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Author Topic:   Choosing a faith
GDR
Member
Posts: 6042
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 2371 of 2436 (910673)
05-04-2023 6:14 PM
Reply to: Message 2369 by AZPaul3
05-01-2023 5:28 PM


Re: What's Important enough?
AZPaul3 writes:
Maybe so, but Tangles message you were responding to in your Message 2357 was about mutations. You seem to think such mutations need some reason to occur. The mutation itself is quite random and doesn't need any reason for its possibilities.
Here was my reply to Tangle:
quote:
Sure, but that doesn't explain why the possibility of those chance occurrences exist at all. Also, I'm not sure that I would even categorize them by chance. Darwin's finches beaks evolved due to differing physical circumstances. As I say, evolution is an incredible process that has the earmarks of design all over it.
I'm not arguing against randomness. The question is why does the randomness of the mutations even exist as a possibility in the first place. You guys consistently argue the point that the processes are the reason the processes exist completely ignoring my point.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2369 by AZPaul3, posted 05-01-2023 5:28 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2378 by AZPaul3, posted 05-05-2023 11:08 AM GDR has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6042
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 2372 of 2436 (910674)
05-04-2023 6:17 PM
Reply to: Message 2370 by AZPaul3
05-01-2023 5:41 PM


Re: What's Important enough?
AZPaul3 writes:
When you insist the evidence isn't there and continue to seek out fanciful reasoning to explain what is already known, that is intransigence. And, yes, science knows intransigence well because religionists, like yourself, exhibit it so frequently.
If that is the case then there is at least as much intransigence on the other side of the table.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2370 by AZPaul3, posted 05-01-2023 5:41 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2377 by AZPaul3, posted 05-05-2023 10:25 AM GDR has not replied
 Message 2379 by PaulK, posted 05-05-2023 12:59 PM GDR has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6042
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 2373 of 2436 (910675)
05-04-2023 6:31 PM
Reply to: Message 2361 by PaulK
04-29-2023 2:15 AM


Re: What's Important enough?
=PaulK writes:
And to you, that means that cellular life was the first life and couldn’t have evolved from something simpler? Does it?
I have no idea if there was another form of life that evolved into cellular life or not. Do you? It isn't the point anyway.
PaulK writes:
And I will point out that that is just an unsupported opinion that you are desperate to believe. Science cannot disprove it - because it is utterly unfalsifiable. You can always assume some undetectable impulse from an undetectable entity was involved in some undetectable way. But that is hardly a rational basis for belief.
..and it is your belief, as I understand it, that we have evolved from all natural processes without any intelligent first cause or input. That is an unknowable unfalsifiable belief. Hardly a rational basis for belief,
It is no use linking to sites or even reading them if you can't be bothered to understand them. And you obviously do not understand the idea at all.
The usual cop out when you don't have an answer.
PaulK writes:

That is exactly contrary to the idea of selfish genes. Benefit to the self is only relevant insofar as it benefits the copies of our genes we carry. And that can be and is overridden by benefits to other copies. Even the earlier idea of kin selection gets past mere benefits to the self.

It might be more accurately phrased is “Darwinism is about successful replicators and looking out for the “us” when it tends to benefit copies of our genes, directly or indirectly - even to the severe detriment or death of the self. Feedback effects have complicated the picture considerably and any valid analysis of a situation must take those complications into account.”
No problem with that.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2361 by PaulK, posted 04-29-2023 2:15 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2375 by PaulK, posted 05-05-2023 12:46 AM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6042
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 2374 of 2436 (910676)
05-04-2023 7:47 PM
Reply to: Message 2362 by Tangle
04-29-2023 3:18 AM


Re: What's Important enough?
Tangle writes:
They happen because life is faulty. Mutations occur when DNA replicates, mistakes are made and not always repaired correctly. DNA is very easily damaged by radiation and chemicals. These mistakes and external damage is totally natural und unpredictable.
I'm fine with that but that wasn't my point. Personally I'm inclined to believe that God initiated processes that brought about life with randomness being part of the processes that resulted in life as we know it. Frankly I'm not concerned with the idea life could have evolved physically differently that it has.
It is my belief that the point of initiating the processes which have brought about conscious life with the freedom to make moral decisions is to create life with creatures that can freely choose self sacrificing or Agape love
Tangle writes:
This is what happens when you combine motivated thinking (“I have a belief so I need to made the facts I observe fit that belief”) with a partial understanding of the subject you're talking about.

It's evolution 101 that it requires two independent events

1. A random mutation in the germ line.
2. The selection of a beneficial mutation.

Darwin's finches grew different sized beaks because random mutations that determined beak size many millions of years ago created an advantage when something changed randomly in the environment - such as a drought. Had the random mutation not occurred at the time of the random climate event the advatage it gave would not have been selected for.

