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Author Topic:   Rebuttal To Creationists - "Since We Can't Directly Observe Evolution..."
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 449 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 331 of 2932 (899228)
10-10-2022 9:25 PM
Reply to: Message 330 by Tanypteryx
10-10-2022 8:17 PM


Re: Tanypteryx explains the physics and mathematics of biological evolution
Kleinman:
Tanypteryx explains the physics and mathematics of biological evolution
Tanypteryx:
Now see, this is why I doubt your credibility. You behave like an obnoxious jerk rather than a scientist with something interesting to say.

So, Tanypteryx doesn't explain the physics and mathematics of biological evolution. It sure looks like you are the one that doesn't understand the basic concepts of biological evolution. That's ok, I can explain those concepts to you, I just hope I don't overwhelm you.
Kleinman:
Did I confuse you with my explanation of the physics (thermodynamics) of Darwinian Evolution?
Tanypteryx:
Nope, because your explanation doesn't describe the evolution of the organisms I study.

How long do we have to wait for you to explain the physics and mathematics of the evolution of the organism that you study?
Kleinman:
Is that a tacit admission that I've done the mathematics of the Kishony and Lenski experiments correctly?
Tanypteryx:
Nope, I'm saying that you alienate many of the only people who could appreciate your work.

Why should you be alienated because I explain the flaws in the concept of universal common descent? Is it really that important to you that you believe that you are related to chimpanzees? Don't you think it is more important to give the correct explanation of the evolution of drug-resistant microbes and why cancer treatments fail? You have some pretty twisted priorities in your belief system.
Tanypteryx:
And that you are mistaken to try and extrapolate what was learned from those narrow experiments to rules for how mutation and selection occur in all complex, sexually reproducing, multicellular organisms. You ignore that every individual organism acquire numerous mutations that can be passed on to their descendants along with thousands of other mutations that they each inherited from their ancestors.
The math I've presented explains why combination herbicides suppress the evolution of herbicide-resistant weeds and combination pesticides suppress the evolution of pesticide-resistant insects. The same principles also apply to combination rodenticides suppressing the evolution of rodenticide-resistant rodents. Aren't these all complex, sexually reproducing, multicellular organisms? It's all about the multiplication rule of probabilities, a basic mathematical principle that applies to adaptive evolution. You are showing that you don't understand the basic concepts of biological evolution.
Tanypteryx:
Taq explained your lower-division, undergraduate-level blunders, but you have far too lofty an intellect to learn anything from him.
Taq is the one claiming that multiple adaptive alleles can fix simultaneously in a population. Taq hasn't found any blunders in my analysis or explanation. And neither have you. But there is a major blunder in the way biologists do their inferential phylogenetics and you can't see it. It is clear that you need a hint.
Statistics for Dummies
quote:
How do you select a statistical sample in a way that avoids bias? The key word is random. A random sample is a sample selected by equal opportunity; that is, every possible sample of the same size as yours had an equal chance to be selected from the population. What random really means is that no subset of the population is favored in or excluded from the selection process.
Non-random (in other words bad) samples are samples that were selected in such a way that some type of favoritism and/or automatic exclusion of a part of the population was involved, whether intentional or not.
Tanypteryx:
I await your Nobel acceptance speech for medicine.
Edward Tatum already pointed out the effect of the multiplication rule on adaptive evolution in his 1958 Nobel Laureate Lecture. Biologists are just really slow at learning this basic concept.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 330 by Tanypteryx, posted 10-10-2022 8:17 PM Tanypteryx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 332 by Tanypteryx, posted 10-10-2022 9:41 PM Kleinman has replied

  
Tanypteryx
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 332 of 2932 (899230)
10-10-2022 9:41 PM
Reply to: Message 331 by Kleinman
10-10-2022 9:25 PM


Re: Tanypteryx explains the physics and mathematics of biological evolution
Taq hasn't found any blunders in my analysis or explanation.
Taq pointed out your ignorance in every post.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq


This message is a reply to:
 Message 331 by Kleinman, posted 10-10-2022 9:25 PM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 333 by Kleinman, posted 10-10-2022 10:19 PM Tanypteryx has replied

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 449 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 333 of 2932 (899236)
10-10-2022 10:19 PM
Reply to: Message 332 by Tanypteryx
10-10-2022 9:41 PM


Re: Tanypteryx explains the physics and mathematics of biological evolution
Kleinman:
Taq hasn't found any blunders in my analysis or explanation.
Tanypteryx:
Taq pointed out your ignorance in every post.

