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Author Topic:   Choosing a faith
Zucadragon
Member
Posts: 113
From: Netherlands
Joined: 06-28-2006
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 3696 of 3810 (918833)
05-31-2024 3:30 AM
Reply to: Message 3695 by dwise1
05-30-2024 2:17 PM


Re: Fundie cat fight over made-up stuff
I would add to this that theology doesn't lead to actual discovery, yet after discoveries have been made through the scientific method, theology doesn't hesitate to claim their sacred texts described this discovery already, so look, truth in these texts!
I always found that part really strange, especially by creationists claiming something like the bible can be used as a scientific book, because it makes 'predictions' that have come true. Again after the fact.
For example, this one:
“Creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay.”
(Romans 8:21; also Psalm 102:25-26)
where creationist link this to the second law of thermodynamics.
But it's not like the second law of thermodynamics was discovered through reading the bible. Nope. So you know, claiming after the fact that this proves the bible to be scientific is the same as saying Nostradamus's predictions are accurate because in the years after his death, some vague predictions seem to fit events that have happened.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3695 by dwise1, posted 05-30-2024 2:17 PM dwise1 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3698 by candle2, posted 06-06-2024 10:45 AM Zucadragon has replied

  
Zucadragon
Member
Posts: 113
From: Netherlands
Joined: 06-28-2006
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 3701 of 3810 (918883)
06-06-2024 12:24 PM
Reply to: Message 3698 by candle2
06-06-2024 10:45 AM


Re: Fundie cat fight over made-up stuff
We kmow that Germany will once again rise to become
a mighty military and economic power.

We know that Germany will be the dominant power of the
10 headed beast mentioned in Revelation 13 & 17.
When though? When exactly, oh that is unclear, not said. So it's a lousy prediction, I can do the same you know, predict that Africa becomes a world dominating power, or India or Japan. And if it happens now, or 2000 years in the future, it can then be claimed my prediction came true, because hey, there's a good chance at some point various countries will become super powers. It's a useless vague prediction like Nostradamus would provide, no date, no actual predicting power.
At some point, in the future, it will happen.
Here I will limit this to magicians. Magicians make pacts
with demons in order to achieve their goals.

Many of these pacts involve demons serving the magician
while the magician lives, and then the magician will serve
the demon after they die.

What these magicians don't realize is that they will not
receive eternal life in any shape or form.

The demons use them in order to show that Jesus, Himself,
was nothing but a magician.

Type in "Demon Magic" on Youtube, and you will see
that many of these magic acts are impossible without
the assistance of spirit creatures.

