Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 59 (9126 total)
4 online now:
Newest Member: GenomeOfEden
Post Volume: Total: 909,656 Year: 6,537/14,231 Month: 84/368 Week: 45/93 Day: 8/20 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Choosing a faith
GDR
Member
Posts: 6042
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 2386 of 2436 (910717)
05-08-2023 5:26 PM
Reply to: Message 2369 by AZPaul3
05-01-2023 5:28 PM


Re: What's Important enough?
AZPaul3 writes:
Maybe so, but Tangles message you were responding to in your Message 2357 was about mutations. You seem to think such mutations need some reason to occur. The mutation itself is quite random and doesn't need any reason for its possibilities.
I agree that randomness is built into the system but out of that there are probabilities of outcome.
However randomness is certainly a feature of our existence and that the future is open.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2369 by AZPaul3, posted 05-01-2023 5:28 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2391 by AZPaul3, posted 05-08-2023 6:56 PM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6042
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 2387 of 2436 (910718)
05-08-2023 5:39 PM
Reply to: Message 2375 by PaulK
05-05-2023 12:46 AM


Re: What's Important enough?
PaulK writes:
Of course it is rational to reject unevidenced unfalsifiable beliefs. And all you need to do is to produce evidence of guidance to falsify it.
Just as it is to reject the unevidenced unfalsifiable belief that natural processes were initiated by mindlessly and without intelligent thought.
PaulK writes:
Finally, after all these years you admit that you were wrong? That “selfish genes” can - in some cases promote behaviour that is “ to the severe detriment or death of the self” ?
Of course. Just look at spawning salmon. However, as you said it is about our own gene pool and does nothing to explain altruism outside of our gene pool, or for our concern for animals.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2375 by PaulK, posted 05-05-2023 12:46 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2393 by PaulK, posted 05-09-2023 12:16 AM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6042
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 2388 of 2436 (910719)
05-08-2023 5:55 PM
Reply to: Message 2376 by Tangle
05-05-2023 2:38 AM


Re: What's Important enough?
Tangle writes:
You don't know you're doing it and you couldn't stop yourself if you did.

You need to stop arguing about evolution because you know practically nothing about it and what you think you know is almost always wrong. Why can't you just believe the stuff you believe without trying to make it fit science's understanding? It can't work, the lesson of history is that Christian beliefs have had to change because of science's discoveries.
I don't pretend to know anything in particular about evolutionary processes. I only know what those evolutionary processes have resulted in. I simply see science being about how the universe and the life in it came to exist, and we keep learning more and more.
Yes, there have been those in the past that have used holy books to argue against scientific findings. Sure there have been those who have treated the Bible as a constitution essentially dictated by God. I suggest that is an abuse of the what is in the Bible. The Bible should not be understood that way.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2376 by Tangle, posted 05-05-2023 2:38 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2389 by Tangle, posted 05-08-2023 6:14 PM GDR has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9109
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 2389 of 2436 (910721)
05-08-2023 6:14 PM
Reply to: Message 2388 by GDR
05-08-2023 5:55 PM


Re: What's Important enough?
I don't pretend to know anything in particular about evolutionary processes.
You tell us about it all the time!
Yes, there have been those in the past that have used holy books to argue against scientific findings. Sure there have been those who have treated the Bible as a constitution essentially dictated by God. I suggest that is an abuse of the what is in the Bible. The Bible should not be understood that way.
But here you are still doing it in you're own way.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2388 by GDR, posted 05-08-2023 5:55 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2398 by GDR, posted 05-12-2023 7:52 PM Tangle has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8055
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 2390 of 2436 (910722)
05-08-2023 6:43 PM
Reply to: Message 2385 by GDR
05-08-2023 5:23 PM


Re: What's Important enough?
What was there prior to the processes existing?
Nothing.
Nothing happens without processes. There had to be something going on prior to T=0. We certainly don't know what processes existed but whatever they were they created what we see as our universe today.
As for finding out? Quantum gravity, whatever that turns out to be, may be able to pierce that veil. I wouldn't hold my breath, though. Personally, I don't think we will find out. Not before the hammer drops on our species.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2385 by GDR, posted 05-08-2023 5:23 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2395 by GDR, posted 05-12-2023 7:31 PM AZPaul3 has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8055
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 2391 of 2436 (910723)
05-08-2023 6:56 PM
Reply to: Message 2386 by GDR
05-08-2023 5:26 PM


Re: What's Important enough?
I agree that randomness is built into the system but out of that there are probabilities of outcome.
Exactly. That's what the Schrödinger equation is all about. The wave function of the universe. The probabilities of outcomes.
However randomness is certainly a feature of our existence and that the future is open.
Sounds like a Tibetan monk. I don't speak Tibetan monk. Would you translate, please as in ... say what?

