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Author Topic:   Choosing a faith
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 1756 of 3694 (905031)
01-14-2023 7:00 PM
Reply to: Message 1754 by GDR
01-14-2023 6:40 PM


Re: What's Important enough?
There you go again using lack of evidence as evidence.
What you call a lack of evidence IS evidence. If some intelligent entity fiddles in this world as you suggest then there would be evidence. We have the physical fact that affecting this universe leaves its mark. We know this. That absence speaks volumes.
What about time prior to 13.7 billion years?
Right. Typical god of the gaps. No one knows what happened prior. That is an area of our ignorance. Perfect place to hide a non-existent god.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1754 by GDR, posted 01-14-2023 6:40 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1759 by GDR, posted 01-14-2023 7:15 PM AZPaul3 has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.8


(1)
Message 1757 of 3694 (905032)
01-14-2023 7:00 PM
Reply to: Message 1752 by GDR
01-14-2023 5:38 PM


Re: I Again Think GDR has Given Up On This Thread
GDR writes:
There are individuals who would look down on the sales clerk as a lessor being and as someone simply waiting on them.
And those people are arseholes.
It is about not being prideful and not treating others as inferior beings.
Which is called being a normal, decent, human being
It is anything but narcissistic.
Treating other people decently is the bloody baseline GDR. There's absolutely nothing remarkable or even vaguely 'sacrificial' about it. You think there's something self-sacrificial about just being nice to people? Something special? We behave decently because that's just the right thing to do and to do otherwise is abnormal.
You're trying to turn something normal and human into something special to you and your faith. It nauseates me because it's so self-engrossed. It's the opposite of humble.
Are you going to answer my question?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1752 by GDR, posted 01-14-2023 5:38 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1761 by GDR, posted 01-14-2023 7:24 PM Tangle has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 1758 of 3694 (905033)
01-14-2023 7:01 PM
Reply to: Message 1753 by AZPaul3
01-14-2023 5:47 PM


Re: I Again Think GDR has Given Up On This Thread
AZPaul3 writes:
But the motivation goes deeper than that. You do so to keep on the right side of your god, to ensure he punches your ticket to paradise. Narcissistic.
If you had read what I've written previously you know that is not the case. I have argued repeatedly against that view, but so often it is those who are anti-Christian who believe that that is the point to the whole thing. (I am not saying that there aren't Christians who do see their faith as about punching their ticket to a better life.) We aren't judged on our good deeds, or our theology but on our hearts and minds, or the motivation for what we do. If one actually believes that it is about bettering our life in the next world, then it becomes selfish as opposed to being unselfish.
Personally I think we have enough to deal with in this world that we don't need to worry about the next.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1753 by AZPaul3, posted 01-14-2023 5:47 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1760 by AZPaul3, posted 01-14-2023 7:20 PM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 1759 of 3694 (905034)
01-14-2023 7:15 PM
Reply to: Message 1756 by AZPaul3
01-14-2023 7:00 PM


Re: What's Important enough?
Percy writes:
I bet everyone here would respond with the exact same words because it's been said so many, many times: Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
AZPaul3 writes:
What you call a lack of evidence IS evidence.
Hmmmm draw your own conclusions.
AZPaul3 writes:
What you call a lack of evidence IS evidence. If some intelligent entity fiddles in this world as you suggest then there would be evidence. We have the physical fact that affecting this universe leaves its mark. We know this. That absence speaks volumes.
If someone is led by God to help someone in need, what scientific evidence would that produce?
AZPaul3 writes:
Right. Typical god of the gaps. No one knows what happened prior. That is an area of our ignorance. Perfect place to hide a non-existent god.
Another area that produces no scientific evidence so you just discount it. It isn't that it is evidence that we are the result of an exterior intelligence but it is an example of another area in which science is unable to research.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1756 by AZPaul3, posted 01-14-2023 7:00 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1762 by AZPaul3, posted 01-14-2023 7:28 PM GDR has replied
 Message 1764 by AZPaul3, posted 01-14-2023 7:43 PM GDR has replied
 Message 1790 by Percy, posted 01-17-2023 9:54 AM GDR has not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