For instance, a magician will hold his hand up an card
after card will come from it.
You realize that this is sleight of hand right? Magicians are skilled in taking actions out of sight so it seems like things appear and disappear magically. That is the trick, that's what they learned about. I highly recommend you watch a few seasons of "Penn and Teller" excellent show "Fool us" where various magicians come on to try and challenge Penn and Teller's life long experience with doing magic tricks.
In most cases, even when you yourself or I can't see how the trick is done, they do know how the trick is done, because that's what it is, tricks. Most contestants therefor lose the challenge, because they're using techniques that Penn and Teller are very well versed in.
That you think this is actually magic is very interesting to me. It's pretty wild to me that you never looked into explained magic tricks and how they work and somehow didn't realize that it's all tricks and sleight of hand. and in some cases, blatant video editing.
Here's a good example, if you don't know better, you're thinking, woah, he's pushing a card through solid glass. But this guy shows you how it's done, showing that it's just a trick. Videos online of magic tricks in particular often don't tell you that they're using editing tricks to make it seem more magical.
A great youtube resource that deals with a lot of editing of this sort is called Captain Disillusion, he explains a lot of video editing tricks, how they are done, what their effect is, debunking a lot of videos not only about magic, but about aliens, ghosts, weird stuff happening, I highly recommend you take a look, because next to being informative, he's also pretty hilarious.
(I for some reason can't add a video of him, but look up The Magic of Will Tsai, a dude who was very successful at America's Got Talent, showing off his magic trick, here is the video of that, so you can wonder about how it's done:
Then, afterwards look up Captain Disillusion's video on Will Tsai, and it'll all be explained to you.
The Bible tells what will befall Assyria in the last days.
The question here again is not about 'what' but about when, again, like with many other bible predictions, they're vague and open and can fit a whole slew of situations so at any time when something happens, you can say, see, the bible predicted this.
But that is also a trick, a sleight of the mind really in this case, I can predict right now that cataclysm will befall this planet somewhere in the future, I'm not sure when, but we will deal with floods, extreme weather, whole regions of the world may become unlivable and it's because of our sins that this happens.
Now obviously, sin has nothing to do with it, I'm looking at the science, where our climate change growing disaster is taking us, it may take 100 years, or 200, or perhaps 500 years, but we set in motion events which will end up with us struggling to deal with these problems.
If In 300 years time, say the Netherlands, which is half under sea level, protected by dams, gets a big breach and gets flooded, most of the country will be under water and I would have been right.
But that's what makes it a useless prediction, next to the fact that we know this is coming, I'm not saying WHEN this is going to happen beyond some time in the future. If I say specifically, in 10 years time, and it doesn't happen, I'll just be wrong, but if I say "Sometime in the future" I can be right no matter how long it takes.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3698 by candle2, posted 06-06-2024 10:45 AM candle2 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3702 by dwise1, posted 06-06-2024 1:06 PM Zucadragon has replied
 Message 3708 by candle2, posted 06-07-2024 1:23 PM Zucadragon has not replied
 Message 3709 by candle2, posted 06-07-2024 3:57 PM Zucadragon has not replied
 Message 3710 by candle2, posted 06-07-2024 4:19 PM Zucadragon has replied

  
Zucadragon
Member
Posts: 113
From: Netherlands
Joined: 06-28-2006
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 3703 of 3810 (918885)
06-06-2024 2:31 PM
Reply to: Message 3702 by dwise1
06-06-2024 1:06 PM


Re: Fundie cat fight over made-up stuff
I love the Amazing Randi, he did a whole thing offering up 1 million dollar if anyone could prove they were doing actual magic, something that is explainable through no other means than magic. Many have tried, all have failed.
It was great to see these 'magicians' struggle as Randi would introduce a new item or system and suddenly their powers wouldn't work anymore.
A notable one is ofcourse the humiliation of the spoon bend guy, Uri Geller, but the one that stood out to me the most and I remember most vividly is someone who with the power of their mind, could flip pages of a phone book without touching them.
He showed this trick a few times and it worked flawlessly everytime, and then Randi said he thought the guy was just very carefully blowing air from his nose to make the page flip, so he put packing peanuts around the phone book, which would move about if it was the guy just breathing.
Suddenly, he couldn't do the magic trick no more, talking about negative energy from the packing peanuts and other mumbo jumbo explanations for why it didn't work.
It's great to see charlatans and liars sweaty and nervous.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3702 by dwise1, posted 06-06-2024 1:06 PM dwise1 has not replied

  
Zucadragon
Member
Posts: 113
From: Netherlands
Joined: 06-28-2006
Member Rating: 2.5


(1)
Message 3707 of 3810 (918892)
06-07-2024 6:43 AM
Reply to: Message 3704 by candle2
06-06-2024 5:54 PM


Re: Fundie cat fight over made-up stuff
Are you serious? Like, is this a serious challenge? Next to the thousands of videos on youtube you can find about "Appearing magic card trick", I could explain it here right now.
Sleight of hand, you know, misdirection. Magicians are very skilled in not showing what they're actually doing with their hands and body in order to fool people.
They definitely fool you with it.
Here's a guy that shows his tricks and explains how YOU can do them, careful though, you might find out there's nothing supernatural about it, pulling you into reality a bit further.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3704 by candle2, posted 06-06-2024 5:54 PM candle2 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3732 by candle2, posted 06-17-2024 11:46 AM Zucadragon has replied

  
Zucadragon
Member
Posts: 113
From: Netherlands
Joined: 06-28-2006
Member Rating: 2.5


(2)
Message 3711 of 3810 (918901)
06-07-2024 4:58 PM
Reply to: Message 3710 by candle2
06-07-2024 4:19 PM