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2386 by GDR, posted 05-08-2023 5:26 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2392 by Theodoric, posted 05-08-2023 7:41 PM AZPaul3 has not replied
 Message 2396 by GDR, posted 05-12-2023 7:40 PM AZPaul3 has replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 8495
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 2392 of 2436 (910724)
05-08-2023 7:41 PM
Reply to: Message 2391 by AZPaul3
05-08-2023 6:56 PM


Re: What's Important enough?
Sounds like random words to me.

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2391 by AZPaul3, posted 05-08-2023 6:56 PM AZPaul3 has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17488
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.1


(1)
Message 2393 of 2436 (910725)
05-09-2023 12:16 AM
Reply to: Message 2387 by GDR
05-08-2023 5:39 PM


Re: What's Important enough?
quote:
Just as it is to reject the unevidenced unfalsifiable belief that natural processes were initiated by mindlessly and without intelligent thought.
It really isn’t. You can’t even justify the claim that it is unfalsifiable. And not making things up is always more rational than making things up and believing them.
If you want to make a claim to rationality then being irrational undermines it completely. You need to learn that.
quote:
Of course. Just look at spawning salmon.
Well that is progress of a sort.
quote:
However, as you said it is about our own gene pool and does nothing to explain altruism outside of our gene pool, or for our concern for animals.
And you’re still wrong. Living in a society that offers mutual aid and support will benefit your gene pool - if you do your part. Really, skim reading without understanding, just looking for excuses to prop up your beliefs is not a valid form of study - and shows no concern for the truth.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2387 by GDR, posted 05-08-2023 5:39 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2397 by GDR, posted 05-12-2023 7:43 PM PaulK has replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4294
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 3.7


(2)
Message 2394 of 2436 (910732)
05-10-2023 9:02 AM
Reply to: Message 2383 by GDR
05-08-2023 2:04 PM


Re: Why not how
GDR writes:
As a Theist I believe that there is an intelligent first cause for life. As an atheist I would believe that there is nothing but natural mindless processes resulting in life.
The atheist doesn't have to believe, though.
You don't have any red squares.
The atheist has millions and millions and millions of green circles of evidence showing us that life is a result of natural processes.
GDR writes:
Stile writes:
My point is that the answer to "why did the rock roll down the hill?" can be "a quake, a shifting in the earth, a shove etc and on top of that gravity" - which are all green circles.
Well ya, but so what?
So - it's quite possible to have natural-processes be the answer to "why" questions about the universe we find ourselves in.
Not only that, we have millions and millions and millions of "why" questions answered by natural processes (green circles.)
And not a single answer for anything at all (why or when or where or who or what or how) answered by any religion of any kind (red squares.)
Looking for a red square is based on belief.
Expecting another green circle based on the millions and millions and millions of previous green circles indicating that the next answer will also be another green circle - is based on evidence.
Basing our answer on belief is historically known to be wrong almost every time.
Basing our answer on evidence is historically known to be right almost every time.
GDR writes:
Sure when we examine the material world we will only get material answers.
But, that didn't have to be the case. We don't know what's in the bag. It's quite possible we investigated the sun and found Apollo pulling it across the sky (would have been a red square.) It's quite possible we investigated the global flood and found that it's true and we all share heritage from the new starting point after the flood and this is impossible without divine intervention (would have been a red square.) It's quite possible we investigated the exodus and found that it's true and that manna really did fall from the heavens due to divine intervention (would have been a red square.)
Then, we would have investigated the material world and found non-material answers.
But - this didn't happen.
We went looking for red squares. But found nothing but green circles.
That makes no claim on anything beyond material or scientific evidence.
It's evidence that red square don't exist, and the only think that exists is green circles.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2383 by GDR, posted 05-08-2023 2:04 PM GDR has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6042
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 2395 of 2436 (910771)
05-12-2023 7:31 PM
Reply to: Message 2390 by AZPaul3
05-08-2023 6:43 PM


Re: What's Important enough?
GDR writes:
What was there prior to the processes existing?
AZPaul3 writes:
Nothing.

