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Author Topic:   Rebuttal To Creationists - "Since We Can't Directly Observe Evolution..."
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 335 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 361 of 2926 (899298)
10-11-2022 5:45 PM
Reply to: Message 360 by Tanypteryx
10-11-2022 4:12 PM


Re: Kleinman does not think mutations can be passed down to descendants
Kleinman:
Sorry, I thought you were aware that complex, multicellular, sexually reproducing species only transmit gametes to their offspring.
Tanypteryx:
Sorry, I thought you were aware that those gametes contain DNA from the parent that combine with the DNA from the gamete from the other parent. The combined DNA from the parents form genes in chromosomes of the offspring and those genes carry many mutations from the ancestors of each parent as well as a set of new mutations.

OK. Now explain to us how that changes the mathematics of DNA evolution. Please be specific because haploid clonal replicators carry many mutations from their ancestors as well. How does a lineage of these replicators accumulate a set of adaptive mutations?
Kleinman:
In the case of meiosis, you have to take into account whether particular alleles will be transferred to the offspring due to the effect of recombination.
Tanypteryx:
Obviously.

That includes the possibility that an adaptive allele might not be transferred to the offspring.
Kleinman:
Yes, I think that the way biologists interpret the fossil record that it violates the laws of physics.
Tanypteryx:
Which specific laws of physics do fossils violate and in what ways? Show us your work. Fossils exist, we can see them and touch them. Are you saying they formed by magic?

You have to understand that DNA evolution is a Markov random walk process. This is the mechanism of genetic divergence in a population and the rate of divergence depends on the mutation rate and the number of replications in that population. I showed how to derive the Markov model for the Kishony experiment a while back at Percy's request. I don't recall the message number but it shouldn't be hard to find. Markov processes are entropy processes. These processes determine the rate at which adaptive mutations can accumulate in a lineage. This model very accurately fits both the Kishony and Lenski experiments. Your misinterpretation of the fossil record imagines that this descent with modification (adaptation) can occur with small, even miniscule populations. That's not how DNA evolution works in reality.
Tanypteryx:
Since you didn't answer these questions I will ask again: What do you think fossils represent? What do you think the whole fossil record that has been discovered so far represents?
Fossil - Wikipedia
quote:
A fossil (from Classical Latin fossilis, lit. 'obtained by digging')[1] is any preserved remains, impression, or trace of any once-living thing from a past geological age. Examples include bones, shells, exoskeletons, stone imprints of animals or microbes, objects preserved in amber, hair, petrified wood, oil, coal, and DNA remnants.
Fossils are snapshots of the dead creature at the moment of death. The "fossil record" is an attempt to categorize an evolutionary relationship between these different snapshots based on a lack of understanding of the physics and mathematics of biological evolution, in particular DNA evolution.
Kleinman:
You have about a billion human replications to account for the accumulation of the adaptive mutations that would give humans the improved reproductive fitness humans have over chimps.
Tanypteryx:
A billion human replications, where does that number come from? I think your interpretation of humans having "improved reproductive fitness" over chimps is flawed. Each species is adapted to different selective pressures. Chimps adapted to a fairly specific habitat and humans became generalists.

It appears you didn't follow my discussion with Taq very closely. That billion replications is based on the following:
How Many People Have Ever Lived on Earth?
There have been about 100 billion people that have ever lived, 99% have lived in the last 10,000 years. That leaves about a billion humans who have lived from our first appearance until the last 10,000 years. Choose a mutation rate and do the math. Today there are over 7 billion people on earth and only 300,000 chimps.
Kleinman:
So Taq grabs on to recombination but then has to claim that multiple adaptive alleles can fix simultaneously in a population. That is flat-out wrong and Taq knows it.
Tanypteryx:
You have not demonstrated that they cannot.

Lenski demonstrated that only a single mutation fixes at a time in his experiment. And Haldane and Kimura don't make such a ridiculous claim for their models of fixation.
Kleinman:
Do you want me to start posting links to papers that show that combination herbicides work to suppress the evolution of herbicide-resistant weeds, papers on combination pesticides work to suppress the evolution of pesticide-resistant insects, or combination rodenticides work to prevent the evolution rodenticide resistant rodents?
Tanypteryx:
Please don't. We already know those things, but those are not normal selective pressures that affected the evolution of those species.

Toxins aren't normal selection pressures? The mathematics works the same way for Kishony's antibiotic selection pressure as Lenski's starvation selection pressure. Selection pressures don't change the mathematics of genetic divergence. They only change the genetic target.
Kleinman:
There is an abundance of data and literature that show how the multiplication rule affects the biological evolution of complex, multicellular, sexually reproducing organisms
Tanypteryx:
I am sure there is. There is also an abundance of data and literature showing how species adapt to non-lethal selection.

