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Author Topic:   Rebuttal To Creationists - "Since We Can't Directly Observe Evolution..."
Kleinman
Member
Posts: 1708
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 2716 of 2851 (904738)
01-06-2023 11:59 AM
Reply to: Message 2713 by Theodoric
01-06-2023 11:27 AM


Re: Forewarned.
Theodoric:
I am not making any claims on knowledge of that subject. You are making claims about what I asked you.

I have not heard the rubber and glue argument since I was in elementary school. But you seem to have adopted it as your only argument.
Yep, and I support my claims with experimental evidence, a mathematical description, and an explanation using the laws of physics (something that biologists didn't get in their survey of mathematics and survey of physics courses). I learned the mathematics in elementary school. Too bad you only learned about rubber and glue.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2713 by Theodoric, posted 01-06-2023 11:27 AM Theodoric has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2718 by ringo, posted 01-06-2023 12:05 PM Kleinman has not replied

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 20915
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 2717 of 2851 (904739)
01-06-2023 12:02 PM
Reply to: Message 2715 by Kleinman
01-06-2023 11:52 AM


Re: Forewarned.
Kleinman writes:
He is related to fecal bacteria but not descended from fecal bacteria.
If you understand that, why don't you understand that you are related to your cousin but you are not descended from your cousin? Why don't you understand that mammals are related to fish but they are not descended from fish?
Kleinman writes:
So tell us pea shooter, which bacteria are you descended from?
You're misunderstanding AGAIN. I am descended from my ANCESTORS, not my relatives. You need to learn the difference between descent and relationship.
Kleinman writes:
Just because you believe you are related to fecal bacteria ....
Related to, yes. Descended from, no.
Kleinman writes:
... doesn't mean you know how drug resistance evolves....
Since YOU can't understand the difference between related and descended, YOI don't know enough about evolution to say anything on the subject.

Come all of you cowboys all over this land,
I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command:
To hold a six shooter, and never to run
As long as there's bullets in both of your guns.
-- Woody Guthrie

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2715 by Kleinman, posted 01-06-2023 11:52 AM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2719 by Kleinman, posted 01-06-2023 12:30 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 20915
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.7


(1)
Message 2718 of 2851 (904740)
01-06-2023 12:05 PM
Reply to: Message 2716 by Kleinman
01-06-2023 11:59 AM


Re: Forewarned.
Kleinman writes:
... I support my claims with experimental evidence....
You haven't supported your claim about fish evolving into mammals AT ALL. You run away from the issue. You have never been able to show where anybody but YOU has ever made such a claim.

Come all of you cowboys all over this land,
I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command:
To hold a six shooter, and never to run
As long as there's bullets in both of your guns.
-- Woody Guthrie

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2716 by Kleinman, posted 01-06-2023 11:59 AM Kleinman has not replied

  
Kleinman
Member
Posts: 1708
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 2719 of 2851 (904741)
01-06-2023 12:30 PM
Reply to: Message 2717 by ringo
01-06-2023 12:02 PM


Re: Forewarned.
Kleinman:
He is related to fecal bacteria but not descended from fecal bacteria.
ringo:
If you understand that, why don't you understand that you are related to your cousin but you are not descended from your cousin? Why don't you understand that mammals are related to fish but they are not descended from fish?

If you want to believe you are related to fecal bacteria, go for it.
Kleinman:
So tell us pea shooter, which bacteria are you descended from?
ringo:
You're misunderstanding AGAIN. I am descended from my ANCESTORS, not my relatives. You need to learn the difference between descent and relationship.

So you don't know which bacteria you are descended from, you are only related to them. Maybe you descended from a fungus. That would mean there is a fungus among us.
Kleinman:
Just because you believe you are related to fecal bacteria ....
ringo:
Related to, yes. Descended from, no.

Maybe you descended from a retrovirus?
Kleinman:
... doesn't mean you know how drug resistance evolves....
ringo:
Since YOU can't understand the difference between related and descended, YOI don't know enough about evolution to say anything on the subject.