It's very much more complicated than that but that's the core concept.
Actually it isn't motivated thinking. I appreciate your explanation as you clearly have a much greater knowledge on the subject, which isn't difficult to achieve.
However it doesn't impact my theistic beliefs, but furter informs me as as to how life formed.
Tangle writes:
I mean really, get a grip, you're not this stupid. The ToE is an accepted fact by the world's scientists, it is NOT a guided or designed process. There isn't the slightest indication of design. No designer requiring a particular outcome would build in a random process that GUARANTEES that any particular outcomes can't be predicted.
As I said above, I believe that the randomness brought about mammals with 5 fingers including opposable thumbs physically. It could have turned out differently. The point IMHO wasn't about how we evolved physically, but was about the nature of the creatures that would evolve, namely creatures that could freely choose self giving love.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2362 by Tangle, posted 04-29-2023 3:18 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2376 by Tangle, posted 05-05-2023 2:38 AM GDR has replied
 Message 2382 by Tangle, posted 05-06-2023 8:06 AM GDR has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17488
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 2375 of 2436 (910679)
05-05-2023 12:46 AM
Reply to: Message 2373 by GDR
05-04-2023 6:31 PM


Re: What's Important enough?
quote:
I have no idea if there was another form of life that evolved into cellular life or not. Do you? It isn't the point anyway
Actually it was the point. It started when you said:
Are you then saying that the first individual cells were instantly created without any need for an evolutionary process? that the first individual cells were instantly created without any need for an evolutionary process?
. Message 2325
Why shouldn’t I point out that I am not saying any such thing, nor are the scientists who actually work on the origin of life? Really I don’t see any point in such an ignorant strawman.
quote:
..and it is your belief, as I understand it, that we have evolved from all natural processes without any intelligent first cause or input. That is an unknowable unfalsifiable belief. Hardly a rational basis for belief,
Of course it is rational to reject unevidenced unfalsifiable beliefs. And all you need to do is to produce evidence of guidance to falsify it.
quote:
The usual cop out when you don't have an answer.
Ignoring the answers I’ve already given doesn’t prove that they don’t exist (e.g the final part of Message 2333 shows that even the material you quoted from Wikipedia did not agree with you. All you did is point to a website - and one that’s worse than the Wikipedia page you’d already cited and refused to understand (and that was shown more than 10 years ago). I’ve explained that the whole idea that the “selfish gene” is all about benefit to the self is wrong, over and over again. To say that I “have no answer” is just to deny that fact,
quote:
No problem with that.
Finally, after all these years you admit that you were wrong? That “selfish genes” can - in some cases promote behaviour that is “ to the severe detriment or death of the self” ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2373 by GDR, posted 05-04-2023 6:31 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2387 by GDR, posted 05-08-2023 5:39 PM PaulK has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9109
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.0


(2)
Message 2376 of 2436 (910681)
05-05-2023 2:38 AM
Reply to: Message 2374 by GDR
05-04-2023 7:47 PM


Re: What's Important enough?
GDR writes:
Personally I'm inclined to believe that God initiated processes…
It is my belief that the point of initiating the processes…
I believe that the randomness brought about mammals…
And then
quote:
Actually it isn't motivated thinking.
You don't know you're doing it and you couldn't stop yourself if you did.
You need to stop arguing about evolution because you know practically nothing about it and what you think you know is almost always wrong. Why can't you just believe the stuff you believe without trying to make it fit science's understanding? It can't work, the lesson of history is that Christian beliefs have had to change because of science's discoveries.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2374 by GDR, posted 05-04-2023 7:47 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2388 by GDR, posted 05-08-2023 5:55 PM Tangle has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8055
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 2377 of 2436 (910687)
05-05-2023 10:25 AM
Reply to: Message 2372 by GDR
05-04-2023 6:17 PM


Re: What's Important enough?
AZPaul3 writes:
When you insist the evidence isn't there and continue to seek out fanciful reasoning to explain what is already known, that is intransigence. And, yes, science knows intransigence well because religionists, like yourself, exhibit it so frequently.
If that is the case then there is at least as much intransigence on the other side of the table.
What evidence from your side do I ignore? None. You have none. From there all your reasoning is incredulous emotional fantasy.
The question is why does the randomness of the mutations even exist as a possibility in the first place.
You reach for supernatural "what if" explanations for things we already have answers for. Then you insist on an infinite regression of "why is it that way" questions until logic and reason are exhausted. There, then, you claim unevidenced, lies the divine cosmic intelligence you so desperately want there to be.
It still isn't ... not that you or anyone else in all of humanity can show. That is a big hole in your delusion that you cannot fill. You can only insist against all reality.
Intransigence.
And only on the one side, GDR. The other side has actual evidence of the reality. Insisting on reality is not intransigence. It is sanity.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2372 by GDR, posted 05-04-2023 6:17 PM GDR has not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8055
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 2378 of 2436 (910688)
05-05-2023 11:08 AM
Reply to: Message 2371 by GDR
05-04-2023 6:14 PM


