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Author Topic:   Rebuttal To Creationists - "Since We Can't Directly Observe Evolution..."
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 2251 of 2926 (902786)
11-27-2022 3:25 PM
Reply to: Message 2247 by Kleinman
11-27-2022 2:44 PM


The People v Alan Kleinman
AK, replying to dwise1 writes:
All I have to do is ask you to explain the evolution of drug resistance and why cancer treatments fail and ask you to do the mathematics of the Kishony and Lenski experiments. You fail and you can't hide it with smilies. You don't know how biological evolution works and your posts reveal that.
As I said in the last post, you seem to feel better (smarter? Validated as a man with God's special and unique intelligence?) Is this why you justify not being mainstream science (some claim you are not truly in the same camp as scientists) Is this because you yourself are wrong or is it because an ever-growing list of critics are all wrong for failing to do your math the way that you want them to do/understand it?
Some honesty would be appreciated in your reply.

The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” - Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894).
When both religious and non-religious people reach the same conclusions then you know religion isn't the reason.--Percy
Nor are Democrats the best party or the only one we should have. -Phat,2022 addressing The Peanut Gallery.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2247 by Kleinman, posted 11-27-2022 2:44 PM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2253 by dwise1, posted 11-27-2022 3:54 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 2255 by Kleinman, posted 11-27-2022 4:34 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


(1)
Message 2252 of 2926 (902790)
11-27-2022 3:45 PM
Reply to: Message 2249 by Kleinman
11-27-2022 3:08 PM


And he certainly can't do the physics and mathematics of the Kishony and Lenski experiments ...

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2249 by Kleinman, posted 11-27-2022 3:08 PM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2256 by Kleinman, posted 11-27-2022 4:35 PM AZPaul3 has not replied

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 5930
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.8


(1)
Message 2253 of 2926 (902792)
11-27-2022 3:54 PM
Reply to: Message 2251 by Phat
11-27-2022 3:25 PM


Re: The People v Alan Kleinman
Some honesty would be appreciated in your reply.
I'm afraid you will be disappointed. Kleinman is a creationist and therefore cannot be honest.
It's not so much that honesty is an alien concept for creationists, but rather that it is anathema to them.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2251 by Phat, posted 11-27-2022 3:25 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2257 by Kleinman, posted 11-27-2022 4:37 PM dwise1 has replied

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 335 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 2254 of 2926 (902795)
11-27-2022 4:32 PM
Reply to: Message 2250 by Phat
11-27-2022 3:21 PM


Re: A Simple Question
Phat:
Before we go any further, I want to know about your beliefs. No math is needed for this one except for perhaps 1x1x1.

Do you believe in a higher power?

Are you aware of how Christians (myself included) sometimes conflate Gods omniscience with their own ideas and need to prop themselves up by visiting many forums, publishing a few papers, and feeling like legends in their own minds simply because nobody allows themselves to be set up to be knocked down by forcing themselves to agree with your theories? I know I do it. The day the peanut gallery agrees with me is the day I would question my own sanity.

But I DO believe in God, known through Jesus Christ and alive today. My simple question is whether you believe in Him.
I don't know how that makes any difference in a debate about how evolution works. The laws of physics and mathematics are the same for everyone. It isn't easy to debate these physical laws with people that don't know the least thing about them. But in answer to your question, I'm a Messianic Jew (for AZPaul3 sake about me being a Catholic). He really grovels around looking for an insult. By the way, those few papers explain how descent with modification and recombination works. It also explains the Kishony and Lenski experiments and why 3 drug combination therapy works for treating HIV and why combination selection pressures work for treating weeds and insects. It's all about the multiplication rule of probabilities (which Edward Tatum wrote about in his 1958 Nobel Laureate Lecture).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2250 by Phat, posted 11-27-2022 3:21 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2260 by AZPaul3, posted 11-27-2022 4:47 PM Kleinman has replied
 Message 2275 by Theodoric, posted 11-27-2022 7:01 PM Kleinman has replied

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 335 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 2255 of 2926 (902796)
11-27-2022 4:34 PM
Reply to: Message 2251 by Phat
11-27-2022 3:25 PM


Re: The People v Alan Kleinman
Kleinman:
All I have to do is ask you to explain the evolution of drug resistance and why cancer treatments fail and ask you to do the mathematics of the Kishony and Lenski experiments. You fail and you can't hide it with smilies. You don't know how biological evolution works and your posts reveal that.
Phat:
As I said in the last post, you seem to feel better (smarter? Validated as a man with God's special and unique intelligence?) Is this why you justify not being mainstream science (some claim you are not truly in the same camp as scientists) Is this because you yourself are wrong or is it because an ever-growing list of critics are all wrong for failing to do your math the way that you want them to do/understand it?