At least I don't flush my relatives down the toilet.
Message 2718
Kleinman:
... I support my claims with experimental evidence....
ringo:
You haven't supported your claim about fish evolving into mammals AT ALL. You run away from the issue. You have never been able to show where anybody but YOU has ever made such a claim.

I wonder what that selection pressure was that evolved a bacteria into a fake cowboy.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2717 by ringo, posted 01-06-2023 12:02 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2720 by ringo, posted 01-06-2023 12:40 PM Kleinman has replied

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 20915
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 2720 of 2851 (904742)
01-06-2023 12:40 PM
Reply to: Message 2719 by Kleinman
01-06-2023 12:30 PM


Re: Forewarned.
Kleinman writes:
If you want to believe you are related to fecal bacteria, go for it.
It isn't a matter of "wanting to believe. It's a matter of accepting reality.
Kleinman writes:
So you don't know which bacteria you are descended from, you are only related to them.
I keep telling you, relatedness and descent are diffrent. You are not descended from ANY of your cousins.
Kleinman writes:
Maybe you descended from a fungus
No. Again, that is a relative, not an ancestor. You really should learn some basic concepts before you try to talk about evolution.
Kleinman writes:
Maybe you descended from a retrovirus?
Relative, not ancestor. You really should learn some basic concepts before you try to talk about evolution.
Kleinman writes:
At least I don't flush my relatives down the toilet.
There's no room in there with you.
Kleinman writes:
I wonder what that selection pressure was that evolved a bacteria into a fake cowboy.
You're in way over your head.

Come all of you cowboys all over this land,
I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command:
To hold a six shooter, and never to run
As long as there's bullets in both of your guns.
-- Woody Guthrie

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2719 by Kleinman, posted 01-06-2023 12:30 PM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2721 by dwise1, posted 01-06-2023 12:55 PM ringo has seen this message but not replied
 Message 2722 by Kleinman, posted 01-06-2023 1:45 PM ringo has replied

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 5563
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 3.2


(1)
Message 2721 of 2851 (904743)
01-06-2023 12:55 PM
Reply to: Message 2720 by ringo
01-06-2023 12:40 PM


Re: Forewarned.
He thinks he's related to dust, being descended from a Golem. And he sees no reason to try to rise above that.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2720 by ringo, posted 01-06-2023 12:40 PM ringo has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2723 by Kleinman, posted 01-06-2023 1:46 PM dwise1 has not replied

  
Kleinman
Member
Posts: 1708
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 2722 of 2851 (904745)
01-06-2023 1:45 PM
Reply to: Message 2720 by ringo
01-06-2023 12:40 PM


Re: Forewarned.
Kleinman:
If you want to believe you are related to fecal bacteria, go for it.
ringo:
It isn't a matter of "wanting to believe. It's a matter of accepting reality.

We now know what you think is your relatives. Why would you want to flush your relatives down the toilet?
Kleinman:
So you don't know which bacteria you are descended from, you are only related to them.
ringo:
I keep telling you, relatedness and descent are diffrent. You are not descended from ANY of your cousins.

So you are not related to your parents?
Kleinman:
Maybe you descended from a fungus
ringo:
No. Again, that is a relative, not an ancestor. You really should learn some basic concepts before you try to talk about evolution.

Now I get it. You are related to everything except your parents and they aren't a fungus.
Kleinman:
Maybe you descended from a retrovirus?
ringo:
Relative, not ancestor. You really should learn some basic concepts before you try to talk about evolution.

Did your parents appear in the primordial soup?
Kleinman:
At least I don't flush my relatives down the toilet.
ringo:
There's no room in there with you.

Now you are just being silly, I don't flush my relatives down the toilet, that's your fantasy.
Kleinman:
I wonder what that selection pressure was that evolved a bacteria into a fake cowboy.
ringo:
You're in way over your head.

