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Author Topic:   Choosing a faith
GDR
Member
Posts: 5986
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 2236 of 2275 (908235)
03-09-2023 2:50 PM
Reply to: Message 2229 by Tangle
03-07-2023 2:37 PM


Re: What's Important enough?
Tangle writes:
If empathy is not a biological function how exactly does it work? We know of NO human or animal reaction that is not biology. 10 minutes googling the neuroscience of empathy get's you a lifetimes worth of reading. But you just 'disagree' - no explanation necessary.
Sure, that is all we can physically examine.
Here is the headline for the article you lionked.
"How we empathize with others: A neurobiological perspective."
It starts out with the word "How". My understanding of biology borders on nil, so I'll accept that paper as correct. However, what the paper doesn't and can't answer, is why those processes exist in the first place, nor can it tell whether or not there is an external non-material influence, (amongst many others), on the thoughts that are formed.
Tangle writes:

"Neuroscience has identified brain structures and functions that correlate with psychopathic tendencies."
I don't disagree. Brain damage or abnormalities can cause abnormal behaviour. We're designed with two functioning legs. If we break both of them we can't walk properly.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2229 by Tangle, posted 03-07-2023 2:37 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2238 by Tangle, posted 03-09-2023 3:47 PM GDR has replied
 Message 2239 by AZPaul3, posted 03-09-2023 7:46 PM GDR has replied
 Message 2241 by Taq, posted 03-10-2023 3:39 PM GDR has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17426
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 2237 of 2275 (908238)
03-09-2023 3:17 PM
Reply to: Message 2235 by GDR
03-09-2023 2:28 PM


Re: What's Important enough?
quote:
You just keep repeating the same old argument by showing how they exist without explaining why the exist in the first place. It's, once again, like saying that there is no intelligent origin to a robotic assembly line
You assume that, but it isn’t true. The “how” can be the only “why”. In the case of morality, for instance, that appears to be the case - there’s nothing more needed.
quote:
And again, that is confusing the benefits of co-operation with empathy and altruism.
But they are closely connected. Altruism is a part of cooperation, and empathy is incredibly helpful to a social species. Including gaining the benefits of cooperation.
quote:
Evolution on it's own leads to wolves enjoying the benefits of hunting in a pack to take down a prey, and then fighting over the spoils
I realise that in your lofty position is the sole arbiter of truth you don’t have to do anything as mundane as actually search for the truth. However, in this case you are ignorant and wrong. Wolves do not simply “fight over the spoils” - and no informed person would expect them to. Evolution conforms to what works, not your personal opinions. Game theory, for instance has made significant contributions to understanding.
quote:
What paper. You can show me a paper like tangle does that shows how empathy and altruism evolved in humans, (and other animals too), but that does not answer the question of whether or not those characteristics were externally influenced or not.
Making your ideas unfalsifiable is simply a way of avoiding the truth. If there is no evidence of external influence - and no need for it - why should we assume it is there?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2235 by GDR, posted 03-09-2023 2:28 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2243 by GDR, posted 03-13-2023 3:12 PM PaulK has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8946
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.9


(2)
Message 2238 of 2275 (908252)
03-09-2023 3:47 PM
Reply to: Message 2236 by GDR
03-09-2023 2:50 PM


Re: What's Important enough?
GDR writes:
My understanding of biology borders on nil
So please, please don't deny what is accepted science before you check whether it is.
GDR writes:
However, what the paper doesn't and can't answer, is why those processes exist in the first place, nor can it tell whether or not there is an external non-material influence, (amongst many others), on the thoughts that are formed.
The why? is chemistry. Hydrogen bonds with oxygen to form water because it has to. We are chemistry. Two cells from different people fuse and develop into an adult human because of chemistry - which is actually physics. If you want to discuss how the laws of physics came into being, I wish you luck.
You can if you like say at this point that some unspecified something that doesn't itself need a why (because you don't like to think of that question from your side of the discussion) did it. But that would be disingenuous and a logical fallacy. But hey ho, you will.
I don't disagree. Brain damage or abnormalities can cause abnormal behaviour. We're designed with two functioning legs. If we break both of them we can't walk properly.
But we're not talking of the purely mechanical are we? We're talking about being able to hear the small voice of god. (You're really resisting this aren't you?)
I think you have a problem. If you accept that some people can't hear this still, small voice because of an abnormality, injury (or drug) you are accepting that it is actually a physical thing, not a supernatural thing.
You also accept that some people can't hear it for no fault of their own - which to my mind doesn't seem terribly god-like or fair.
Isn't it more likely to be what we say it is and have stacks of evidence for - another evolved trait rather than something that, to be frank is just bonkers, unevidenced and unprovable?
Why do you have to resist actual knowledge? You can still believe in your god, why do this, you can only lose as we get more and more facts?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2236 by GDR, posted 03-09-2023 2:50 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2245 by GDR, posted 03-13-2023 8:00 PM Tangle has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 7857
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 2.9