Sure, and it takes about 1/(mutation rate) replications for each of the adaptive mutations to any one of these selection pressures. DNA evolution obeys specific accounting rules. You should learn them.
Tanypteryx:
Oh really? Can you remind me where I did that?
Kleinman:
You did this in this post with your claim about Archaeopteryx. You have no idea what the genetic sequence of this replicator was and have no idea what the genome of the parent or offspring was of this replicator. But somehow, you have convinced yourself that this is a fossil of a reptile turning into a bird.
Tanypteryx:
As others have noted your mind reading skills suck. The only claim I made about Archaeopteryx is that I have seen a fossil. I made no claims or implied anything with regards to its genome.


My mistake, I thought you were claiming you had some transitional fossils. It's good to know that you finally have learned that you don't have any.
Kleinman:
It may take a while but paleontology will go the way of astrology and phrenology. It all depends on how long these adherents want to waste their lives on this pseudo-science.
Tanypteryx:
Well, it's clear that you will not be the one to overturn paleontology. You think fossils are magic.

I know, it's hard to teach someone the physics and mathematics of biological evolution when they haven't been trained in either subject. At least you have finally figured out that you don't have any transitional fossils.
Kleinman:
It's not a matter of wanting or not wanting. You can't explain the evolution of drug-resistant microbes or why cancer treatments fail using fossil tea-leaf reading.
Tanypteryx:
You are the only person that I am aware of who suggest that you think that has ever been attempted. That seems like a classic example of a red herring.

Lots of biologists have attempted to explain biological evolution, even Lenski. Lenski and his team couldn't figure out why biological evolutionary competition slows biological evolutionary adaptation. That's why he couldn't get his model of his experiment right. Lenski knows now, a Creationist explained it to him.
Kleinman:
Biologists really suck at explaining the physics and mathematics of biological evolution.
Tanypteryx:
So far, you really suck at it too.

At least my model correctly explains the Kishony and Lenski experiments and why combination therapy works for the treatment of HIV.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 360 by Tanypteryx, posted 10-11-2022 4:12 PM Tanypteryx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 363 by Tanypteryx, posted 10-12-2022 11:18 AM Kleinman has replied
 Message 1000 by Taq, posted 10-28-2022 6:04 PM Kleinman has replied

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 335 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 362 of 2926 (899337)
10-12-2022 10:12 AM
Reply to: Message 355 by Tangle
10-11-2022 1:07 PM


Re: Kleinman does not think mutations can be passed down to descendants
Tangle:
We think you're a nutcase and a crank and we have a lot of experience of those here. Prove us wrong, get published in a real journal, we'd all be delighted for you and listen politely at your knee.
The basic science and mathematics of random mutation and natural selection
The mathematics of random mutation and natural selection for multiple simultaneous selection pressures and the evolution of antimicrobial drug resistance
Random recombination and evolution of drug resistance
Fixation and Adaptation in the Lenski E. coli Long Term Evolution Experiment
Drug Resistance, An Enemy of Targeted Cancer Therapies
Of course, what Tangle means when he says "a real journal" is one that publishes reptiles evolve into birds and fish evolve into mammals journal but can't explain how drug resistance evolves and why cancer treatments fail.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 355 by Tangle, posted 10-11-2022 1:07 PM Tangle has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 375 by ringo, posted 10-12-2022 3:59 PM Kleinman has replied

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4344
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.9


(1)
Message 363 of 2926 (899338)
10-12-2022 11:18 AM
Reply to: Message 361 by Kleinman
10-11-2022 5:45 PM


Re: Kleinman does not think mutations can be passed down to descendants
At least my model correctly explains the Kishony and Lenski experiments and why combination therapy works for the treatment of HIV.
No, that's at most.
OK, I'm finished. You error has been pointed out multiple times now, but you continue to repeat it. In the end though your argument boils down to, "reptiles evolve into birds and fish evolve into mammals."
Biological science will continue to discover how life works but I don't expect that I will read about you revolutionizing our understanding of the process of biological evolution. It's too bad that you will not be able to help solve the crisis of the Sixth Extinction that threatens all life on our planet.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq


This message is a reply to:
 Message 361 by Kleinman, posted 10-11-2022 5:45 PM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 364 by Kleinman, posted 10-12-2022 11:46 AM Tanypteryx has replied

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 335 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 364 of 2926 (899339)
10-12-2022 11:46 AM
Reply to: Message 363 by Tanypteryx
10-12-2022 11:18 AM


Re: Kleinman does not think mutations can be passed down to descendants
Kleinman:
At least my model correctly explains the Kishony and Lenski experiments and why combination therapy works for the treatment of HIV.
Tanypteryx:
No, that's at most.