That's what your relatives said just before you hit flush.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2720 by ringo, posted 01-06-2023 12:40 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2738 by ringo, posted 01-07-2023 10:52 AM Kleinman has replied

  
Kleinman
Member
Posts: 1708
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 2723 of 2851 (904746)
01-06-2023 1:46 PM
Reply to: Message 2721 by dwise1
01-06-2023 12:55 PM


Re: Forewarned.
dwise1:
He thinks he's related to dust, being descended from a Golem. And he sees no reason to try to rise above that.
I wonder if dwise1 knows that is where he shall return.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2721 by dwise1, posted 01-06-2023 12:55 PM dwise1 has not replied

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 3773
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 2724 of 2851 (904747)
01-06-2023 2:17 PM
Reply to: Message 2709 by Kleinman
01-06-2023 10:00 AM


Re: Forewarned.
Conman the Bullshit Peddler is going to teach us how the gypsies created the fossil record.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2709 by Kleinman, posted 01-06-2023 10:00 AM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2725 by Kleinman, posted 01-06-2023 3:12 PM Tanypteryx has replied

  
Kleinman
Member
Posts: 1708
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 2725 of 2851 (904748)
01-06-2023 3:12 PM
Reply to: Message 2724 by Tanypteryx
01-06-2023 2:17 PM


Re: Forewarned.
Tanypteryx:
Conman the Bullshit Peddler is going to teach us how the gypsies created the fossil record.
Tany will now explain to us the lack of transitional forms found in the fossil record. He will do this with retroviruses since he can't explain how descent with modification works. And that humans got 200,000 retroviral infections which caused no harm to the lineage. He will then show us his collection of dead bugs in life-like poses. After all, Tany got social promotions in his survey of physics and survey of mathematics course which prepared him for a lifetime of bug chasing.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2724 by Tanypteryx, posted 01-06-2023 2:17 PM Tanypteryx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2726 by Tanypteryx, posted 01-06-2023 3:17 PM Kleinman has replied

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 3773
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 2726 of 2851 (904749)
01-06-2023 3:17 PM
Reply to: Message 2725 by Kleinman
01-06-2023 3:12 PM


Re: Forewarned.
Conman the Bullshit Peddler is going to teach us how the gypsies created the fossil record.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2725 by Kleinman, posted 01-06-2023 3:12 PM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2727 by Kleinman, posted 01-06-2023 3:24 PM Tanypteryx has replied

  
Kleinman
Member
Posts: 1708
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 2727 of 2851 (904751)
01-06-2023 3:24 PM
Reply to: Message 2726 by Tanypteryx
01-06-2023 3:17 PM


Re: Forewarned.
Tanypteryx:
Conman the Bullshit Peddler is going to teach us how the gypsies created the fossil record.
Tany is confused, this is from Tany's imagination. Perhaps Tany wants to tell us the selection condition(s) that would evolve a bacteria into a fake cowboy or a poorly trained biologist.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2726 by Tanypteryx, posted 01-06-2023 3:17 PM Tanypteryx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2728 by dwise1, posted 01-06-2023 4:47 PM Kleinman has replied
 Message 2730 by Tanypteryx, posted 01-06-2023 5:23 PM Kleinman has replied

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 5563
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 3.2


(1)
Message 2728 of 2851 (904755)
01-06-2023 4:47 PM
Reply to: Message 2727 by Kleinman
01-06-2023 3:24 PM


Re: Forewarned.
Please, please take a class in biology. Preferably one that teaches evolution. Or maybe physical anthropology would be better (as per Dr Eugenie Scott's story; see below (not for you, but rather for those unafraid to learn something) ). Perhaps then you would finally no longer be so terrified of ringo's question that you've been running away from for ... how many months?:
ringo writes:
Do you understand yet that A → B and A → C are NOT the same as B → C ?
Anybody with even the most minimal understanding of evolution would be able to answer that question with ease. Yet you repeatedly run away from it in terror.
Very similar to every other creationist I have encountered in the past four decades being terrified of that one question that none of them has ever been able to answer: "What the hell are you talking about?"
 