Some honesty would be appreciated in your reply.

I have a God-given gift. He gave me the gift to do applied mathematics. You don't have to be smarter than these people. You just have to explain the fundamentals of biological evolution which they can't. Drug-resistant infections and failed cancer treatments have been around for more than 60 years and they have made no headway in explaining how this happens. Like I said in my last post, Edward Tatum gives an important clue about how this works in his 1958 Nobel Laureate Lecture. They can refuse to read and understand what he said but the price is paid by those with drug-resistant infections and failed cancer treatments. There is no good excuse for this taking so many years to solve. They have plenty of experimental data (the Kishony and Lenski experiments) and empirical data. This is a failure on the part of biologists. I will not let their stubbornness stop me from explaining this and I will continue to remind them that they have failed to explain the evolution of drug resistance and why cancer treatments fail. This list of critics needs to explain that but they fail.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2251 by Phat, posted 11-27-2022 3:25 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 335 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 2256 of 2926 (902797)
11-27-2022 4:35 PM
Reply to: Message 2252 by AZPaul3
11-27-2022 3:45 PM


Kleinman:
And he certainly can't do the physics and mathematics of the Kishony and Lenski experiments ...
Here you go Phat, this is AZPaul3's explanation of the evolution of drug resistance and why cancer treatments fail. And let's not forget AZPaul3's explanation of the Kishony and Lenski experiments.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2252 by AZPaul3, posted 11-27-2022 3:45 PM AZPaul3 has not replied

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 335 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 2257 of 2926 (902798)
11-27-2022 4:37 PM
Reply to: Message 2253 by dwise1
11-27-2022 3:54 PM


Re: The People v Alan Kleinman
Phat:
Some honesty would be appreciated in your reply.
dwise1:
I'm afraid you will be disappointed. Kleinman is a creationist and therefore cannot be honest.

It's not so much that honesty is an alien concept for creationists, but rather that it is anathema to them.

dwise1 couldn't tell the truth from one of his fantasies. Here's another one that can't explain how drug resistance evolves or why cancer treatments fail. Perhaps with his kind of thinking, it will take another 100 years for biologists to figure this out, but not if I can help it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2253 by dwise1, posted 11-27-2022 3:54 PM dwise1 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2259 by dwise1, posted 11-27-2022 4:42 PM Kleinman has not replied

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 5930
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.8


Message 2258 of 2926 (902799)
11-27-2022 4:39 PM
Reply to: Message 2247 by Kleinman
11-27-2022 2:44 PM