(2)
Message 1760 of 3694 (905035)
01-14-2023 7:20 PM
Reply to: Message 1758 by GDR
01-14-2023 7:01 PM


Re: I Again Think GDR has Given Up On This Thread
Personally I think we have enough to deal with in this world that we don't need to worry about the next.
Then the resurrection means nothing. That's not christian. The entire motivation behind christian is to qualify for god's grace in paradise. Without that facade you might as well ditch the catechism and acknowledge being a humanist without the religious overtones.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1758 by GDR, posted 01-14-2023 7:01 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1779 by GDR, posted 01-16-2023 1:15 PM AZPaul3 has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 1761 of 3694 (905036)
01-14-2023 7:24 PM
Reply to: Message 1757 by Tangle
01-14-2023 7:00 PM


Re: I Again Think GDR has Given Up On This Thread
Tangle writes:
And those people are arseholes.
Agreed
Tangle writes:
Which is called being a normal, decent, human being
And again, agreed
Tangle writes:
Treating other people decently is the bloody baseline GDR. There's absolutely nothing remarkable or even vaguely 'sacrificial' about it. You think there's something self-sacrificial about just being nice to people? Something special? We behave decently because that's just the right thing to do and to do otherwise is abnormal.

You're trying to turn something normal and human into something special to you and your faith. It nauseates me because it's so self-engrossed. It's the opposite of humble.

Are you going to answer my question?
I would agree treating others decently is a base line. Why isn't the base line the evolutionary base line of the survival of the fittest? That idea though has been more often than not ignored. Look at slavery for example, which was considered normal.
Also it is hardly unique to the Christian faith as I have said repeatedly, but you'll still carry on making that accusation.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1757 by Tangle, posted 01-14-2023 7:00 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1763 by Theodoric, posted 01-14-2023 7:31 PM GDR has not replied
 Message 1766 by PaulK, posted 01-15-2023 2:41 AM GDR has replied
 Message 1770 by Tangle, posted 01-15-2023 10:09 AM GDR has not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 1762 of 3694 (905037)
01-14-2023 7:28 PM
Reply to: Message 1759 by GDR
01-14-2023 7:15 PM


Re: What's Important enough?
Hmmmm draw your own conclusions.
Percy and I do not disagree. The circumstances of the comparison being made is key. If we're talking other life on other worlds that is qualitatively different from religious speculations. The needs of evidence depend on the subject.
If someone is led by God to help someone in need, what scientific evidence would that produce?
How did this god help? Specifics. The devil is in the details. Let's get down into the physics of how this help is given.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1759 by GDR, posted 01-14-2023 7:15 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1780 by GDR, posted 01-16-2023 1:38 PM AZPaul3 has replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 1763 of 3694 (905038)
01-14-2023 7:31 PM
Reply to: Message 1761 by GDR
01-14-2023 7:24 PM


This gonna be fun
Popping my popcorn now. I think your last few responses are going to be met quite forcefully. I would but you just ignore me. Let's see how they respond. This is,going to be fun.

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1761 by GDR, posted 01-14-2023 7:24 PM GDR has not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


(1)
Message 1764 of 3694 (905039)
01-14-2023 7:43 PM
Reply to: Message 1759 by GDR
01-14-2023 7:15 PM


Re: What's Important enough?
It isn't that it is evidence that we are the result of an exterior intelligence but it is an example of another area in which science is unable to research.
It is an area where we have no facts, no evidence of anything in any way. That's what ignorance means. It DOES NOT mean we are unable to look and try to find answers. That is what cosmology is all about. Remember, we're still new at this. We got a lot of study yet to do.
Further yet, there is no area of existence in this universe that science cannot look into and analyse. At one time we thought we were unable to know what the sun was or how it worked. We overcame that ignorance. We may yet overcome this one.
And in relation to our deep areas of ignorance we can say nothing. No cosmic branes or energy flows. No gods or external intelligence. We can say nothing. Neither can you.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1759 by GDR, posted 01-14-2023 7:15 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1781 by GDR, posted 01-16-2023 1:50 PM AZPaul3 has replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 1765 of 3694 (905041)
01-14-2023 8:39 PM
Reply to: Message 1747 by GDR
01-14-2023 5:00 PM


Re: I Again Think GDR has Given Up On This Thread
Once again insult and put down masquerading as an argument.
I don't think that's fair. As I see it, Percy has been giving honest responses to the points that you raise. And I had thought that was what you wanted.
Yes, some of the responses have not been to your liking. Welcome to the world of debating. And, by the way, this has given you some good practice at responding to tough debating points.

