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Author Topic:   Rebuttal To Creationists - "Since We Can't Directly Observe Evolution..."
Kleinman
Member
Posts: 1505
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 2116 of 2416 (902511)
11-24-2022 12:52 PM
Reply to: Message 2112 by ringo
11-24-2022 11:52 AM


Re: Resorting to spamming us
ringo:
So you are capable of learning. Congratulations.
Kleinman:
You are absolutely right, dumb dumb.
ringo:
And you'll probably learn more by respecting your teachers.


Whoever taught you thermodynamics blew it.
Happy Thanksgiving to you all.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2112 by ringo, posted 11-24-2022 11:52 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2122 by ringo, posted 11-25-2022 10:44 AM Kleinman has replied

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 20492
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.2


(3)
Message 2117 of 2416 (902516)
11-24-2022 1:29 PM
Reply to: Message 2113 by Kleinman
11-24-2022 12:46 PM


Re: Kleinman does not know asexual vs sexual
Kleinman writes:
Since you know so much about biological evolution, could you explain the evolution of drug resistance and why cancer treatments fail?
That has been explained and you clearly did not understand. It's well beyond your level, which is why I offered to answer kindergarten-level questions for you.
First of all, do you understand the difference between "B and C evolved from A" and "C evolved from B"?
Kleinman writes:
You should argue the mathematics when it is done like Taq does it.
You shouldn't try to hide a lie with smoke and mirrors. I demonstrated that Lenski did NOT acknowlege you.

Come all of you cowboys all over this land,
I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command:
To hold a six shooter, and never to run
As long as there's bullets in both of your guns.
-- Woody Guthrie

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2113 by Kleinman, posted 11-24-2022 12:46 PM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2118 by Kleinman, posted 11-25-2022 8:20 AM ringo has replied
 Message 2120 by Theodoric, posted 11-25-2022 10:42 AM ringo has replied

  
Kleinman
Member
Posts: 1505
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 2118 of 2416 (902543)
11-25-2022 8:20 AM
Reply to: Message 2117 by ringo
11-24-2022 1:29 PM


Re: Kleinman does not know asexual vs sexual
Kleinman:
Since you know so much about biological evolution, could you explain the evolution of drug resistance and why cancer treatments fail?
ringo:
That has been explained and you clearly did not understand. It's well beyond your level, which is why I offered to answer kindergarten-level questions for you.

First of all, do you understand the difference between "B and C evolved from A" and "C evolved from B"?

All zero of your explanations and all zero of your links to papers that explain the evolution of drug resistance and why cancer treatments fail are the most convincing. And your explanation of "B and C evolved from A" and "C evolved from B" shows your degree of mathematical understanding of biological evolution. Now I know why "D and U evolved from M and B". So, please go on.
Kleinman:
You should argue the mathematics when it is done like Taq does it.
ringo:
You shouldn't try to hide a lie with smoke and mirrors. I demonstrated that Lenski did NOT acknowlege you.

Taq hasn't done the mathematics of the Lenski experiment, he does the mathematics of imaginary populations with an imaginary selection condition and as many variants as he wants that increase in fitness without ever going to fixation (though he calls it fixation). And Lenski hasn't acknowledged my explanation of why biological competition slows adaptation based on the first law of thermodynamics but he has heard it. So, let him continue to not understand why biological competition slows adaptation or let him learn how the first law of thermodynamics affects his and all experiments of descent with modification in a limited carrying capacity environment (as well as all real examples of biological evolution). Of course, if he did understand how the first law of thermodynamics affects his experiment and understood how descent with modification works, he could mathematically model his own experiment, which he hasn't done.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2117 by ringo, posted 11-24-2022 1:29 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2123 by ringo, posted 11-25-2022 10:52 AM Kleinman has replied
 Message 2124 by Theodoric, posted 11-25-2022 10:54 AM Kleinman has replied

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 20492
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 2119 of 2416 (902545)
11-25-2022 10:39 AM
Reply to: Message 2114 by Kleinman
11-24-2022 12:49 PM


Re: Kleinman Admits He's A Fraud.
Kleinman writes:
And you know much better than the experts in probability theory that this math is wrong.
The consensus seems to be that YOUR math is wrong - and that's because your biology is wrong. Nobody has a problem with the REAL math.

Come all of you cowboys all over this land,
I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command:
To hold a six shooter, and never to run
As long as there's bullets in both of your guns.
-- Woody Guthrie

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2114 by Kleinman, posted 11-24-2022 12:49 PM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2126 by Kleinman, posted 11-25-2022 12:04 PM ringo has replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 7848
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 2120 of 2416 (902546)
11-25-2022 10:42 AM
Reply to: Message 2117 by ringo
11-24-2022 1:29 PM


Kleinman still does not know asexual vs sexual
Still waiting for any acknowledgment from him that there is a vast difference between asexual reproduction vs sexual. He must be a real hit with the ladies.
Also, he does not understand that a conversation requires two people. Shaking your fist at and barking at the moon is not a conversation.
Lenski's quick and concise response to me shows that he regards Kleinman as an unstable potential personal threat. I have contacted academics about cranks in the past. Rarely do they respond with such vehemence.

