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Author Topic:   Rebuttal To Creationists - "Since We Can't Directly Observe Evolution..."
ringo
Member
Posts: 20492
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 2101 of 2416 (902493)
11-24-2022 10:59 AM
Reply to: Message 2027 by Kleinman
11-23-2022 9:27 AM


Re: Kleinman Admits He's A Fraud.
Kleinman writes:
Tany still has to learn the laws of thermodynamics and how to do math. He won't do that chasing bugs.
YOU have to learn that Darwin isn't the be-all and end-all of evolution.

Come all of you cowboys all over this land,
I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command:
To hold a six shooter, and never to run
As long as there's bullets in both of your guns.
-- Woody Guthrie

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2027 by Kleinman, posted 11-23-2022 9:27 AM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2106 by Kleinman, posted 11-24-2022 11:26 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 20492
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.2


(3)
Message 2102 of 2416 (902494)
11-24-2022 11:05 AM
Reply to: Message 2028 by Kleinman
11-23-2022 9:28 AM


Re: Kleinman Admits He's A Fraud.
Kleinman writes:
He can call whomever he wants.
Are you physicall incapable of answering a question honestly? You claimed that you "conversed several times with Lenski about his work" and i asked about his reaction. Did he acknowledge verbally that you were right? (It seems pretty clear that he has not acknowledged you in writing.) Or did he say, "Security! Security! There's an escapee from the asylum loose in the building!"?
Kleinman writes:
If he doesn't want to understand his own experiment, that's his prerogative.
So you admit that he still doesn't understand (your drivel about) his own experiment, even after you explained it to him. So, clearly, he does not acknowledge your claims, which is what I've been asking.

Come all of you cowboys all over this land,
I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command:
To hold a six shooter, and never to run
As long as there's bullets in both of your guns.
-- Woody Guthrie

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2028 by Kleinman, posted 11-23-2022 9:28 AM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2107 by Kleinman, posted 11-24-2022 11:33 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 20492
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 2103 of 2416 (902495)
11-24-2022 11:12 AM
Reply to: Message 2061 by Kleinman
11-23-2022 12:12 PM


Re: Resorting to spamming us
Kleinman writes:
dumdum
So you are capable of learning. Congratulations.

Come all of you cowboys all over this land,
I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command:
To hold a six shooter, and never to run
As long as there's bullets in both of your guns.
-- Woody Guthrie

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2061 by Kleinman, posted 11-23-2022 12:12 PM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2108 by Kleinman, posted 11-24-2022 11:35 AM ringo has replied

  
Kleinman
Member
Posts: 1505
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 2104 of 2416 (902496)
11-24-2022 11:20 AM
Reply to: Message 2099 by Tanypteryx
11-24-2022 10:57 AM


Re: Kleinman still soesn't know the difference between asexual and sexual reproduction
Tanypteryx:

Tany posts all zero of his papers chasing bugs. That's quite a list.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2099 by Tanypteryx, posted 11-24-2022 10:57 AM Tanypteryx has not replied

  
Kleinman
Member
Posts: 1505
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 2105 of 2416 (902497)
11-24-2022 11:23 AM
Reply to: Message 2100 by ringo
11-24-2022 10:58 AM


Re: Kleinman does not know asexual vs sexual
Kleinman:
I have the physics and the math, that's all you need to understand the Kishony and Lenski experiments and descent with modification with and without competition.
ringo:
No. You need to understand the biology first.

Oh, that's right, you need to know that reptiles evolve into birds and fish evolve into mammals before you can do the physics and mathematics of the Kishony and Lenski experiments. It's the law of biology. And why should anyone know that biological competition is governed by the first law of thermodynamics and that descent with modification is governed by the second law of thermodynamics?
Kleinman:
Here's where he acknowleged that he doesn't know why competition slows evolution in the paper he edited.
ringo:
I don't see where he mentions you in that.

Why should he mention me that he doesn't know why competition slows adaptation? I do know and the reason is the first law of thermodynamics, not some imaginary law of biology.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2100 by ringo, posted 11-24-2022 10:58 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2109 by ringo, posted 11-24-2022 11:40 AM Kleinman has replied

  
Kleinman
Member
Posts: 1505
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 2106 of 2416 (902498)
11-24-2022 11:26 AM
Reply to: Message 2101 by ringo
11-24-2022 10:59 AM


Re: Kleinman Admits He's A Fraud.
Kleinman:
Tany still has to learn the laws of thermodynamics and how to do math. He won't do that chasing bugs.
ringo:
YOU have to learn that Darwin isn't the be-all and end-all of evolution.

He certainly got biological competition and descent with modification right. I'm sure you could do much better.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2101 by ringo, posted 11-24-2022 10:59 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2110 by ringo, posted 11-24-2022 11:45 AM Kleinman has replied

  
Kleinman
Member
Posts: 1505
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 2107 of 2416 (902500)
11-24-2022 11:33 AM
Reply to: Message 2102 by ringo
11-24-2022 11:05 AM


Re: Kleinman Admits He's A Fraud.
Kleinman:
He can call whomever he wants.
ringo:
Are you physicall incapable of answering a question honestly? You claimed that you "conversed several times with Lenski about his work" and i asked about his reaction. Did he acknowledge verbally that you were right? (It seems pretty clear that he has not acknowledged you in writing.) Or did he say, "Security! Security! There's an escapee from the asylum loose in the building!"?

He hasn't acknowledged one way or the other. But that's the reason, it is the first law of thermodynamics that limits population size. That's the reason.
Kleinman:
If he doesn't want to understand his own experiment, that's his prerogative.
ringo:
So you admit that he still doesn't understand (your drivel about) his own experiment, even after you explained it to him. So, clearly, he does not acknowledge your claims, which is what I've been asking.

