Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
0 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,817 Year: 3,074/9,624 Month: 919/1,588 Week: 102/223 Day: 13/17 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Rebuttal To Creationists - "Since We Can't Directly Observe Evolution..."
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 2596 of 2926 (903766)
12-16-2022 12:30 PM
Reply to: Message 2595 by Kleinman
12-16-2022 12:20 PM


Kleinman writes:
So that's why ringo posts those links, they're floating around the internet.
Keep flailing.

Come all of you cowboys all over this land,
I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command:
To hold a six shooter, and never to run
As long as there's bullets in both of your guns.
-- Woody Guthrie

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2595 by Kleinman, posted 12-16-2022 12:20 PM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2597 by Kleinman, posted 12-16-2022 1:59 PM ringo has replied

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 335 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 2597 of 2926 (903770)
12-16-2022 1:59 PM
Reply to: Message 2596 by ringo
12-16-2022 12:30 PM


Kleinman:
So that's why ringo posts those links, they're floating around the internet.
ringo:
Keep flailing.

I'm not the one claiming there are links that explain how drug resistance evolves and why cancer treatments fail. Well, except for these. For a single selection pressure:
The basic science and mathematics of random mutation and natural selection
Abd for multiple simultaneous selection pressure:
The mathematics of random mutation and natural selection for multiple simultaneous selection pressures and the evolution of antimicrobial drug resistance
See how easy it is.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2596 by ringo, posted 12-16-2022 12:30 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2598 by AZPaul3, posted 12-16-2022 2:18 PM Kleinman has replied
 Message 2617 by ringo, posted 12-17-2022 10:39 AM Kleinman has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


(3)
Message 2598 of 2926 (903772)
12-16-2022 2:18 PM
Reply to: Message 2597 by Kleinman
12-16-2022 1:59 PM


I'm not the one claiming there are links that explain how drug resistance evolves and why cancer treatments fail. Well, except for these. For a single selection pressure:
The basic science and mathematics of random mutation and natural selection
Abd for multiple simultaneous selection pressure:
The mathematics of random mutation and natural selection for multiple simultaneous selection pressures and the evolution of antimicrobial drug resistance
CAUTION: The listed papers above are considered to be bogus, filled with incorrect math and inappropriate conclusions.
The reader is advised to disregard their content as well as their author.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2597 by Kleinman, posted 12-16-2022 1:59 PM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2599 by Kleinman, posted 12-16-2022 2:50 PM AZPaul3 has replied

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 335 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 2599 of 2926 (903774)
12-16-2022 2:50 PM
Reply to: Message 2598 by AZPaul3
12-16-2022 2:18 PM


Kleinman:
I'm not the one claiming there are links that explain how drug resistance evolves and why cancer treatments fail. Well, except for these. For a single selection pressure:The basic science and mathematics of random mutation and natural selection
Abd for multiple simultaneous selection pressure:
The mathematics of random mutation and natural selection for multiple simultaneous selection pressures and the evolution of antimicrobial drug resistance
AZPaul3:
CAUTION: The listed papers above are considered to be bogus, filled with incorrect math and inappropriate conclusions.

The reader is advised to disregard their content as well as their author.

AZPaul3 will now give the correct explanation of how drug resistance evolves and why cancer treatments fail! We all could use a good laugh.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2598 by AZPaul3, posted 12-16-2022 2:18 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2601 by AZPaul3, posted 12-16-2022 3:57 PM Kleinman has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9973
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.7


(2)
Message 2600 of 2926 (903780)
12-16-2022 3:36 PM
Reply to: Message 2594 by Kleinman
12-16-2022 12:19 PM