Does that mean you aren't going to explain the physics and mathematics of the biological evolution of the organisms that you study? How sad. Are there any biologists on this forum that understand the physics and mathematics of biological evolution? It really isn't that difficult.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 332 by Tanypteryx, posted 10-10-2022 9:41 PM Tanypteryx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 334 by Tanypteryx, posted 10-10-2022 10:49 PM Kleinman has replied
 Message 335 by nwr, posted 10-10-2022 10:53 PM Kleinman has replied

  
Tanypteryx
Inactive Member


(4)
Message 334 of 2932 (899239)
10-10-2022 10:49 PM
Reply to: Message 333 by Kleinman
10-10-2022 10:19 PM


Re: Kleinman does not think mutations can be passed down to descendants
Are there any biologists on this forum that understand the physics and mathematics of biological evolution?
The biologists on this forum understand that you are incorrect in your insistence that your calculations apply to anything other than bacteria and viruses. In sexually reproducing organisms, offspring inherit mutations from their parents and pass them plus their new mutations on to their offspring. It really isn't that difficult.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq


This message is a reply to:
 Message 333 by Kleinman, posted 10-10-2022 10:19 PM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 338 by Kleinman, posted 10-10-2022 11:30 PM Tanypteryx has not replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6445
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.0


(2)
Message 335 of 2932 (899240)
10-10-2022 10:53 PM
Reply to: Message 333 by Kleinman
10-10-2022 10:19 PM


Re: Tanypteryx explains the physics and mathematics of biological evolution
Does that mean you aren't going to explain the physics and mathematics of the biological evolution of the organisms that you study?
Whenever you say things like this, you display your own ignorance. Evolution doesn't use mathematics.
Yes, it is possible to build a mathematical model. But in that case, you are talking about the mathematics of your model rather than about the mathematics of evolution.
And, by the way, your model is broken.

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

This message is a reply to:
 Message 333 by Kleinman, posted 10-10-2022 10:19 PM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 336 by Kleinman, posted 10-10-2022 11:19 PM nwr has replied
 Message 337 by Tanypteryx, posted 10-10-2022 11:28 PM nwr has replied

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 449 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 336 of 2932 (899241)
10-10-2022 11:19 PM
Reply to: Message 335 by nwr
10-10-2022 10:53 PM


Re: Tanypteryx explains the physics and mathematics of biological evolution
Kleinman:
Does that mean you aren't going to explain the physics and mathematics of the biological evolution of the organisms that you study?
nwr:
Whenever you say things like this, you display your own ignorance. Evolution doesn't use mathematics.

Let's see if we get this right. Your science of evolution doesn't use mathematics, it doesn't use physical laws, and it doesn't use experimentation. No wonder biologists have failed to explain the evolution of antimicrobial drug resistance and why cancer treatments fail.
nwr:
Yes, it is possible to build a mathematical model. But in that case, you are talking about the mathematics of your model rather than about the mathematics of evolution.
The mathematical model I presented predicted the behavior of the Kishony experiment before Kishony ran his experiment. And this model along with Haldane's model of fixation simulates and predicts the behavior of the Lenski experiment, including why biological evolutionary competition slows biological evolutionary adaptation. What have biologists predicted with their claim that reptiles evolve into birds and fish evolve into mammals?
nwr:
And, by the way, you model is broken.
Do you have a better explanation for why it takes a billion replications for each adaptive step in the Kishony and Lenski experiments? Come on, you claim to be a mathematician. Try putting an equation to that data. Or is the best you can do is tell a fish story.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 335 by nwr, posted 10-10-2022 10:53 PM nwr has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 339 by nwr, posted 10-10-2022 11:32 PM Kleinman has not replied

  
Tanypteryx
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 337 of 2932 (899242)
10-10-2022 11:28 PM
Reply to: Message 335 by nwr
10-10-2022 10:53 PM


Re: Kleinman does not think mutations can be passed down to descendants
And, by the way, your model is broken.
Plus, I'm still wondering why he thinks it's important to mention the laws of thermodynamics so often when he talks about his mutations and selection?
And why doesn't he ever analyze all those other types of selection that we see out in the field?
And what's he got against fossil tea leaves?