(1)
Message 2239 of 2275 (908298)
03-09-2023 7:46 PM
Reply to: Message 2236 by GDR
03-09-2023 2:50 PM


Re: What's Important enough?
However, what the paper doesn't and can't answer, is why those processes exist in the first place, nor can it tell whether or not there is an external non-material influence, (amongst many others), on the thoughts that are formed.
The paper provides an answer to evolution of emotions. You really expect a paper about the reality of the universe to answer questions about your unevidenced majik? Why should anyone have to explain your fantasies?
That we cannot prove/disprove your dreams does not lend them any credence at all. There is still nothing there, GDR. That you think there is, that's the fantasy, your mental disconnect from reality. That is the poison of religious thought.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2236 by GDR, posted 03-09-2023 2:50 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2246 by GDR, posted 03-13-2023 8:17 PM AZPaul3 has replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4262
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 4.0


(3)
Message 2240 of 2275 (908318)
03-10-2023 2:29 PM
Reply to: Message 2235 by GDR
03-09-2023 2:28 PM


Re: What's Important enough?
GDR writes:
ou just keep repeating the same old argument by showing how they exist without explaining why the exist in the first place.
It is getting old. But I keep saying it because I haven't yet understood a response that makes it invalid. You keep making attempts like this:
It's, once again, like saying that there is no intelligent origin to a robotic assembly line.
...but that's not applicable.
We don't have the situation where we have a robotic assembly line and we can see programmers working on it, developing it and creating it.
With a robotic assembly line - if we study it after creation, we can see minimal complexity - that is, things are only as complex as they need to be. And novel solutions are "copied" over to other areas where they're useful... robotic assembly lines do not fall into an inefficient nested hierarchy - they fall into a very efficient intelligently designed process.
But if we look at life... we see no hint of any intelligence working on it, developing it or creating it.
In fact... if there was anyone developing it, we can see many, many places where they did things horribly, terribly stupid and wrong.
Life is not minimally complex but maximally complex - that is, it's complex to the point of not even being able to use some of it's own functionality because it gets too complex. And it does fall into a nested hierarchy - which screams "no intelligence here!" when identifying if an intelligent design process was used.
We specifically look for a designer - and not only do we not find one, but we find overwhelming indications that no designer was within light years of these processes.
I keep using the same old response.. because you as-of-yet are unable to answer it.
...but that does not answer the question of whether or not those characteristics were externally influenced or not.
It absolutely does.
It just provides an answer that you don't want to accept and refuse to acknowledge. But that doesn't make the answer go away.
Just like no one ever have this sort of debate over whether or not God is "behind water coming out the faucet when we turn on the tap" or the external influence of "turning the key and the car's engine starts up." We all understand how and why these things work - and the answer is "because of the process that exist in this universe."
That's the same answer here. It's just that the understanding of evolution/morality/social-species isn't as popular yet. And so you cling to the popular ignorance and think it's adding weight to your justification. But - it doesn't.
We accept that knowledge is tentative for running water and cars starting. You just don't seem to want to accept that knowledge is tentative for the evolution of humanity.
It's the same concept.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2235 by GDR, posted 03-09-2023 2:28 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2247 by GDR, posted 03-13-2023 8:30 PM Stile has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9664
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.2


(3)
Message 2241 of 2275 (908319)
03-10-2023 3:39 PM
Reply to: Message 2236 by GDR
03-09-2023 2:50 PM