Kleinman writes:
I put forward the standard definition used in any introductory probability text. I can't help it if you haven't studied introductory probability theory. That would explain why you don't understand stochastic processes such as descent with modification and recombination. Your training in mathematics and science is pathetic.
You claimed that the addition rule meant that the frequencies of two mutations at different loci could not add up to more than 1. Remember that?
Care to retract that claim? Or is it you that doesn't understand math?
If the population size is less than the carrying capacity, then competition will be minimal to none. That is clearly demonstrated in the Kishony experiment.
No, it isn't. Bacteria were continually competing with each other for food in that experiment. Now you are demonstrating you don't know how the Kishony experiment works.
You are now claiming that evolution works the fastest when there is no competition. That's false. No evolution takes place if there is no competition. It is competition that drives evolution.
Sure, biological competition amplifies alleles in both the Desai and Peabody experiment. They do this by allowing 90 and 55 generations of constant selection and using a single selection pressure. This doesn't happen with HIV, weeds, insects, and many other examples of evolution when a varying environment and multiple simultaneous selection pressures are acting on the population.
Prove it. Prove that there are no beneficial mutations being amplified in these populations.
You still don't get it and are a very slow learner. Descent with modification works the same way for asexual and sexual replicators.
No it doesn't, you fucking moron.
quote:
We find that sex alters the molecular signatures of adaptation. We observe similar proportions of synonymous, nonsynonymous, and intergenic mutations segregating in sexual and asexual lines (Fig. 1b). Consistent with earlier work21, in asexual populations these types of mutation are roughly equally likely to fix, conditional on reaching observable frequency (Fig. 1b and Extended Data Table 3). This indicates that natural selection cannot efficiently distinguish between their effects. In contrast, fewer mutations fix in sexual populations, and these mutations are overwhelmingly nonsynonymous. These observations suggest that sex improves the efficiency of selection, so that only beneficial mutations fix.
Sex speeds adaptation by altering the dynamics of molecular evolution | Nature
Once again, you fail to understand the physical and mathematical facts of how evolution works. The mathematics of descent with modification tells you how many replications the population will need for adaptive mutation(s) to occur.
And you are such a fucking moron that you even get this easy part wrong. You think the rate of adaptive mutations is equal to the mutation rate. IT ISN'T. The rate of adaptive mutations changes with the number of possible beneficial mutations in a given environment, something that is never a part of your math.
You might not like the fact that the multiplication rule applies to joint probabilities such as two or more beneficial mutations occurring or an adaptive recombination event occurring but it is a physical and mathematical fact of life.
You fail to understand that it isn't a fact in sexually reproducing populations.
You still aren't getting it slow poke. They used a constant environment and a single selection pressure.
That doesn't fucking matter you fucking moron.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2594 by Kleinman, posted 12-16-2022 12:19 PM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2602 by Kleinman, posted 12-16-2022 5:01 PM Taq has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 2601 of 2926 (903786)
12-16-2022 3:57 PM
Reply to: Message 2599 by Kleinman
12-16-2022 2:50 PM


Kleinman Admits He's A Fraud.
AZPaul3 will now give the correct explanation of how drug resistance evolves and why cancer treatments fail!

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2599 by Kleinman, posted 12-16-2022 2:50 PM Kleinman has not replied

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 335 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 2602 of 2926 (903790)
12-16-2022 5:01 PM
Reply to: Message 2600 by Taq
12-16-2022 3:36 PM


Kleinman:
I put forward the standard definition used in any introductory probability text. I can't help it if you haven't studied introductory probability theory. That would explain why you don't understand stochastic processes such as descent with modification and recombination. Your training in mathematics and science is pathetic.
Taq:
You claimed that the addition rule meant that the frequencies of two mutations at different loci could not add up to more than 1. Remember that?

Care to retract that claim? Or is it you that doesn't understand math?

Pick up any introductory probability theory text and learn how to use the addition rule. You need to learn introductory probability theory.
Kleinman:
If the population size is less than the carrying capacity, then competition will be minimal to none. That is clearly demonstrated in the Kishony experiment.
Taq:
No, it isn't. Bacteria were continually competing with each other for food in that experiment. Now you are demonstrating you don't know how the Kishony experiment works.

You are now claiming that evolution works the fastest when there is no competition. That's false. No evolution takes place if there is no competition. It is competition that drives evolution.

You really don't get it. When the carrying capacity is greater than the population size, the population can become more diverse. Descent with modification works faster when there is no competition. That's why the Kishony experiment gets five adaptive mutations in about 11 days while the Lenski experiment gets about 100 adaptive mutations in 30 years. You don't understand the thermodynamics. You spend too much time doing imaginary problems.
Kleinman:
Sure, biological competition amplifies alleles in both the Desai and Peabody experiment. They do this by allowing 90 and 55 generations of constant selection and using a single selection pressure. This doesn't happen with HIV, weeds, insects, and many other examples of evolution when a varying environment and multiple simultaneous selection pressures are acting on the population.
Taq:
Prove it. Prove that there are no beneficial mutations being amplified in these populations.

If you say so. But that's why adaptive recombination is giving improved fitness in those experiments. Try working more on real examples of evolution instead of your imaginary problems. You might figure out how biological evolution works.
Kleinman:
You still don't get it and are a very slow learner. Descent with modification works the same way for asexual and sexual replicators.
Taq:
No it doesn't, you fucking moron.