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq


This message is a reply to:
 Message 335 by nwr, posted 10-10-2022 10:53 PM nwr has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 340 by nwr, posted 10-10-2022 11:35 PM Tanypteryx has replied
 Message 342 by Kleinman, posted 10-10-2022 11:54 PM Tanypteryx has replied

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 449 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 338 of 2932 (899243)
10-10-2022 11:30 PM
Reply to: Message 334 by Tanypteryx
10-10-2022 10:49 PM


Re: Kleinman does not think mutations can be passed down to descendants
Kleinman:
Are there any biologists on this forum that understand the physics and mathematics of biological evolution?
Tanypteryx:
The biologists on this forum understand that you are incorrect in your insistence that your calculations apply to anything other than bacteria and viruses. In sexually reproducing organisms, offspring inherit mutations from their parents and pass them plus their new mutations on to their offspring. It really isn't that difficult.

As long as reproduction includes replication of the genome, there is a possibility of one or more errors in that replication of that genome. It doesn't matter whether replication is by cloning, mitosis, or meiosis. DNA replication is DNA replication. It really isn't that difficult. In fact, the math is so trivial, it can be done by someone with the understanding of a high school-level probability course. It is really not that hard to superimpose recombination on the process as well. You should try it, you might learn something about the physics and mathematics of biological evolution.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 334 by Tanypteryx, posted 10-10-2022 10:49 PM Tanypteryx has not replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6445
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.0


(1)
Message 339 of 2932 (899244)
10-10-2022 11:32 PM
Reply to: Message 336 by Kleinman
10-10-2022 11:19 PM


Re: Tanypteryx explains the physics and mathematics of biological evolution
Let's see if we get this right. Your science of evolution doesn't use mathematics, it doesn't use physical laws, and it doesn't use experimentation.
No, you have not got that right. May I suggest that you stop trying to tell me what I believe. You make terrible guesses.
Do you have a better explanation for why it takes a billion replications for each adaptive step in the Kishony and Lenski experiments?
Those were very limited experiments. You are reading far too much into them.

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

This message is a reply to:
 Message 336 by Kleinman, posted 10-10-2022 11:19 PM Kleinman has not replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6445
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.0


(1)
Message 340 of 2932 (899245)
10-10-2022 11:35 PM
Reply to: Message 337 by Tanypteryx
10-10-2022 11:28 PM


Re: Kleinman does not think mutations can be passed down to descendants
Plus, I'm still wondering why he thinks it's important to mention the laws of thermodynamics so often when he talks about his mutations and selection?
That's probably because he is a creationist, and creationists have weird ideas about thermodynamics.

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

This message is a reply to:
 Message 337 by Tanypteryx, posted 10-10-2022 11:28 PM Tanypteryx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 341 by Tanypteryx, posted 10-10-2022 11:42 PM nwr has seen this message but not replied
 Message 343 by Kleinman, posted 10-11-2022 12:11 AM nwr has seen this message but not replied

  
Tanypteryx
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 341 of 2932 (899246)
10-10-2022 11:42 PM
Reply to: Message 340 by nwr
10-10-2022 11:35 PM


Re: Kleinman does not think mutations can be passed down to descendants
That's probably because he is a creationist, and creationists have weird ideas about thermodynamics.
True, and he's a really weird creationist. He appears to have a top notch education but then he corrupts it to promote this nonsense.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq


This message is a reply to:
 Message 340 by nwr, posted 10-10-2022 11:35 PM nwr has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 344 by Kleinman, posted 10-11-2022 12:16 AM Tanypteryx has not replied

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 449 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 342 of 2932 (899247)
10-10-2022 11:54 PM
Reply to: Message 337 by Tanypteryx
10-10-2022 11:28 PM


Re: Kleinman does not think mutations can be passed down to descendants
nmr:
And, by the way, your model is broken.
Tanypteryx:
Plus, I'm still wondering why he thinks it's important to mention the laws of thermodynamics so often when he talks about his mutations and selection?