Re: What's Important enough?
GDR writes:
"How we empathize with others: A neurobiological perspective."
It starts out with the word "How". My understanding of biology borders on nil, so I'll accept that paper as correct. However, what the paper doesn't and can't answer, is why those processes exist in the first place, nor can it tell whether or not there is an external non-material influence, (amongst many others), on the thoughts that are formed.
Empathy is a product of our brains. Brains are a product of embryonic and postnatal development. Embryonic and postnatal development are a product of DNA. DNA is a product of common ancestry and evolution. The fingerprints of these mechanisms are all over our genome.
I have no beef with people who believe through faith that God has some imperceptible or ephemeral influence on nature. Religious belief is part of the human condition, and far be it from me to tell others what religious beliefs they should hold. Where I draw the line is when religious beliefs try to masquerade as reason and logic. This is what appears to be happening here. Is there any situation where we can rule out supernatural influence? Isn't the supernatural unfalsifiable, by its very nature? Shifting the burden of proof is not a valid way of approaching this problem, IMHO.
If you want to push Dualism into the realm of reason then you need to supply some positive evidence for the supernatural. It isn't enough to claim that there isn't any evidence against the unfalsifiable.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2236 by GDR, posted 03-09-2023 2:50 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2242 by Phat, posted 03-13-2023 2:30 AM Taq has not replied
 Message 2248 by GDR, posted 03-13-2023 8:34 PM Taq has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 17481
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 2242 of 2275 (908361)
03-13-2023 2:30 AM
Reply to: Message 2241 by Taq
03-10-2023 3:39 PM


Re: What's Important enough?
Taq writes:
Religious belief is part of the human condition, and far be it from me to tell others what religious beliefs they should hold. Where I draw the line is when religious beliefs try to masquerade as reason and logic. This is what appears to be happening here. Is there any situation where we can rule out supernatural influence? Isn't the supernatural unfalsifiable, by its very nature?
Good question. Be back later to finish this topic.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2241 by Taq, posted 03-10-2023 3:39 PM Taq has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 5986
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 2243 of 2275 (908372)
03-13-2023 3:12 PM
Reply to: Message 2237 by PaulK
03-09-2023 3:17 PM


Re: What's Important enough?
GDR writes:
You just keep repeating the same old argument by showing how they exist without explaining why the exist in the first place. It's, once again, like saying that there is no intelligent origin to a robotic assembly line
PaulK writes:
You assume that, but it isn’t true. The “how” can be the only “why”. In the case of morality, for instance, that appears to be the case - there’s nothing more needed.
How do you know that? How do you know what influences an individuals thought, let alone their morality. I don't claim that there is physical evidence for an external influence but I do contend that the evidenced is simply the fact that altruism and empathy exist at all in life that has simply evolved from mindless matter. You contend and believe otherwise and we know that.
GDR writes:
And again, that is confusing the benefits of co-operation with empathy and altruism.
PaulK writes:
But they are closely connected. Altruism is a part of cooperation, and empathy is incredibly helpful to a social species. Including gaining the benefits of cooperation.
Yes, co-operation can be very beneficial which is hardly the same thing as altruism. Altruism requires the one who is altruistic to lose personal benefits for the good of others with no expectation of any personal benefit. Why does anyone care about, let alone have empathy for someone, possibly in the third world that we have never met, and can never be of benefit in return. Why should we go so far as to sacrifice our resources for that person or group? In many cases, from a self centred point of view we would be better off if they didn't exist, and their resources would be available to one's own co-operating group.
PaulK writes:
Making your ideas unfalsifiable is simply a way of avoiding the truth. If there is no evidence of external influence - and no need for it - why should we assume it is there?
If there is an external invisible influence that is part of our existence then how would we know that there is no need for it.? Also, if there is an external intelligence that is the first cause for life then there is an obvious need for it.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2237 by PaulK, posted 03-09-2023 3:17 PM PaulK has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2244 by Taq, posted 03-13-2023 3:33 PM GDR has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9664
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 2244 of 2275 (908373)
03-13-2023 3:33 PM
Reply to: Message 2243 by GDR
03-13-2023 3:12 PM