Re: Fundie cat fight over made-up stuff
You didn't check any of the videos I showed to you or recommend to you, did you? Because you wouldn't be saying the things, asking the silly questions you just did in your responses if you did.
Show me a video of something you find supernatural, a magicians trick that you find impossible, because you claim that 'most' things are easy to get.. So show me one you do not so we can have a direct confrontation with one of those, instead of this vague stuff that leaves me to believe you don't put your time into trying to understand the things you don't understand right now.
Show me a trick you believe to be supernatural.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3710 by candle2, posted 06-07-2024 4:19 PM candle2 has not replied

  
Zucadragon
Member
Posts: 113
From: Netherlands
Joined: 06-28-2006
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 3714 of 3810 (918913)
06-08-2024 9:07 AM
Reply to: Message 3713 by dwise1
06-08-2024 3:53 AM


Re: Fundie cat fight over made-up stuff
This reminds me of a simple magic trick I bought and learned to do about pfff, 12 years ago or something, I was at the airport, and this guy opened a packet of chips and before my eyes, one chip just started floating up out of the packet and right to his mouth. His hand was holding the packet though and his other hand wasn't anywhere closeby to somehow hold a string or anything like this.
I was mesmerized, I thought "Woah, magic" and this guy was selling a guide on how to do this.
I bought this guide, but the trick was a lot simpler than I could've imagined, because the guide game with a bundle of string that if you pulled one single thread away from it, it was invisible to the eye, that's how thing it was. And instead of just holding that string with your hand, you instead pulled it over your head and you could attack it anywhere with some movements freedom, be it a hand or even your foot.
Sitting there, he was shifting his foot forward, which tugged the string along his back, over his head and tugged that chip up which he had previously with a tiny drop of edible, see through gum.
He would make a show of it too, bringing both hands around the chip, moving it like he was going all the way over and around, but he was carefully avoiding the string, but to any onlooker, it looked like he was showing off that there was no string.
But yeah, it was a simple trick, and with those strings in my possession, I showed it off to a few friends after I had practiced, they were amazed, but I have to admit, it also felt a bit like a let down to me, because it wasn't actually magic. It was just a trick with a string that was invisible to the eye.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3713 by dwise1, posted 06-08-2024 3:53 AM dwise1 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3715 by dwise1, posted 06-08-2024 4:47 PM Zucadragon has replied

  
Zucadragon
Member
Posts: 113
From: Netherlands
Joined: 06-28-2006
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 3716 of 3810 (918917)
06-08-2024 5:57 PM
Reply to: Message 3715 by dwise1
06-08-2024 4:47 PM


Re: Fundie cat fight over made-up stuff
I can only concur, when you started talking about those sort of distraction methods, I immediately thought about the videos where people were asking someone directions and in the middle getting interrupted only for the folk dealing with someone else who continues to explain and help them out with their directions, eventhough clothes, skin color, everything was different. Sometimes they'd be confused, but then most times still, they just accepted it.
And then you point that specific trick out right here, awesome stuff!
I definitely remember the monkey trick as well, and there's other tricks I myself have used as a scout leader to wow the girl scouts I lead at camps and stuff.
Mind tricks mostly, from a simple one where I have the whole group imagine a certain amount of things, like big bags of fruit, baskets with melons in them, etc for a little while, only to ask them to think of a number between 0 - 10. And then I'll guess 3 and a bunch of them will be like okay, that's my number. So I guess 7 as well, and more will have that number. It's a cheap trick, because really, there's various factors that push people to think of 3 and 7 as the most random numbers. Most even numbers are off the table from the start, and 1 is not someone most would pick.
In the end, there's not a lot of numbers left, giving a statistically high chance of people picking 3 or 7 as their number.
This trick obviously only works when they're not aware of this fact, you can do it once, much like the next one.
You tell a person you're going to ask them a series of questions, and they have to answer immediately, not think about it, ruminate or anything, answer immediately.
Okay.
So you ask them, in a meadow there are four white refridgerators in a row.
Which color is the first?
They're answer white, of course.
Which color is the second, third, fourth, going through them all.
Every answer is white.
Okiedoke, so what does a cow drink?
And most of the time, almost always, they'll answer with "Milk" because the connection of white, meadow, cow, it all leads to milk as the answer, to which you can say "No, they drink water, a calf drinks milk"
It's fun stuff, but it really shows that the mind is very open to being manipulated.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3715 by dwise1, posted 06-08-2024 4:47 PM dwise1 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3717 by Percy, posted 06-08-2024 8:39 PM Zucadragon has not replied