You couldn't figure out how descent with modification works for asexual replicators and now you can't figure out how descent with modification works for sexual replicators. You don't know how biological evolution works. You are ignorant of the physics and ignorant of the mathematics and you are a very slow learner.
Kleinman:
Once again, you fail to understand the physical and mathematical facts of how evolution works. The mathematics of descent with modification tells you how many replications the population will need for adaptive mutation(s) to occur.
Taq:
And you are such a fucking moron that you even get this easy part wrong. You think the rate of adaptive mutations is equal to the mutation rate. IT ISN'T. The rate of adaptive mutations changes with the number of possible beneficial mutations in a given environment, something that is never a part of your math.

You are very confused. You should read the following lines in my publication:
The basic science and mathematics of random mutation and natural selection
Then, for our case, the mathematical expression for the possible outcomes for a mutation is
P(−∞ < X < +∞) = P(Ad) + P(Cy) + P(Gu) + P(Th) + P(iAd) + P(iCy) + P(iGu) + P(iTh) + P(del)+… = 1 (1)
where ‘…’ represents any other mutation such as the probability of a double deletion or double insertion of the base at that site and any other forms of mutation you might imagine could be included in the sample space.
One could think of these outcomes as equivalent to an unfair die (with more than six sides) where a roll of this die is more likely to give a substitution mutation rather than an insertion or deletion of a base.
Then, the probability for a beneficial mutation A occurring on a single member in a single replication is
P(A) = P(BeneficialA)???? (2)
where P(BeneficialA) has a value between 0 and 1.
If the beneficial mutation is the substitution of the Ad base, then P(BeneficialA) = P(Ad); if the beneficial mutation is the substitution of a Gu base, then P(BeneficialA) = P(Gu); if the deletion of the base is the beneficial mutation, then P(BeneficialA) = P(del); and so on. With certainty, we know that 0 ⩽ P(BeneficialA) ⩽ 1.
So you have shown that not have you not learn physics and mathematics, and you haven't learned how to read as well.
Kleinman:
You might not like the fact that the multiplication rule applies to joint probabilities such as two or more beneficial mutations occurring or an adaptive recombination event occurring but it is a physical and mathematical fact of life.
Taq:
You fail to understand that it isn't a fact in sexually reproducing populations.

My, my. You don't think that sexually reproducing populations have to get adaptive alleles with two or more beneficial mutations. You should publish that little bit of wisdom. No wonder you can't explain how drug resistance evolves and why cancer treatments fail.
Kleinman:
You still aren't getting it slow poke. They used a constant environment and a single selection pressure.
Taq:
That doesn't fucking matter you fucking moron.

We already know that you don't understand the physics and mathematics of biological evolution. Do you think that stamping your feet make reptiles evolve into birds and fish evolve into mammals? You are moved to the C- team to join AZPaul3 and ringo. They approve of your ignorance of biological evolution. Perhaps you could chase bugs with Tany and tell everyone that a germ cell line can get 200k retroviral infections and they do no harm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2600 by Taq, posted 12-16-2022 3:36 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2603 by AZPaul3, posted 12-16-2022 5:14 PM Kleinman has replied
 Message 2642 by Taq, posted 12-19-2022 12:04 PM Kleinman has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


(2)
Message 2603 of 2926 (903792)
12-16-2022 5:14 PM
Reply to: Message 2602 by Kleinman
12-16-2022 5:01 PM


You are moved to the C- team to join AZPaul3 and ringo. They approve of your ignorance of biological evolution.
I do indeed approve of Taq's considerable knowledge on these subjects.
Considerably more than Kleinman the Fraud's.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2602 by Kleinman, posted 12-16-2022 5:01 PM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2604 by Kleinman, posted 12-16-2022 5:27 PM AZPaul3 has replied
 Message 2605 by Tanypteryx, posted 12-16-2022 6:00 PM AZPaul3 has not replied

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 335 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 2604 of 2926 (903793)
12-16-2022 5:27 PM
Reply to: Message 2603 by AZPaul3
12-16-2022 5:14 PM


Kleinman:
You are moved to the C- team to join AZPaul3 and ringo. They approve of your ignorance of biological evolution.
AZPaul3:
I do indeed approve of Taq's considerable knowledge on these subjects.

Considerably more than Kleinman the Fraud's.