Re: What's Important enough?
GDR writes:
How do you know that? How do you know what influences an individuals thought, let alone their morality.
Do you hold the same or all of nature? How do you know what influences weather, or bacterial infections? How do you know what influences evidence at crime scenes? Could the Holy Spirit change DNA and fingerprints at crime scenes? If so, can we just believe any person is guilty, or not guilty?
Yes, co-operation can be very beneficial which is hardly the same thing as altruism. Altruism requires the one who is altruistic to lose personal benefits for the good of others with no expectation of any personal benefit.
That type of altruism is seen in many eusocial insects, like bees and ants. In the same way, altruism promotes the continuation of the species, and more immediately of closely related individuals. Given that humans evolved in a more small tribal structure it makes sense that we would feel altruism because that would have had a high chance of pushing our genes forward, even if they are genes found in those related to us. This evolved sense of altruism can then extend to many people.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2243 by GDR, posted 03-13-2023 3:12 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2249 by GDR, posted 03-13-2023 8:45 PM Taq has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 5986
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 2245 of 2275 (908385)
03-13-2023 8:00 PM
Reply to: Message 2238 by Tangle
03-09-2023 3:47 PM


Re: What's Important enough?
Tangle writes:
So please, please don't deny what is accepted science before you check whether it is.
But it isn't about the science. It is about what there is in addition to the science. The science is about brain scans and what can be observed. They show thoughts forming and where brain damage can alter behaviour. (I'm assuming that to be correct.) However it doesn't show what life experience, or other inputs there were that caused the thoughts in the first place.
Tangle writes:
But we're not talking of the purely mechanical are we? We're talking about being able to hear the small voice of god. (You're really resisting this aren't you?)

I think you have a problem. If you accept that some people can't hear this still, small voice because of an abnormality, injury (or drug) you are accepting that it is actually a physical thing, not a supernatural thing.

You also accept that some people can't hear it for no fault of their own - which to my mind doesn't seem terribly god-like or fair.

Isn't it more likely to be what we say it is and have stacks of evidence for - another evolved trait rather than something that, to be frank is just bonkers, unevidenced and unprovable?

Why do you have to resist actual knowledge? You can still believe in your god, why do this, you can only lose as we get more and more facts?
You are twisting what I say into something I'm not saying to suit your polemic.
I'll try another way. Your mother tells you not to do drugs. You have the choice to heed the advice or ignore it. Will a brain scan pick up the fact that your mom gave you that advice? In the same way that you can ignore your Mom's influence you can choose to ignore God's influence, neither voice can be identified as such on a brain scan. Also of course, brain damage can impact your ability to be positively affected by the advice of God or Mother.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2238 by Tangle, posted 03-09-2023 3:47 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2253 by Tangle, posted 03-14-2023 4:51 AM GDR has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 5986
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 2246 of 2275 (908386)
03-13-2023 8:17 PM
Reply to: Message 2239 by AZPaul3
03-09-2023 7:46 PM


Re: What's Important enough?
AZPaul3 writes:
The paper provides an answer to evolution of emotions. You really expect a paper about the reality of the universe to answer questions about your unevidenced majik? Why should anyone have to explain your fantasies?

That we cannot prove/disprove your dreams does not lend them any credence at all. There is still nothing there, GDR. That you think there is, that's the fantasy, your mental disconnect from reality. That is the poison of religious thought.
I have largely answered this in my post to Tangle above. However, I did read that paper and boiled down it describes how we are affected by the empathic behaviour of others. I absolutely agree with that. However I would also point out that our thinking is affected by the selfish behaviour of others. There are numerous non-detectable influences that go into forming our thoughts and actions.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2239 by AZPaul3, posted 03-09-2023 7:46 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2250 by AZPaul3, posted 03-13-2023 9:19 PM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 5986
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 2247 of 2275 (908388)
03-13-2023 8:30 PM
Reply to: Message 2240 by Stile
03-10-2023 2:29 PM


Re: What's Important enough?
[qs=Stile]It is getting old. But I keep saying it because I haven't yet understood a response that makes it invalid. You keep making attempts like this:[/qs[
Yes, because you want me to show physical evidence when I agree that physical doesn't exist. It is primarily a simple matter of pondering on our life and the world we live in. I contend that it strongly appears to be the result of an external intelligence. You don't think it does, and reject my conclusions.
Stile writes:
But if we look at life... we see no hint of any intelligence working on it, developing it or creating it.
In fact... if there was anyone developing it, we can see many, many places where they did things horribly, terribly stupid and wrong.
Life is not minimally complex but maximally complex - that is, it's complex to the point of not even being able to use some of it's own functionality because it gets too complex. And it does fall into a nested hierarchy - which screams "no intelligence here!" when identifying if an intelligent design process was used.