See nwr, Tanypteryx now agrees with Taq that my model is correct for asexual replicators. Taq knows that the model also works for asexual replicators, Tanypteryx is slow at learning this mathematical fact of life.
Tanypteryx:
OK, I'm finished. You error has been pointed out multiple times now, but you continue to repeat it. In the end though your argument boils down to, "reptiles evolve into birds and fish evolve into mammals."
I missed where you started. And I don't believe that silly notion that "reptiles evolve into birds and fish evolve into mammals." That's a claim made by biologists that don't understand the physics and mathematics of biological evolution.
Tanypteryx:
Biological science will continue to discover how life works but I don't expect that I will read about you revolutionizing our understanding of the process of biological evolution. It's too bad that you will not be able to help solve the crisis of the Sixth Extinction that threatens all life on our planet.
I'll let you worry about the Sixth Extinction, my job is to deal with antimicrobial-resistant infections and failed cancer treatments. Too bad that biologists don't help to solve that problem. And don't blame me for your Sixth Extinction, I live off-grid, do you?
Do any other members of the C- team want to debate the physics and mathematics of biological evolution? Or is this forum going the way of the Sixth Extinction?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 363 by Tanypteryx, posted 10-12-2022 11:18 AM Tanypteryx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 365 by Tanypteryx, posted 10-12-2022 12:09 PM Kleinman has replied
 Message 366 by nwr, posted 10-12-2022 12:17 PM Kleinman has replied

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4344
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.9


(2)
Message 365 of 2926 (899342)
10-12-2022 12:09 PM
Reply to: Message 364 by Kleinman
10-12-2022 11:46 AM


Re: Kleinman does not think mutations can be passed down to descendants
You sure are an expert at twisting other people's words and your desperation for approval from the "C team" says a lot.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq


This message is a reply to:
 Message 364 by Kleinman, posted 10-12-2022 11:46 AM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 367 by Kleinman, posted 10-12-2022 12:24 PM Tanypteryx has replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


(1)
Message 366 of 2926 (899343)
10-12-2022 12:17 PM
Reply to: Message 364 by Kleinman
10-12-2022 11:46 AM


Re: Kleinman does not think mutations can be passed down to descendants
See nwr, Tanypteryx now agrees with Taq that my model is correct for asexual replicators.
Neither Taq nor Tanypteryx agrees with you about that.

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

This message is a reply to:
 Message 364 by Kleinman, posted 10-12-2022 11:46 AM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 368 by Kleinman, posted 10-12-2022 12:37 PM nwr has seen this message but not replied

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 335 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 367 of 2926 (899344)
10-12-2022 12:24 PM
Reply to: Message 365 by Tanypteryx
10-12-2022 12:09 PM


Re: Kleinman does not think mutations can be passed down to descendants
Tanypteryx:
You sure are an expert at twisting other people's words and your desperation for approval from the "C team" says a lot.
Oh boy! Tanypteryx is going to give his physical and mathematical explanation of why it takes a billion replications for each adaptive step in the Kishony and Lenski experiments.
And it's not the "C Team" it is the "C- Team" because that's the grade that biologists get when they barely pass their survey of physics and survey of mathematics courses and give a big sigh of relief and say, "thank god for social promotion and I'm glad I'll never have to see this stuff again!".

This message is a reply to:
 Message 365 by Tanypteryx, posted 10-12-2022 12:09 PM Tanypteryx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 369 by Tanypteryx, posted 10-12-2022 12:40 PM Kleinman has replied

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 335 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 368 of 2926 (899345)
10-12-2022 12:37 PM
Reply to: Message 366 by nwr
10-12-2022 12:17 PM


Re: Kleinman does not think mutations can be passed down to descendants
Kleinman:
See nwr, Tanypteryx now agrees with Taq that my model is correct for asexual replicators.
nwr:
Neither Taq nor Tanypteryx agrees with you about that.

Says the mathematician that doesn't do the mathematics of biological evolution. Are you ready to give the correct physics and mathematics of the Kishony and Lenski experiments? So far, Tanypteryx and Taq have failed. Or is your math degree in "Survey of Mathematics"? Tell us nwr, why do you want to believe that you are related to chimpanzees? It can't be because you understand the physics and mathematics of evolution.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 366 by nwr, posted 10-12-2022 12:17 PM nwr has seen this message but not replied

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4344
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.9


Message 369 of 2926 (899346)
10-12-2022 12:40 PM
Reply to: Message 367 by Kleinman
10-12-2022 12:24 PM


Re: Kleinman does not think mutations can be passed down to descendants
Naw, that's "thank god I'm an atheist!"