Re: What's Important enough?
I'm not arguing against randomness. The question is why does the randomness of the mutations even exist as a possibility in the first place.
QFT.
Why QFT? Schrödinger.
Why Schrödinger. Heisenberg.
Why Heisenberg? Pauli
We can go on and on with this "why" bs but you will not arrive at your god's doorstep.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2371 by GDR, posted 05-04-2023 6:14 PM GDR has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17488
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 2379 of 2436 (910689)
05-05-2023 12:59 PM
Reply to: Message 2372 by GDR
05-04-2023 6:17 PM


Re: What's Important enough?
quote:
If that is the case then there is at least as much intransigence on the other side of the table
So who on “the other side of the table” has persisted in a misrepresentation for more than ten years after it was pointed out?
(Pointed out here Message 16, for instance)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2372 by GDR, posted 05-04-2023 6:17 PM GDR has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2380 by Theodoric, posted 05-05-2023 1:40 PM PaulK has replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 8495
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 2380 of 2436 (910690)
05-05-2023 1:40 PM
Reply to: Message 2379 by PaulK
05-05-2023 12:59 PM


10 years from now same thing
For ten years GDR has been rinse, wash, repeat. He is using the same non-arguments he did on day one. He will disappear for a while then come back and say the same thing with different word order and claim he has new, super-sized argument. Rinse, wash, repeat.
Except next time there will be even fewer people he will respond to.

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2379 by PaulK, posted 05-05-2023 12:59 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2381 by PaulK, posted 05-05-2023 2:04 PM Theodoric has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17488
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.1


(2)
Message 2381 of 2436 (910691)
05-05-2023 2:04 PM
Reply to: Message 2380 by Theodoric
05-05-2023 1:40 PM


Re: 10 years from now same thing
Only 10 years? Try 18. The Whys of Evolution (well, a few weeks short, but close enough)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2380 by Theodoric, posted 05-05-2023 1:40 PM Theodoric has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9109
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 2382 of 2436 (910698)
05-06-2023 8:06 AM
Reply to: Message 2374 by GDR
05-04-2023 7:47 PM


Re: What's Important enough?
GDR writes:
I believe that the randomness brought about mammals with 5 fingers including opposable thumbs physically.
As you're interested in why? and it's the day that COVID was declared no longer a global emergency, why did this god of yours create a virus that just killed 20 million of us and harmed many more? Why choose this particular evil mechanism - where everything has to kill everything else just to survive - for his creation?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2374 by GDR, posted 05-04-2023 7:47 PM GDR has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6042
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 2383 of 2436 (910713)
05-08-2023 2:04 PM
Reply to: Message 2363 by Stile
05-01-2023 8:46 AM


Re: Why not how
Stile writes:
It sounds like you don't understand the difference between "all there is" and "all we've been able to identify so far." One is honest - and the other makes claims that we're unable to know.
That misrepresents my point. I agree that I don't and even can't know that my theistic claims are true. I have presented my rationale for what I BELIEVE to be true.
As a Theist I believe that there is an intelligent first cause for life. As an atheist I would believe that there is nothing but natural mindless processes resulting in life.
Stile writes:
My point is that the answer to "why did the rock roll down the hill?" can be "a quake, a shifting in the earth, a shove etc and on top of that gravity" - which are all green circles.
Well ya, but so what?
Stile writes:
After millions and millions and millions of questions being answered with nothing but green circles.
It is most definitely an evidenced reasoning to hypothesize that the next question will also be answered with another green circle.
Sure when we examine the material world we will only get material answers. That makes no claim on anything beyond material or scientific evidence.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2363 by Stile, posted 05-01-2023 8:46 AM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2384 by Theodoric, posted 05-08-2023 2:11 PM GDR has not replied
 Message 2394 by Stile, posted 05-10-2023 9:02 AM GDR has not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 8495
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.9


(1)
Message 2384 of 2436 (910714)
05-08-2023 2:11 PM
Reply to: Message 2383 by GDR
05-08-2023 2:04 PM


Re: Why not how
So magic.

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2383 by GDR, posted 05-08-2023 2:04 PM GDR has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6042
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 2385 of 2436 (910716)
05-08-2023 5:23 PM
Reply to: Message 2366 by AZPaul3
05-01-2023 5:01 PM


Re: What's Important enough?
AZPaul3 writes:
The only evidence available is overwhelming. There are only natural process at work in this universe. Any contention to the contrary is without evidence or reason and is emotional fantasy.
What was there prior to the processes existing?

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2366 by AZPaul3, posted 05-01-2023 5:01 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2390 by AZPaul3, posted 05-08-2023 6:43 PM GDR has replied

  
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