AZPaul3 can't explain how drug resistance evolves and why cancer treatments fail gives his approval to Taq who can't explain how drug resistance evolves and why cancer treatments fail.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2603 by AZPaul3, posted 12-16-2022 5:14 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2607 by AZPaul3, posted 12-16-2022 6:27 PM Kleinman has replied

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4344
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.9


(2)
Message 2605 of 2926 (903795)
12-16-2022 6:00 PM
Reply to: Message 2603 by AZPaul3
12-16-2022 5:14 PM


I do indeed approve of Taq's considerable knowledge on these subjects.
Me too! He has presented the evidence that completely, step by step, refutes Conman's claims, quite patiently despite Conman's phony misunderstanding and misrepresenting his (Taq's) statements.
Conman the Bullshitter's bizarre continuous stream of vitriol and insults is something I have never encountered before in discussions of scientific subjects. I am at a loss to explain what motivates his behavior here and everywhere else he's left a record on the web. In this thread he has actually only endlessly repeated the same dozen or so sentences and clickbait to his vanity "papers," but it's all just the same bullshit.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2603 by AZPaul3, posted 12-16-2022 5:14 PM AZPaul3 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2606 by Kleinman, posted 12-16-2022 6:16 PM Tanypteryx has replied
 Message 2608 by dwise1, posted 12-16-2022 6:32 PM Tanypteryx has not replied

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 335 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 2606 of 2926 (903796)
12-16-2022 6:16 PM
Reply to: Message 2605 by Tanypteryx
12-16-2022 6:00 PM


AZPaul3:
I do indeed approve of Taq's considerable knowledge on these subjects.
Tanypteryx:
Me too! He has presented the evidence that completely, step by step, refutes Conman's claims, quite patiently despite Conman's phony misunderstanding and misrepresenting his (Taq's) statements.

The bug chaser that can't explain how drug resistance evolves and why cancer treatments fail also approves of one that can't explain how drug resistance evolves and why cancer treatments fail. They do know that reptiles evolve into birds and fish evolve into mammals. They also know that a germ cell line can get 200k retroviral infections and it doesn't harm that cell line. This bug chaser thinks what it takes to be a good scientist is to not learn physics and mathematics and it shows.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2605 by Tanypteryx, posted 12-16-2022 6:00 PM Tanypteryx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2609 by Tanypteryx, posted 12-16-2022 6:33 PM Kleinman has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 2607 of 2926 (903798)
12-16-2022 6:27 PM
Reply to: Message 2604 by Kleinman
12-16-2022 5:27 PM


AZPaul3 can't explain how drug resistance evolves and why cancer treatments fail gives his approval to Taq who can't explain how drug resistance evolves and why cancer treatments fail.
Not right. We can. The issue is, Kleinman, you can't.
Your conclusions are known incompetent based on erroneous math.
You're a fraud.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2604 by Kleinman, posted 12-16-2022 5:27 PM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2610 by Kleinman, posted 12-16-2022 6:55 PM AZPaul3 has replied

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 5930
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.8


(1)
Message 2608 of 2926 (903799)
12-16-2022 6:32 PM
Reply to: Message 2605 by Tanypteryx
12-16-2022 6:00 PM


Conman the Bullshitter's bizarre continuous stream of vitriol and insults is something I have never encountered before in discussions of scientific subjects. I am at a loss to explain what motivates his behavior here and everywhere else he's left a record on the web. In this thread he has actually only endlessly repeated the same dozen or so sentences and clickbait to his vanity "papers," but it's all just the same bullshit.
What motivates all of Kleinman's horrific behavior?
He's a creationist. That's all creationists have to work with.
And he's also a fundamentalist Christian. Above all, they hate the truth.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2605 by Tanypteryx, posted 12-16-2022 6:00 PM Tanypteryx has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2611 by Kleinman, posted 12-16-2022 6:56 PM dwise1 has replied

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4344
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.9


Message 2609 of 2926 (903800)
12-16-2022 6:33 PM
Reply to: Message 2606 by Kleinman
12-16-2022 6:16 PM


Like I said, no content from Conman the Bullshit Peddler, just repetitious drivel. It does not look like he is going to have any success at sabotaging science.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2606 by Kleinman, posted 12-16-2022 6:16 PM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2612 by Kleinman, posted 12-16-2022 6:57 PM Tanypteryx has not replied

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 335 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 2610 of 2926 (903801)
12-16-2022 6:55 PM
Reply to: Message 2607 by AZPaul3
12-16-2022 6:27 PM


Kleinman:
AZPaul3 can't explain how drug resistance evolves and why cancer treatments fail gives his approval to Taq who can't explain how drug resistance evolves and why cancer treatments fail.
AZPaul3:
Not right. We can. The issue is, Kleinman, you can't.

AZPaul3 can explain how drug resistance evolves and why cancer treatments fail as well as he can explain how reptiles evolve into birds and fish evolve into mammals. Zilch.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2607 by AZPaul3, posted 12-16-2022 6:27 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2613 by AZPaul3, posted 12-16-2022 7:11 PM Kleinman has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024