For the edification of those inclined to learn:
About 25 years ago I attended a meeting where Dr. Eugenie Scott, PhD Physical Anthropology and former Executive Director of the National Center for Science Education (NCSE), spoke.
In her presentation, she used her own experience in teaching the introductory physical anthropology class at a university in order to illustrate this famous quote by Theodosius Dobzhansky:
quote:
Seen in the light of evolution, biology is, perhaps, intellectually the most satisfying and inspiring science. Without that light, it becomes a pile of sundry facts -- some of them interesting or curious, but making no meaningful picture as a whole.
(Theodosius Dobzhansky, Nothing in Biology Makes Sense Except in the Light of Evolution, American Biology Teacher 35:125-129 (March 1973), p. 129:)
She told of how she would always get senior undergraduate biology majors in her class who needed one more science course for their general-ed graduation requirements and chose her class for an "easy A" ("Little did those poor fools realize ... "). She also informed us that in many colleges and universities, the biology departments do not teach evolution to its undergraduates (she offered no reason why that was), so those biology majors in their final semester had not been taught evolution.
But in her class, she most definitely did teach evolution. She described watching those students' faces for that "AHA!" moment that eventually hit every single one of them: "So THAT's why ... !" Until they had had a chance to learn about evolution, nothing in all those years of biology classes had made any sense.
 
Now just for fun. I have seen you respond with interest to a fellow creationist's mention of young-earth claims. Here's one from "Dr" Kent Hovind (his "PhD" is from a diploma mill, plus it's in "Religious Education" though he uses it to try to pose as a scientist):
quote:
For instance, the Sun is burning, of course, and it's burning an enormous amount of fuel. It's losing about 5 million tons every second. Well, if the earth is billions of years old that creates a problem, because you couldn't go back 5 billion or 20 billion years like they say with the Sun constantly getting larger and larger and heavier and heavier. The Sun's gravity would of course become real great and would suck the earth in. Plus the Sun would be bigger and burn the earth up. It can't possibly be true that it's billions of years old.
Now, the 5 million tons per second rate is slightly exaggerated, but still within reason. The 5 billion (109) years figure is also slightly high, but still within reason (we can safely ignore the 20 billion year figure as him misspeaking on a radio show).
So what do you think of that young-earth claim?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2727 by Kleinman, posted 01-06-2023 3:24 PM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2729 by Kleinman, posted 01-06-2023 5:05 PM dwise1 has replied

  
Kleinman
Member
Posts: 1708
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 2729 of 2851 (904757)
01-06-2023 5:05 PM
Reply to: Message 2728 by dwise1
01-06-2023 4:47 PM


Re: Forewarned.
dwise1:
Please, please take a class in biology. Preferably one that teaches evolution. Or maybe physical anthropology would be better (as per Dr Eugenie Scott's story; see below (not for you, but rather for those unafraid to learn something) ). Perhaps then you would finally no longer be so terrified of ringo's question that you've been running away from for ... how many months?:
ringo:
Do you understand yet that A → B and A → C are NOT the same as B → C ?

It is good to know that ringo isn't the only one that knows that DU → MB. So when is the master of C-- programming going to explain to us that since the internet exists, universal common descent is true? It won't be because he understands the physics and mathematics of descent with modification or how drug resistance evolves and why cancer treatments fail. Try to understand the mathematics for descent with modification. It is simple enough that even a
C-- programmer can understand it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2728 by dwise1, posted 01-06-2023 4:47 PM dwise1 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2732 by dwise1, posted 01-06-2023 5:44 PM Kleinman has replied

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 3773
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 2730 of 2851 (904759)
01-06-2023 5:23 PM
Reply to: Message 2727 by Kleinman
01-06-2023 3:24 PM


Re: Forewarned.
Conman the Bullshit Peddler thinks he's a gypsy mind reader.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2727 by Kleinman, posted 01-06-2023 3:24 PM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2731 by Kleinman, posted 01-06-2023 5:43 PM Tanypteryx has not replied

  
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