Descent with modification (DNA adaptation) is a second law of thermodynamics process where the random trial is a replication. Biological evolutionary competition is a first law of thermodynamics conservation of energy process. Biological evolutionary competition slows the descent with modification process because it limits the number of replications that the most fit variant can do. That's why the Kishony populations evolve more rapidly to their selection condition than the Lenski populations do to their selection condition.
Tanypteryx:
And why doesn't he ever analyze all those other types of selection that we see out in the field?
Different selection conditions target different genetic loci. The Kishony experiment uses a toxin that targets a single genetic locus. The Lenski experiment uses starvation which targets every energy-requiring metabolic pathway, ie multiple genetic loci. Thermal stress will target multiple genetic loci, predation might target one or more genetic loci. What all these selection conditions have in common is that if a single mutation can give improved reproductive fitness to that member, it will take about 1/(mutation rate) replications for that mutation to have a reasonable probability of occurring. If it takes 2 or more mutations to give improved fitness, the number of replications goes up exponentially.
Tanypteryx:
And what's he got against fossil tea leaves?
The problem is that reading fossil tea leaves doesn't correctly explain the physics and mathematics of biological evolution. Each adaptive mutational step in the Kishony and Lenski experiments takes about a billion replications. You should have transitional fossil forms coming out of your ears if universal common descent was true.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 337 by Tanypteryx, posted 10-10-2022 11:28 PM Tanypteryx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 345 by Tanypteryx, posted 10-11-2022 12:48 AM Kleinman has replied

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 449 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 343 of 2932 (899248)
10-11-2022 12:11 AM
Reply to: Message 340 by nwr
10-10-2022 11:35 PM


Re: Kleinman does not think mutations can be passed down to descendants
Tanypteryx:
Plus, I'm still wondering why he thinks it's important to mention the laws of thermodynamics so often when he talks about his mutations and selection?
nwr:
That's probably because he is a creationist, and creationists have weird ideas about thermodynamics.

It may seem weird to you but it didn't seem weird to my employer in the aerospace industry that paid me a lot of money for that skill. I also was paid to teach thermodynamics and heat transfer at the university level, both undergraduate and graduate levels. It was my major field for my PhD and I also hold a state engineering license which requires training, experience, and examination to receive.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 340 by nwr, posted 10-10-2022 11:35 PM nwr has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 350 by ringo, posted 10-11-2022 12:33 PM Kleinman has replied

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 449 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 344 of 2932 (899249)
10-11-2022 12:16 AM
Reply to: Message 341 by Tanypteryx
10-10-2022 11:42 PM


Re: Kleinman does not think mutations can be passed down to descendants
nwr:
That's probably because he is a creationist, and creationists have weird ideas about thermodynamics.
Tanypteryx:
True, and he's a really weird creationist. He appears to have a top notch education but then he corrupts it to promote this nonsense.

It's not so weird if you want to understand how antimicrobial drug resistance evolves and why cancer treatments fail. But I am different than most Creationists in that I think that Darwin is qualitatively correct. What Darwin didn't understand is the limitations of the physical processes that he was observing.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 341 by Tanypteryx, posted 10-10-2022 11:42 PM Tanypteryx has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 346 by nwr, posted 10-11-2022 12:58 AM Kleinman has replied

  
Tanypteryx
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 345 of 2932 (899250)
10-11-2022 12:48 AM
Reply to: Message 342 by Kleinman
10-10-2022 11:54 PM


Re: Kleinman does not think mutations can be passed down to descendants
Descent with modification (DNA adaptation) is a second law of thermodynamics process where the random trial is a replication.
Sorry, what random trial? So, the second law is an important term in your equation?
Biological evolutionary competition is a first law of thermodynamics conservation of energy process
So, the first law is an important term in your equation?
What all these selection conditions have in common is that if a single mutation can give improved reproductive fitness to that member, it will take about 1/(mutation rate) replications for that mutation to have a reasonable probability of occurring. If it takes 2 or more mutations to give improved fitness, the number of replications goes up exponentially.
What you keep ignoring is the fact that many species have millions of mutations happening in every generation that are passed to descendants. These mutations are happening on multiple chromosome and on multiple genes that can all be passed to offspring along with mutations from past ancestors. Most genes are not under selection and are passed on to descendants and neutral mutations keep getting passed on and accumulating in descendants too. You say only one of them can be beneficial in a billion generations and then the next after another billion generations.
The problem is that reading fossil tea leaves doesn't correctly explain the physics and mathematics of biological evolution.
Well, you may be right. I couldn't find a single record of fossil tea leaves, Camellia sinensis
I would also note that evolutionary biology doesn't use mathematics, but evolutionary science does.
You should have transitional fossil forms coming out of your ears if universal common descent was true.
Good prediction, it turns out we do. I guess while you were getting that fancy education you didn't visit and university fossil collections. Probably too busy taking those high school probability courses

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq


This message is a reply to:
 Message 342 by Kleinman, posted 10-10-2022 11:54 PM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 347 by Kleinman, posted 10-11-2022 8:47 AM Tanypteryx has replied

  
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