  
Zucadragon
Member
Posts: 113
From: Netherlands
Joined: 06-28-2006
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 3728 of 3810 (918989)
06-12-2024 5:30 AM
Reply to: Message 3727 by dwise1
06-11-2024 9:27 PM


Re: Fundie cat fight over made-up stuff
I'd really love for C2 to give one, or even more examples of magicians he deems are using demonic powers, that would make it so much easier to debunk, much more fun too.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3727 by dwise1, posted 06-11-2024 9:27 PM dwise1 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3730 by dwise1, posted 06-12-2024 1:09 PM Zucadragon has not replied

  
Zucadragon
Member
Posts: 113
From: Netherlands
Joined: 06-28-2006
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 3742 of 3810 (919039)
06-18-2024 3:27 AM
Reply to: Message 3732 by candle2
06-17-2024 11:46 AM


Re: Fundie cat fight over made-up stuff
candle2:
Shin Lim admitted to using black arts (demon magic).
Yes, and that's called showmanship, you know that right? He's also admitted that his techniques are sleight of hand and card switching, also this:
Shin Lim:
"I'm trying to change the outlook on card magic—to make it more artistic, more visual."
Interestingly enough, he's won two America's Got Talent shows, where his more artistic, visual style wowed the audience and Jury. But more interesting, he's been on Penn and Teller's "Fool Us" show and has lost twice because Penn and Teller looked through his tricks with ease.
You know, that show I told you about?
The fact that you hear someone talk about dark magic, because it adds an air of mystique. And then think "Oh demons!" is kinda hilarious to me.
So stop joking around, this is just a magician that uses sleight of hand tricks. If some magic requires Demons to work, and thus is undoable using regular magician tricks, show it, show a video, a person a link that isn't just a magician using normal tricks.
Thinking Shin Lim is that, is hilariously out of touch with reality.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3732 by candle2, posted 06-17-2024 11:46 AM candle2 has not replied

  
Zucadragon
Member
Posts: 113
From: Netherlands
Joined: 06-28-2006
Member Rating: 2.5


(4)
Message 3750 of 3810 (919071)
06-21-2024 8:35 AM
Reply to: Message 3749 by Phat
06-21-2024 3:22 AM


Re: Holy Hubris
I think the problem isn't so much insulting someone as it is the total innability to hold a conversation with Candle2.
Candle2 goes on rants that have no connection to the topic at hand, ignores evidence and what people say, instead just going on these weird super religious rants.
If he wants to reach Dwise, I think the only choice is to talk/debate him in an honest fashion, without all the sideways mumbo jumbo.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3749 by Phat, posted 06-21-2024 3:22 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Zucadragon
Member
Posts: 113
From: Netherlands
Joined: 06-28-2006
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 3755 of 3810 (919094)
06-24-2024 6:28 AM
Reply to: Message 3753 by candle2
06-23-2024 2:53 PM


Re: Fundie cat fight over made-up stuff
You can't find a trick that isn't possible to do. But please try, just find one, find a trick that isn't possible without 'demonic aid'
Just one, so far, you pointed out a person whose tricks are all explainable quite easily, and you didn't bother to accept that.
So pick a trick, show me a domonic trick you silly goose.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3753 by candle2, posted 06-23-2024 2:53 PM candle2 has not replied

  
Zucadragon
Member
Posts: 113
From: Netherlands
Joined: 06-28-2006
Member Rating: 2.5


(3)
Message 3760 of 3810 (919106)
06-26-2024 4:18 AM
Reply to: Message 3756 by candle2
06-25-2024 3:29 PM