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1747 by GDR, posted 01-14-2023 5:00 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1782 by GDR, posted 01-16-2023 2:00 PM nwr has seen this message but not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


(2)
Message 1766 of 3694 (905047)
01-15-2023 2:41 AM
Reply to: Message 1761 by GDR
01-14-2023 7:24 PM


Re: I Again Think GDR has Given Up On This Thread
quote:
I would agree treating others decently is a base line. Why isn't the base line the evolutionary base line of the survival of the fittest?
Because of evolution. You have no excuse for ignoring the repeated corrections on this point. If you actually cared about the truth you would have at least done a basic investigation of the idea.
Indeed you would have done so before misrepresenting the selfish gene as a version of “original sin” (and pointlessly so). But then again that’s just another example of your insistence on trampling on the truth to support your beliefs.
So stop lying to yourself. Admit that your extreme bias is a problem that undermines your claims to rationality. Start really caring about the truth.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1761 by GDR, posted 01-14-2023 7:24 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1783 by GDR, posted 01-16-2023 2:07 PM PaulK has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22394
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 1767 of 3694 (905048)
01-15-2023 9:07 AM
Reply to: Message 1747 by GDR
01-14-2023 5:00 PM


Re: I Again Think GDR has Given Up On This Thread
GDR writes:
That sort of response is too often typical of the responses around here. You are the host and moderator of this site. Pretty pathetic.
I think you must be operating under the misimpression that you should be immune from gagging reactions to your saccharine, syrupy and dishonestly whitewashed description of your church. And in this thread I'm just a participant, just like everyone else.
Percy writes:
I understand that you're by yourself in this and it feels like people just don't understand and that that's difficult, but getting up on your pontifical high horse isn't going to help.
Once again insult and put down masquerading as an argument.
This doesn't even make sense. It isn't an argument or an insult but a criticism. You've retreated to the echo chamber inside your church and are uncritically tossing it's impressions of itself out to us.
I was asked a question and answered with what I believe which is pretty consistent with most Christians. Do you want to keep this as a forum for anti-theists only, or do you want it to include the views of those who don't agree with your anti-theist beliefs?
I'm a theist, just not a Christian. Or a Jew or a Hindu or a Muslim or a Buddhist.
Think what you're actually asking here. You're asking that people who disagree with you somehow be constrained in how they express their rejections of your views.
Your whole post is making this mistake. You're not responding to anything anyone said. Your objecting to the way your views were criticized.
Deal with the criticism, not the style. Right now you're just seeking ways to avoid dealing with the criticism.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1747 by GDR, posted 01-14-2023 5:00 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1784 by GDR, posted 01-16-2023 2:42 PM Percy has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22394
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 1768 of 3694 (905050)
01-15-2023 9:59 AM
Reply to: Message 1750 by GDR
01-14-2023 5:28 PM