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2117 by ringo, posted 11-24-2022 1:29 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2125 by ringo, posted 11-25-2022 10:54 AM Theodoric has not replied
 Message 2127 by Kleinman, posted 11-25-2022 12:06 PM Theodoric has replied

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 20492
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 2121 of 2416 (902547)
11-25-2022 10:43 AM
Reply to: Message 2115 by Kleinman
11-24-2022 12:51 PM


Re: Kleinman Admits He's A Fraud.
Kleinman writes:
He hasn't acknowledged it yet.
So we're clear on that.
Kleinman writes:
That's why more people are reading these papers all the time.
And more people are reading The Lord of the Rings all the time. Doesn't make it more true.
Kleinman writes:
They must read it because they don't believe it.
There doesn't seem to be anybody who believes it after they read it.

Come all of you cowboys all over this land,
I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command:
To hold a six shooter, and never to run
As long as there's bullets in both of your guns.
-- Woody Guthrie

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2115 by Kleinman, posted 11-24-2022 12:51 PM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2128 by Kleinman, posted 11-25-2022 12:07 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 20492
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 2122 of 2416 (902548)
11-25-2022 10:44 AM
Reply to: Message 2116 by Kleinman
11-24-2022 12:52 PM


Re: Resorting to spamming us
Kleinman writes:
Whoever taught you thermodynamics blew it.
I don't think I've said anything to you about thermodynamics, so why would you say that?
However, I am happy to give you a kindergarten-level lesson in thermodynamics. Go ahead and ask questions.

Come all of you cowboys all over this land,
I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command:
To hold a six shooter, and never to run
As long as there's bullets in both of your guns.
-- Woody Guthrie

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2116 by Kleinman, posted 11-24-2022 12:52 PM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2129 by Kleinman, posted 11-25-2022 12:08 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 20492
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.2


(1)
Message 2123 of 2416 (902550)
11-25-2022 10:52 AM
Reply to: Message 2118 by Kleinman
11-25-2022 8:20 AM


Re: Kleinman does not know asexual vs sexual
Kleinman writes:
And your explanation of "B and C evolved from A" and "C evolved from B" shows your degree of mathematical understanding of biological evolution.
Well, I'm glad you noticed that I expressed it mathematically. But do you understand it?
Kleinman writes:
Now I know why "D and U evolved from M and B". So, please go on.
You're getting ahead of yourself. Stick with A, B and C for now:
B represents reptiles
C represents birds
A represents a common ancestor
So B evolved from A
and C evolved from A
But you have been saying that C evolved from B. That is a serious misunderstanding of biology. (AND a serious misunderstanding of mathemqtics.)
Do you understand yet that you are wrong about B evolving into C?

Come all of you cowboys all over this land,
I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command:
To hold a six shooter, and never to run
As long as there's bullets in both of your guns.
-- Woody Guthrie

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2118 by Kleinman, posted 11-25-2022 8:20 AM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2130 by Kleinman, posted 11-25-2022 12:10 PM ringo has replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 7848
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


(1)
Message 2124 of 2416 (902551)
11-25-2022 10:54 AM
Reply to: Message 2118 by Kleinman
11-25-2022 8:20 AM


1st law of Theromdynamics
You keep bringing up the 1st Law of Thermodynamics but have yet explained why you think its is relevant or an explanation of how it affects evolution.
Go for it,

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2118 by Kleinman, posted 11-25-2022 8:20 AM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2131 by Kleinman, posted 11-25-2022 12:11 PM Theodoric has replied

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 20492
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.2


(1)
Message 2125 of 2416 (902552)
11-25-2022 10:54 AM
Reply to: Message 2120 by Theodoric
11-25-2022 10:42 AM


Re: Kleinman still does not know asexual vs sexual
Theodoric writes:
He must be a real hit with the ladies.
He keeps waiting for them to bud.

Come all of you cowboys all over this land,
I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command:
To hold a six shooter, and never to run
As long as there's bullets in both of your guns.
-- Woody Guthrie

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2120 by Theodoric, posted 11-25-2022 10:42 AM Theodoric has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2132 by Kleinman, posted 11-25-2022 12:12 PM ringo has replied

  
Kleinman
Member
Posts: 1505
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 2126 of 2416 (902562)
11-25-2022 12:04 PM
Reply to: Message 2119 by ringo
11-25-2022 10:39 AM


Re: Kleinman Admits He's A Fraud.
Kleinman:
And you know much better than the experts in probability theory that this math is wrong.
ringo:
The consensus seems to be that YOUR math is wrong - and that's because your biology is wrong. Nobody has a problem with the REAL math.

