count as evidence. 1/Conscious life exists in a body that is made up of mindless particles. 2/Sentient intelligent life exists. 3/We sense right and wrong and have a sense of morality capable of altruism. 4/We can find beauty in nature and we are able to create beauty in picture and song. 5/We are able to find coherence in our universe through science. 6/We exist as individuals and can never experience someone else's experience. 7/The whole process of the creation of new life is so remarkable Anyway, that's off the top of my head.
He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 410 by Percy, posted 09-09-2022 10:21 AM | | Percy has replied |
|
GDR
Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: 05-22-2005 Member Rating: 2.1
|
|
|
Message 433 of 3694 (897676)
09-09-2022 8:14 PM
|
Reply to: Message 420 by Taq
09-09-2022 2:45 PM
|
|
Re: What does God want of Us
Taq writes: Evolution is a tree, not a ladder. No problem with that.
He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 420 by Taq, posted 09-09-2022 2:45 PM | | Taq has not replied |
|
PaulK
Member Posts: 17825 Joined: 01-10-2003 Member Rating: 2.2
|
|
|
Message 434 of 3694 (897698)
09-10-2022 2:56 AM
|
Reply to: Message 432 by GDR
09-09-2022 8:10 PM
|
|
Re: What does God want of Us
quote:
OK, I'll try again but I will only be told that it doesn't count as evidence
Well, you don’t seem to understand the concept of evidence at all, as we have seen in last discussion.
quote:
1/Conscious life exists in a body that is made up of mindless particles.
Why is this evidence? After all that is the only way consciousness is known to exist. Isn’t that evidence against any disembodied intelligence?
quote:
2/Sentient intelligent life exists.
And how is that evidence?
quote:
3/We sense right and wrong and have a sense of morality capable of altruism.
Which is adequately explained without any need to invoke your “cosmic intelligence”. Which only complicates the issue and doesn’t really explain it at all. So that really isn’t evidence in your favour.
quote:
4/We can find beauty in nature and we are able to create beauty in picture and song.
I have to say that isn’t evidence either. Why would it be? Isn’t this the worst sort of “God of the Gaps” argument?
quote:
5/We are able to find coherence in our universe through science.
I don’t think that counts either. Why would we expect a God to produce such a universe rather than a miraculous and incomprehensible universe?
quote:
6/We exist as individuals and can never experience someone else's experience.
I think this is another case of you picking up an apologetic argument and completely failing to understand it. The idea that it is somehow evidence of God seems to be complete and utter nonsense. If you want it to be taken as evidence you need to explain it, because it just looks like a bizarre non-sequitur.
quote:
7/The whole process of the creation of new life is so remarkable
That looks like a highly selective view.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 432 by GDR, posted 09-09-2022 8:10 PM | | GDR has not replied |
|
Percy
Member Posts: 22480 From: New Hampshire Joined: 12-23-2000 Member Rating: 4.8
|
(1)
| |
| |
| |
|
|
Message 435 of 3694 (897700)
09-10-2022 8:29 AM
|
Reply to: Message 422 by GDR
09-09-2022 4:17 PM
|
|
dRe: What does God want of Us
This began with your claim of other types of evidence, like philosophical evidence. I still don't know what that is and have concluded it's just normal evidence. I asked for an example of accumulating philosophical evidence driving a consensus among the world's religions, and you didn't seem to have one. You admit you have no evidence but that you have "information from the world," which is just evidence, which you don't have, and so you have no "information from the world." What is it that you do have? In the space where I hoped you would address that question you instead preached about Jesus and Christianity's commonality with other religions. But evidence? Nope. And I don't see why you need an institution to spread His love. You have love inside you, spread that, and not just through the church but everywhere. --Percy Edited by Percy, : Grammar.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 422 by GDR, posted 09-09-2022 4:17 PM | | GDR has not replied |
|
™ Version 4.2