Re: I Again Think GDR has Given Up On This Thread
GDR writes:
Percy writes:
The residential school system was active for more than a century and was a key part of Canada's efforts to wipe out entire nations. Hitler was only in power for 15 years or so and only attempted to wipe out two nations (Jews and Roma). Canada's goal with legislation such as the Gradual Civilization Act and the Indian Act had the explicitly well-intentioned goal of complete assimilation and elimination of its indigenous peoples by turning them into Canadians.
It was a disgrace. I would question the good intentions though. The objective was to resolve a political problem and assimilation was the easiest way to do it.
Aren't you conveniently forgetting that it was mostly churches that ran the residential schools? And what kind of treatment did the children receive? This is one tiny portion from The Residential School System:
quote:
Survivors recall being beaten and strapped; some students were shackled to their beds; some had needles shoved in their tongues for speaking their native languages. These abuses, along with overcrowding, poor sanitation, and severely inadequate food and health care, resulted in a shockingly high death toll.
You say you question the good intentions. Do you really believe the churches that administered the schools had evil intentions? Or did they believe they were doing what was best for the indigenous children, that their methods were the best way to help the children achieve the obviously desirable goal of assimilation?
Our church borders on First Nations land and has done a lot of work towards reconciliation as very distinct from assimilation. Every service we have starts with the acknowledgement for we are on the ancestral lands of the specific first nations bands.
Maybe your church now has it right, maybe not, there's no way I could know enough detail. But the history of churches carrying out evil in the name of good is long. If you're on a religious island that has avoided this pitfall then good for you, but in large part churches are still perpetrating evil. For example, the Catholic Church in Canada is refusing reparations for committing decades of atrocities against First Nation children. But hey, many churches have issued apologies, so it's all good, right.
If you want to increase the likelihood that you're doing good you must escape church influence because from within you cannot see the biases that tilt you toward evil.
You want to demonstrate your love of your fellow man? How about a mission to a poor Islamic community where there's no hint, not ever, that the help comes from Christian charities. And you work for years and decades to build and strengthen this Islamic community with selfless disregard for how its success compares to Christian communities.
Our church worked to sponsor 2 Islamic families as refugees and supported them with housing and food and helped them find work. They are doing well.
Sounds wonderful, but your history of polyannaish descriptions as well as your continued affiliation with an organization that has perpetrated evil for millennia makes me skeptical.
The church, with exceptions I agree, is about bringing people of all beliefs together around the message of love your neighbour which can be found in at least all the major religions and also the the non-religious communities.
Churches are a force of division. If your extended family is also religious and Christian, just watch what happens within your family if one of your grandchildren marries a Muslim. And don't hand me another of your cherry-picked stories of "My granddaughter married a Muslim and everyone in the family joyfully accepted him." You know very well how common it is for cross-religious romantic connections to cause division and dissension.
If you read my signature you can see that there is no mention of belief in any specific doctrine but is all about humble kindness and mercy.
And also no acknowledgment of all the evils committed in the name of religion. You have your head in the sand. Just because your religion brings you happiness doesn't mean your religion is a force for good. Nazism brought much happiness and good fortune to many, but the public works and rebuilding of the economy were not the whole story. In the same way, the good works you insist on staying focused on are not the whole story.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1750 by GDR, posted 01-14-2023 5:28 PM GDR has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22394
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 1769 of 3694 (905051)
01-15-2023 10:03 AM
Reply to: Message 1752 by GDR
01-14-2023 5:38 PM


Re: I Again Think GDR has Given Up On This Thread
GDR writes:
There are individuals who would look down on the sales clerk as a lessor being and as someone simply waiting on them. It is about not being prideful and not treating others as inferior beings. It is anything but narcissistic.
And there are individuals who look down on those of other religions as lesser beings. Seems a common Christian quality.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1752 by GDR, posted 01-14-2023 5:38 PM GDR has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 1770 of 3694 (905052)
01-15-2023 10:09 AM
Reply to: Message 1761 by GDR
01-14-2023 7:24 PM


Re: I Again Think GDR has Given Up On This Thread
GDR writes:
I would agree treating others decently is a base line. Why isn't the base line the evolutionary base line of the survival of the fittest?
This has been explained to you several times in this thread and in many others, now you're just trying to change the subject. If you really need it answering again, I will, but after you've answered my question.
That idea though has been more often than not ignored. Look at slavery for example, which was considered normal.
Again, you're trying to change the subject and given that slavery is biblical I really wouldn't go there.
Also it is hardly unique to the Christian faith as I have said repeatedly, but you'll still carry on making that accusation.
Nothing is unique to the Christian faith, everything is a rip-off of other belief systems with a changed emphasise.
But you're still not answering my question. Why is it necessary for you to perform all the rituals and rites of a formal Christian belief system when you actually believe that even being a Christian is not required to meet Jesus' criterion.?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1761 by GDR, posted 01-14-2023 7:24 PM GDR has not replied

  
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