All you have to do is post a link that shows how antimicrobial resistance evolves and why cancer treatments fail.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2119 by ringo, posted 11-25-2022 10:39 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2133 by ringo, posted 11-25-2022 12:23 PM Kleinman has replied

  
Kleinman
Member
Posts: 1505
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 2127 of 2416 (902563)
11-25-2022 12:06 PM
Reply to: Message 2120 by Theodoric
11-25-2022 10:42 AM


Re: Kleinman still does not know asexual vs sexual
Theodoric:
Still waiting for any acknowledgment from him that there is a vast difference between asexual reproduction vs sexual. He must be a real hit with the ladies.

Also, he does not understand that a conversation requires two people. Shaking your fist at and barking at the moon is not a conversation.

Lenski's quick and concise response to me shows that he regards Kleinman as an unstable potential personal threat. I have contacted academics about cranks in the past. Rarely do they respond with such vehemence.
So, you are claiming that combination therapy doesn't work for HIV, weeds, and insects? Your speculations about sexual reproduction and asexual reproduction are countered by the facts.
Lenski still hasn't posted the correct mathematical explanation of his own experiment and he still doesn't know why competition slows adaptation. These are public facts.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2120 by Theodoric, posted 11-25-2022 10:42 AM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2138 by Theodoric, posted 11-25-2022 12:48 PM Kleinman has replied

  
Kleinman
Member
Posts: 1505
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 2128 of 2416 (902564)
11-25-2022 12:07 PM
Reply to: Message 2121 by ringo
11-25-2022 10:43 AM


Re: Kleinman Admits He's A Fraud.
Kleinman:
He hasn't acknowledged it yet.
ringo:
So we're clear on that.

He also doesn't know why competition slows adaptation in his own experiment and he hasn't given a correct mathematical explanation of his own experiment. So we're clear on that.
Kleinman:
That's why more people are reading these papers all the time.
ringo:
And more people are reading The Lord of the Rings all the time. Doesn't make it more true.

Does the Lord of the Rings explain the evolution of drug resistance and why cancer treatments fail?
Kleinman:
They must read it because they don't believe it.
ringo:
There doesn't seem to be anybody who believes it after they read it.

You can believe what you want and you can be wrong about whatever you want.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2121 by ringo, posted 11-25-2022 10:43 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2134 by ringo, posted 11-25-2022 12:26 PM Kleinman has replied

  
Kleinman
Member
Posts: 1505
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 2129 of 2416 (902565)
11-25-2022 12:08 PM
Reply to: Message 2122 by ringo
11-25-2022 10:44 AM


Re: Resorting to spamming us
Kleinman:
Whoever taught you thermodynamics blew it.
ringo:
I don't think I've said anything to you about thermodynamics, so why would you say that?

However, I am happy to give you a kindergarten-level lesson in thermodynamics. Go ahead and ask questions.

So, you never studied thermodynamics? That must make you an expert. Why don't you explain to us how you solve a three-dimensional partial differential heat transfer equation that is transient and has conduction, convection, and radiation heat transfer? Make it simple, you can assume the properties are uniform.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2122 by ringo, posted 11-25-2022 10:44 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2135 by ringo, posted 11-25-2022 12:32 PM Kleinman has replied

  
Kleinman
Member
Posts: 1505
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 2130 of 2416 (902566)
11-25-2022 12:10 PM
Reply to: Message 2123 by ringo
11-25-2022 10:52 AM


Re: Kleinman does not know asexual vs sexual
Kleinman:
And your explanation of "B and C evolved from A" and "C evolved from B" shows your degree of mathematical understanding of biological evolution.
ringo:
Well, I'm glad you noticed that I expressed it mathematically. But do you understand it?

You are a math wizard. You have shown you know the ABCs of biological evolution.
Kleinman:
Now I know why "D and U evolved from M and B". So, please go on.
ringo:
You're getting ahead of yourself. Stick with A, B and C for now:
B represents reptiles
C represents birds
A represents a common ancestor

So B evolved from A
and C evolved from A

But you have been saying that C evolved from B. That is a serious misunderstanding of biology. (AND a serious misunderstanding of mathemqtics.)

Do you understand yet that you are wrong about B evolving into C?

I get it now, it is EIEIO, right, old MacDonald?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2123 by ringo, posted 11-25-2022 10:52 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2136 by ringo, posted 11-25-2022 12:34 PM Kleinman has replied
 Message 2139 by Theodoric, posted 11-25-2022 12:50 PM Kleinman has replied

  
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