We specifically look for a designer - and not only do we not find one, but we find overwhelming indications that no designer was within light years of these processes.

I keep using the same old response.. because you as-of-yet are unable to answer it.
Because, there is no answer. You assume that conscious life emerged from mindless base elements. Personally I can't muster up the faith to see that as being in any way plausible.
Stile writes:

We accept that knowledge is tentative for running water and cars starting. You just don't seem to want to accept that knowledge is tentative for the evolution of humanity.
But I do accept the evolution of humanity. I simply see that it is the result of an external intelligence as a first cause.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2240 by Stile, posted 03-10-2023 2:29 PM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2251 by Omnivorous, posted 03-13-2023 10:05 PM GDR has not replied
 Message 2256 by Stile, posted 03-14-2023 9:04 AM GDR has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 5986
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 2248 of 2275 (908389)
03-13-2023 8:34 PM
Reply to: Message 2241 by Taq
03-10-2023 3:39 PM


Re: What's Important enough?
Taq writes:
If you want to push Dualism into the realm of reason then you need to supply some positive evidence for the supernatural. It isn't enough to claim that there isn't any evidence against the unfalsifiable.
My evidence is that conscious life as we know it exists. I guess we can all make of that what we want.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2241 by Taq, posted 03-10-2023 3:39 PM Taq has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 5986
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 2249 of 2275 (908390)
03-13-2023 8:45 PM
Reply to: Message 2244 by Taq
03-13-2023 3:33 PM


Re: What's Important enough?
Taq writes:
Do you hold the same or all of nature? How do you know what influences weather, or bacterial infections? How do you know what influences evidence at crime scenes? Could the Holy Spirit change DNA and fingerprints at crime scenes? If so, can we just believe any person is guilty, or not guilty?
I'm guessing that science can do all of the above. Should we reject that the evidence can ever positively conclude a guilty or not guilty.
Personally I don't see the Holy Spirit having an impact on any of that. Sure, I believe that weather and bacterial infections happen naturally.
Taq writes:
That type of altruism is seen in many eusocial insects, like bees and ants. In the same way, altruism promotes the continuation of the species, and more immediately of closely related individuals. Given that humans evolved in a more small tribal structure it makes sense that we would feel altruism because that would have had a high chance of pushing our genes forward, even if they are genes found in those related to us. This evolved sense of altruism can then extend to many people.
Sure, so what. I see God's plan for altruistic behaviour to be spread includes altruistic people having an impact on the thinking of others.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2244 by Taq, posted 03-13-2023 3:33 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2260 by Taq, posted 03-14-2023 6:19 PM GDR has not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 7857
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 2250 of 2275 (908391)
03-13-2023 9:19 PM
Reply to: Message 2246 by GDR
03-13-2023 8:17 PM


Re: What's Important enough?
However I would also point out that our thinking is affected by the selfish behaviour of others. There are numerous non-detectable influences that go into forming our thoughts and actions.
Our thinking is affected by lots of things. We know that. Not just the actions of others but by the Vit. E content of your last meal. These influences are just that because they cause real physical changes in the brain. No, we have not found all such influences but we have done a good job of disproving evil spirits and demonic possession so we got that going for us. And we are on the march toward assessing the real cranial impact of pizza and beer at a strip joint.
BTW. Non-detectable means not detected yet. Will find 'em.
All such influences we can identify are physical. We have no reason to suppose anything other. Religiously motivated what-ifs and maybe’s don’t count … anymore. There are no justifiable reasons to entertain such notions.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2246 by GDR, posted 03-13-2023 8:17 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2252 by GDR, posted 03-14-2023 2:49 AM AZPaul3 has replied
 Message 2254 by Phat, posted 03-14-2023 8:19 AM AZPaul3 has not replied

  
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