Nothing happens without processes. There had to be something going on prior to T=0. We certainly don't know what processes existed but whatever they were they created what we see as our universe today.
So the first process came into existence out of nothing.
AZPaul3 writes:
As for finding out? Quantum gravity, whatever that turns out to be, may be able to pierce that veil. I wouldn't hold my breath, though. Personally, I don't think we will find out. Not before the hammer drops on our species.
Just wondering how you think we'll know then.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2390 by AZPaul3, posted 05-08-2023 6:43 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2399 by AZPaul3, posted 05-12-2023 9:34 PM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6042
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 2396 of 2436 (910772)
05-12-2023 7:40 PM
Reply to: Message 2391 by AZPaul3
05-08-2023 6:56 PM


Re: What's Important enough?
AZPaul3 writes:
Exactly. That's what the Schrödinger equation is all about. The wave function of the universe. The probabilities of outcomes.
I have come to believe that God created an exitance with randomness but using high probabilities. That was after reading a book called Freedom All the Way Up by Chris Barrigar.
AZPaul3 writes:
Sounds like a Tibetan monk. I don't speak Tibetan monk. Would you translate, please as in ... say what?
It's not that hard. We know that there is randomness in the world and with that comes free will and an open future.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2391 by AZPaul3, posted 05-08-2023 6:56 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2400 by AZPaul3, posted 05-12-2023 9:52 PM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6042
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 2397 of 2436 (910773)
05-12-2023 7:43 PM
Reply to: Message 2393 by PaulK
05-09-2023 12:16 AM


Re: What's Important enough?
PaulK writes:
And you’re still wrong. Living in a society that offers mutual aid and support will benefit your gene pool - if you do your part. Really, skim reading without understanding, just looking for excuses to prop up your beliefs is not a valid form of study - and shows no concern for the truth.
How does donating to a cause dedicated to the survival of elephants in Africa benefit my gene pool?

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2393 by PaulK, posted 05-09-2023 12:16 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2402 by PaulK, posted 05-13-2023 2:31 AM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6042
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 2398 of 2436 (910774)
05-12-2023 7:52 PM
Reply to: Message 2389 by Tangle
05-08-2023 6:14 PM


Re: What's Important enough?
GDR writes:
I don't pretend to know anything in particular about evolutionary processes.
ou tell us about it all the time!
No I don't. I merely quote basic concepts as written by those who do understand it.
GDR writes:
Yes, there have been those in the past that have used holy books to argue against scientific findings. Sure there have been those who have treated the Bible as a constitution essentially dictated by God. I suggest that is an abuse of the what is in the Bible. The Bible should not be understood that way.
Tangle writes:
But here you are still doing it in you're own way.
I understand the Bible as 66 different books written in context of different times and cultures and by a wide assortment of people.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2389 by Tangle, posted 05-08-2023 6:14 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2403 by Tangle, posted 05-13-2023 3:20 AM GDR has replied
 Message 2404 by PaulK, posted 05-13-2023 4:04 AM GDR has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8055
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 2399 of 2436 (910775)
05-12-2023 9:34 PM
Reply to: Message 2395 by GDR
05-12-2023 7:31 PM


Re: What's Important enough?
So the first process came into existence out of nothing.
Maybe. Maybe not. No one knows.
I'm sure you would like to recommend something. That would be in keeping with your need for heartfelt fantasy to explain deep human ignorance.
Just wondering how you think we'll know then.
Maybe quantum gravity (or something else) will show us what is on the other side of T=0. If so, it may not show "The Beginnings Of Everything," but just another emergent magisterium with its own reality.
If a major consensus of the experts comes out to say "Yes, this is the answer to T=0," then we will know, tentatively (as with all things science). If such strong undeniable evidence is not shown then there will be no consensus. We will not know, yet, and the studies will continue.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2395 by GDR, posted 05-12-2023 7:31 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2405 by GDR, posted 05-15-2023 5:19 PM AZPaul3 has not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8055
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 2400 of 2436 (910776)
05-12-2023 9:52 PM
Reply to: Message 2396 by GDR
05-12-2023 7:40 PM


Re: What's Important enough?
I have come to believe that God created an exitance with randomness but using high probabilities.
What does it mean to "use high probabilities"? Betting up after a run of low cards?
You are semantically reaching again.
We know that there is randomness in the world and with that comes free will and an open future.
How does random create/equate to free will? What do you mean by an 'open' future? What's the alternative?

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2396 by GDR, posted 05-12-2023 7:40 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2401 by Tanypteryx, posted 05-12-2023 11:02 PM AZPaul3 has not replied
 Message 2407 by GDR, posted 05-15-2023 5:40 PM AZPaul3 has replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2022 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2023