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq


This message is a reply to:
 Message 367 by Kleinman, posted 10-12-2022 12:24 PM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 370 by Kleinman, posted 10-12-2022 12:54 PM Tanypteryx has not replied

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 335 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 370 of 2926 (899347)
10-12-2022 12:54 PM
Reply to: Message 369 by Tanypteryx
10-12-2022 12:40 PM


Re: Kleinman does not think mutations can be passed down to descendants
Tanypteryx:
Naw, that's "thank god I'm an atheist!"
So, why are you so worried about some "Sixth Extinction" (sounds like societies' latest anxiety disorder to me, Chicken Little)? Won't random mutation and natural selection work things out?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 369 by Tanypteryx, posted 10-12-2022 12:40 PM Tanypteryx has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 371 by AZPaul3, posted 10-12-2022 1:12 PM Kleinman has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 371 of 2926 (899348)
10-12-2022 1:12 PM
Reply to: Message 370 by Kleinman
10-12-2022 12:54 PM


Re: Kleinman does not think mutations can be passed down to descendants
Won't random mutation and natural selection work things out?
Yes, of course. But not to humanities benefit. Our species cannot adapt faster than we are trashing our crib.
But, you being a religionist with your bag of dysfunctional math books can't comprehend that anymore than you could basic genetics.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 370 by Kleinman, posted 10-12-2022 12:54 PM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 372 by Kleinman, posted 10-12-2022 1:49 PM AZPaul3 has replied

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 335 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 372 of 2926 (899351)
10-12-2022 1:49 PM
Reply to: Message 371 by AZPaul3
10-12-2022 1:12 PM


Re: Kleinman does not think mutations can be passed down to descendants
Kleinman:
Won't random mutation and natural selection work things out?
AZPaul3:
Yes, of course. But not to humanities benefit. Our species cannot adapt faster than we are trashing our crib.

But, you being a religionist with your bag of dysfunctional math books can't comprehend that anymore than you could basic genetics.

AZPaul3, our all-knowing and wise savior. Perhaps you will come down off your throne and explain the physics and mathematics of the Kishony and Lenski experiments?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 371 by AZPaul3, posted 10-12-2022 1:12 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 373 by Tanypteryx, posted 10-12-2022 2:53 PM Kleinman has replied
 Message 379 by AZPaul3, posted 10-12-2022 7:01 PM Kleinman has replied

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4344
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.9


Message 373 of 2926 (899354)
10-12-2022 2:53 PM
Reply to: Message 372 by Kleinman
10-12-2022 1:49 PM


Re: Kleinman does not think mutations can be passed down to descendants
Perhaps you will come down off your throne and explain the physics and mathematics of the Kishony and Lenski experiments?
You seem desperate for the answer. You should be able to figure it out, it's only freshman level math.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq


This message is a reply to:
 Message 372 by Kleinman, posted 10-12-2022 1:49 PM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 374 by Kleinman, posted 10-12-2022 3:17 PM Tanypteryx has not replied

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 335 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 374 of 2926 (899355)
10-12-2022 3:17 PM
Reply to: Message 373 by Tanypteryx
10-12-2022 2:53 PM


Re: Kleinman does not think mutations can be passed down to descendants
Kleinman:
Perhaps you will come down off your throne and explain the physics and mathematics of the Kishony and Lenski experiments?
Tanypteryx:
You seem desperate for the answer. You should be able to figure it out, it's only freshman level math.

It's high school-level math and physics, dear Tany. Well, perhaps not at your high school. I think that the Sixth Extinction is hitting the EvC forum and it is caused by the global fuming of atheists. The combination selection pressures of math and physics, nothing can survive that kind of stringent selection.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 373 by Tanypteryx, posted 10-12-2022 2:53 PM Tanypteryx has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 375 of 2926 (899360)
10-12-2022 3:59 PM
Reply to: Message 362 by Kleinman
10-12-2022 10:12 AM


Re: Kleinman does not think mutations can be passed down to descendants
What does "Department of Medicine, USA" mean?

"Oh no, They've gone and named my home St. Petersburg.
What's going on? Where are all the friends I had?
It's all wrong, I'm feeling lost like I just don't belong.
Give me back, give me back my Leningrad."
-- Leningrad Cowboys

This message is a reply to:
 Message 362 by Kleinman, posted 10-12-2022 10:12 AM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 376 by Kleinman, posted 10-12-2022 4:27 PM ringo has replied

  
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