Re: Usable energy
And you persist in piling ever more garbage upon garbage upon garbage.
Creationists can never ever answer any question nor respond to any remark. They are completely incapable of it, mostly because they are too stupid and ignorant but mainly because they are thoroughly dishonest.
Because they are too stupid and ignorant to even understand their own claims, they have to resort to scripts -- I saw such scripts permeating all the proselytizing training materials of the Jesus Freaks who were the founders of fundamentalist and evangelical Christianity.
And paramount in those scripts are the "got-cha" "questions" and exorbitantly monumental challenges requiring rare expertise and enormous resources and time (eg, "explain every single step in the evolution from bacteria to a blue whale" which is an actual common "challenge") which are only intended to change the subject and to try to intimidate your opponent -- that is exactly what you are doing and is that you are doing, creationist. In practice those dishonest tricks are to drive any opposition away (ie, us trying to play chess with a pigeon (ie, you creationists) who knocks over all the pieces, craps on the board, and then flies off to brag to his friends of yet another victory), though in the Jesus Freak proselytizing scripts its purpose is to completely unnerve and disorient your victim preparing him for conversion (the entire script is so cartoonish that you can read it in almost any Chick Pubs tract).
But you creationists do have an unfair advantage. Unlike you, we are honest and actually interested in the truth, so we endeavor to be honest and truthful when presenting information or answering a question and try to stay within our own area of expertise when doing so. But you creationists have no such constraints so you will make proclamations about all manner of subjects, and just make up stuff on the spur of the moment, pulling it out of your ass (which, BTW, is the "True Face" of your troll god which you kiss when worshipping him -- seriously, look it up).
You fail and you can't hide it with smilies.
I'm hiding nothing. I really am laughing at you. We are all laughing at you! Just as everybody else in all the forums you have inflicted your ludicrous nonsense on were all laughing at you.
Indeed, your "replies" are so stupid and devoid of any content that the only response possible is to laugh at them -- ie, they are little more than diarrhea. Some will laugh at them out of embarrassment, while others will laugh simply because that's all you have.
You are nothing but a stupid troll. Nobody can possibly take you seriously! Just because you can slap a bandaid on an owie or you can do arithmetic you think that you're some kind of god-like genius? You're a fool! You're nothing but a stupid creationist! And, like your Orange Calf, you are such an incredible loser because you completely lack any kind of self-awareness.
Consider the following a parable, though in this case the meaning is not hidden:
In most group dance classes, most of us rotate to different partners during the lesson. One day my Lindy instructor explain to the class why that was. Some students are better than others, so with some partners you will have problems doing the move but not with others. So if you're having problems with a partner, don't worry about it because you will soon rotate to a new partner who hopefully is better. Then he added: but if you're having problems with every partner, then you are the problem.
Littleman, have you noticed by now that every single forum you go to you have problems on that forum. That nobody ever recognizes your "prodigious genius"? That everybody else is a problem?
Well, that means that you are the problem!
Shouldn't take a genius to figure out that one!
You don't know how biological evolution works and your posts reveal that.
I know far better than you how biological evolution works. I even know the difference between sexual and asexual reproduction, something that you still don't know. And I also know the importance of math models -- you cannot "do the math" and get meaningful results without any math model or, far worse, with the wrong model. And since you demonstrate that you do not know how biological evolution works, your math being based on your inability to understand evolution is nichts als ganz Scheiß.
Remember ringo's question for you, one of the most basic questions regarding descent?
ringo writes:
Do you understand yet that A → B and A → C are NOT the same as B → C ?
You can't answer that question, can you? If you were to know something about biological evolution, you would be able to, but you can't.
I can answer that question, because I do understand biological evolution. Furthermore, I also know what that question is referring to and why he's asking you it. I even had to explain it to candle2, who being a typical creationist refused to even look at the explanation, afraid to learn something.
Just as you, creationist, refuse to even approach his question. Because your answer will expose you as not understanding biological evolution ... and that all your handwaving BS about "evolution" (whatever silly creationist nonsense you believe in that you call by that name) is just more of your garbage.
You're nothing but a stupid creationist. Or in the words of Marcus Lycus that I've shared before with your circle-jerk buddy, Dredge (who also will never learn):
quote:
But you'll never learn, you'll be a eunuch all your life.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2247 by Kleinman, posted 11-27-2022 2:44 PM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2261 by Kleinman, posted 11-27-2022 4:58 PM dwise1 has replied

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 5930
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.8


Message 2259 of 2926 (902800)
11-27-2022 4:42 PM
Reply to: Message 2257 by Kleinman
11-27-2022 4:37 PM


Re: The People v Alan Kleinman
Right on schedule with more of your troll garbage.
Are things falling apart in your circle-jerk with Dredge? Are you trying to compete with him to be the worst stupid troll on the forum?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2257 by Kleinman, posted 11-27-2022 4:37 PM Kleinman has not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 2260 of 2926 (902802)
11-27-2022 4:47 PM
Reply to: Message 2254 by Kleinman
11-27-2022 4:32 PM


Re: A Simple Question
I'm a Messianic Jew (for AZPaul3 sake about me being a Catholic)
Is there a difference?