Re: Fundie cat fight over made-up stuff
If you and Dwise are so easily fooled by this fakery, how
can you be so adamant about your other beliefs?
If you are so easily fooled by fakery, how can you be so adamant about your other beliefs? You aparantly are a virtuous man above all other men, because despite talking of how easy it is for some magical fantasy demon tricking people, you believe everyone else is being tricked, everyone else has 'fallen for it'
Meaning you must be a wholly unique character of wit and intelligence... Or, maybe, just maybe, you don't see your own fallibility and you've deluded yourself.
You'd rather believe in delusions than face reality. If demons and satan exist, you'd be their absolute advocate without even knowing it, because your insane ramblings only make people doubt your view of religion and reality more and more.
So, you're doing Satans job here, his #1 employee really, for free even. That's quite the accomplishment.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3756 by candle2, posted 06-25-2024 3:29 PM candle2 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3762 by candle2, posted 06-27-2024 7:33 PM Zucadragon has replied
 Message 3765 by candle2, posted 06-28-2024 9:35 AM Zucadragon has replied

  
Zucadragon
Member
Posts: 113
From: Netherlands
Joined: 06-28-2006
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 3763 of 3810 (919130)
06-28-2024 5:44 AM
Reply to: Message 3762 by candle2
06-27-2024 7:33 PM


Re: Fundie cat fight over made-up stuff
Zucadrago, why do you concern yourself with something
or Someone that you don't even believe in? It doesn't
make any sense.
You don't see the irony in this statement do you?
You're literally posting crap in a forum that's all about providing evidence for things. You've multiple times shown you don't understand evolution, have made assertions without providing evidence for them.
You literally think Evolution is a scam brough by Satan, so you obviously don't believe evolution is real it seems, and then you're asking me, why do I concern myself with something I don't believe in?
Because I know, that when I assert something or respond to something, I can back it up with actual evidence.
Speaking of which, you have yet to point to a video of a magic trick that is truly magic and done through demons. You asserted this was a thing yet have not given any examples yet, I look forward to getting this discussion back on track and having you show a video which you think is magic through demonic powers.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3762 by candle2, posted 06-27-2024 7:33 PM candle2 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3764 by Percy, posted 06-28-2024 7:47 AM Zucadragon has not replied

  
Zucadragon
Member
Posts: 113
From: Netherlands
Joined: 06-28-2006
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 3770 of 3810 (919144)
06-28-2024 2:28 PM
Reply to: Message 3765 by candle2
06-28-2024 9:35 AM


Re: Fundie cat fight over made-up stuff
You were the one that brought up demons and magicians. So you can bla bla about other topics like it means something, but you have yet to present us a case of demon magic, the thing you claim exists.
Are you going to, or are you just chickening out? Show an example or for once be humble enough to say that you don't know of an example.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3765 by candle2, posted 06-28-2024 9:35 AM candle2 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3771 by AZPaul3, posted 06-28-2024 2:52 PM Zucadragon has not replied
 Message 3772 by candle2, posted 06-28-2024 3:42 PM Zucadragon has replied

  
Zucadragon
Member
Posts: 113
From: Netherlands
Joined: 06-28-2006
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 3775 of 3810 (919152)
06-28-2024 8:09 PM
Reply to: Message 3772 by candle2
06-28-2024 3:42 PM


Re: Fundie cat fight over made-up stuff
Those are not examples though... Anyone can say they are something.
What this tells me, is that you do not have an example, you say demon magic exists, but you cannot point at a SINGLE video that shows this, that shows a magic trick that can't be explained in other ways.
If many acts require supernatural assistance, point at a video, at a magic trick and what is demonic about it, supernatural, what makes it so it CAN'T be done without demon magic, whatever the heck that may be.
"People claim this or that" doesn't mean anything, examples or just drop it if you got nothing, because then it's all just hot air.
Common sense dictates that you are being fooled, because that's the goal of a magic act, to make you think it's magic. Common sense does not dictate that supernatural assistance is required, because again, you have no examples of a supernatural magic trick, if it's this common, it should be easy.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3772 by candle2, posted 06-28-2024 3:42 PM candle2 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3776 by PaulK, posted 06-29-2024 2:00 AM Zucadragon has not replied

  
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