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2254 by Kleinman, posted 11-27-2022 4:32 PM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2262 by dwise1, posted 11-27-2022 5:02 PM AZPaul3 has not replied
 Message 2263 by Kleinman, posted 11-27-2022 5:03 PM AZPaul3 has replied

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 335 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 2261 of 2926 (902804)
11-27-2022 4:58 PM
Reply to: Message 2258 by dwise1
11-27-2022 4:39 PM


Re: Usable energy
dwise1:
And you persist in piling ever more garbage upon garbage upon garbage.
It is obvious that you don't know how drug resistance evolves and why cancer treatments fail. And you giving us a physical and mathematical explanation of the Kishony and Lenski experiment isn't going to happen. So write on.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2258 by dwise1, posted 11-27-2022 4:39 PM dwise1 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2264 by dwise1, posted 11-27-2022 5:07 PM Kleinman has replied

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 5930
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.8


Message 2262 of 2926 (902805)
11-27-2022 5:02 PM
Reply to: Message 2260 by AZPaul3
11-27-2022 4:47 PM


Re: A Simple Question
Kleinman writes:
I'm a Messianic Jew (for AZPaul3 sake about me being a Catholic)
Is there a difference?
Actually, yeah. The same difference as between Catholics and Protestants (neither of whom considers the other to be Christian, though Protestants then turn around and do the same to most other Protestants -- even fundamentalists denounce most other fundamentalist sects for not being "true Christians").
Messianic Judaism a Protestant Christian sect which grew out of the Jesus Freak Movement of the 1960's -- or rather the Jesus Freaks triggered a change in the Jewish converts away from assimilation:
quote:
The Messianic Jewish movement emerged in the United States in the 1960s. Prior to this time, Jewish converts assimilated into gentile Christianity, as the church required abandoning their Jewishness and assuming gentile ways to receive baptism. Peter Hocken postulates that the Jesus movement which swept the nation in the 1960s triggered a change from Hebrew Christians to Messianic Jews, and was a distinctly charismatic movement. These Jews wanted to "stay Jewish while believing in Jesus". This impulse was amplified by the results of the Six-Day War and the restoration of Jerusalem to Jewish control.
So the guy is a fundie. And a creationist. Not much different from candle2 -- they do both have similar styles, though at least Kleinman appears to be better educated even though he doesn't use it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2260 by AZPaul3, posted 11-27-2022 4:47 PM AZPaul3 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2265 by Kleinman, posted 11-27-2022 5:10 PM dwise1 has replied

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 335 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 2263 of 2926 (902806)
11-27-2022 5:03 PM
Reply to: Message 2260 by AZPaul3
11-27-2022 4:47 PM


Re: A Simple Question
Kleinman:
I'm a Messianic Jew (for AZPaul3 sake about me being a Catholic)
AZPaul3:
Is there a difference?

Depends. But there is a difference in that you can't explain the evolution of drug resistance and why cancer treatments fail. And you don't do any better in explaining the physics and mathematics of the Kishony and Lenski experiments. What, no picture? I hope you like it dry, real dry.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2260 by AZPaul3, posted 11-27-2022 4:47 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2267 by AZPaul3, posted 11-27-2022 5:39 PM Kleinman has replied

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 5930
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.8


Message 2264 of 2926 (902807)
11-27-2022 5:07 PM
Reply to: Message 2261 by Kleinman
11-27-2022 4:58 PM


Re: Usable energy
Yep! You are completely unable to reply, as usual.





We should call you "Trash Man". Or "Garbage for Brains" since all you can spew is the same old stupid garbage over and over again.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2261 by Kleinman, posted 11-27-2022 4:58 PM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2266 by Kleinman, posted 11-27-2022 5:13 PM dwise1 has replied

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 335 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 2265 of 2926 (902808)
11-27-2022 5:10 PM
Reply to: Message 2262 by dwise1
11-27-2022 5:02 PM


Re: A Simple Question
Kleinman:
I'm a Messianic Jew (for AZPaul3 sake about me being a Catholic)
AZPaul3:
Is there a difference?
dwise1:
Actually, yeah. The same difference as between Catholics and Protestants (neither of whom considers the other to be Christian, though Protestants then turn around and do the same to most other Protestants -- even fundamentalists denounce most other fundamentalist sects for not being "true Christians").


Well now, dwise1 now is an expert in religion. I hope it is better than his understanding of biological evolution which is zero. Of course, any time he wants, he can explain how drug resistance evolves and why cancer treatments fail.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2262 by dwise1, posted 11-27-2022 5:02 PM dwise1 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2277 by dwise1, posted 11-27-2022 7:19 PM Kleinman has replied

  
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