There are lots of people that have read this paper.
Fixation and Adaptation in the Lenski E. coli Long Term Evolution Experiment
He doesn't have to acknowledge it to make it true.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2102 by ringo, posted 11-24-2022 11:05 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2111 by ringo, posted 11-24-2022 11:50 AM Kleinman has replied

  
Kleinman
Member
Posts: 1505
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 2108 of 2416 (902502)
11-24-2022 11:35 AM
Reply to: Message 2103 by ringo
11-24-2022 11:12 AM


Re: Resorting to spamming us
Kleinman:
dumdum
ringo:
So you are capable of learning. Congratulations.

You are absolutely right, dumb dumb.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2103 by ringo, posted 11-24-2022 11:12 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2112 by ringo, posted 11-24-2022 11:52 AM Kleinman has replied

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 20492
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 2109 of 2416 (902503)
11-24-2022 11:40 AM
Reply to: Message 2105 by Kleinman
11-24-2022 11:23 AM


Re: Kleinman does not know asexual vs sexual
Kleinman writes:
... Oh, that's right, you need to know that reptiles evolve into birds and fish evolve into mammals...
I have told you at least once that reptiles and birds evolved (past tense) from a common ancestor and that fish and mammals evolved (past tense) from a common ancestor. What do you not understand about that? i will be glad to answer your kindergarten-level questions about evolution.
Kleinman writes:
Why should he mention me that he doesn't know why competition slows adaptation?
We were talking about him acknowledging you. How could he acknowledge you without mentioning you? (That's mathematics, boy! You can't argue with mathematics!)

Come all of you cowboys all over this land,
I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command:
To hold a six shooter, and never to run
As long as there's bullets in both of your guns.
-- Woody Guthrie

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2105 by Kleinman, posted 11-24-2022 11:23 AM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2113 by Kleinman, posted 11-24-2022 12:46 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 20492
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 2110 of 2416 (902504)
11-24-2022 11:45 AM
Reply to: Message 2106 by Kleinman
11-24-2022 11:26 AM


Re: Kleinman Admits He's A Fraud.
Kleinman writes:
ringo writes:
YOU have to learn that Darwin isn't the be-all and end-all of evolution.
He certainly got biological competition and descent with modification right.
It's true that your ideas were already wrong in Darwin's lifetime. But science didn't end in 1882. Instead of flaunting your ignorance, you should move into the twentieth century. And then when you've learned the biology of the twentieth century, we have another twenty-two years worth as icing on the cake.

Come all of you cowboys all over this land,
I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command:
To hold a six shooter, and never to run
As long as there's bullets in both of your guns.
-- Woody Guthrie

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2106 by Kleinman, posted 11-24-2022 11:26 AM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2114 by Kleinman, posted 11-24-2022 12:49 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 20492
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.2


(2)
Message 2111 of 2416 (902505)
11-24-2022 11:50 AM
Reply to: Message 2107 by Kleinman
11-24-2022 11:33 AM


Re: Kleinman Admits He's A Fraud.
Kleinman writes:
He hasn't acknowledged one way or the other.
So, after much pulling of teeth, we're clear on that.
Kleinman writes:
There are lots of people that have read this paper.
There are lots of people who have read The Lord of the Rings too. Not many believed it was true.
Kleinman writes:
He doesn't have to acknowledge it to make it true.
And he doesn't have to deny it to make it false.

Come all of you cowboys all over this land,
I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command:
To hold a six shooter, and never to run
As long as there's bullets in both of your guns.
-- Woody Guthrie

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2107 by Kleinman, posted 11-24-2022 11:33 AM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2115 by Kleinman, posted 11-24-2022 12:51 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 20492
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.2


(2)
Message 2112 of 2416 (902506)
11-24-2022 11:52 AM
Reply to: Message 2108 by Kleinman
11-24-2022 11:35 AM


Re: Resorting to spamming us
Kleinman writes:
ringo writes:
So you are capable of learning. Congratulations.
You are absolutely right, dumb dumb.
And you'll probably learn more by respecting your teachers.

Come all of you cowboys all over this land,
I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command:
To hold a six shooter, and never to run
As long as there's bullets in both of your guns.
-- Woody Guthrie

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2108 by Kleinman, posted 11-24-2022 11:35 AM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2116 by Kleinman, posted 11-24-2022 12:52 PM ringo has replied

  
Kleinman
Member
Posts: 1505
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 2113 of 2416 (902508)
11-24-2022 12:46 PM
Reply to: Message 2109 by ringo
11-24-2022 11:40 AM


Re: Kleinman does not know asexual vs sexual
Kleinman:
... Oh, that's right, you need to know that reptiles evolve into birds and fish evolve into mammals...
ringo:
I have told you at least once that reptiles and birds evolved (past tense) from a common ancestor and that fish and mammals evolved (past tense) from a common ancestor. What do you not understand about that? i will be glad to answer your kindergarten-level questions about evolution.

Since you know so much about biological evolution, could you explain the evolution of drug resistance and why cancer treatments fail? And why does 3 drug combination therapy work for the treatment of HIV? That should be easy because you know that reptiles evolve into birds and fish evolve into mammals.
Kleinman:
Why should he mention me that he doesn't know why competition slows adaptation?
ringo:
We were talking about him acknowledging you. How could he acknowledge you without mentioning you? (That's mathematics, boy! You can't argue with mathematics!)

You should argue the mathematics when it is done like Taq does it. He makes up a system and then chooses variables so the system works but it doesn't model reality. I do the mathematics of real systems such as the Kishony and Lenski experiments and the math explains why it takes a billion replications for each adaptive mutation. I told him why competition slows adaptation, not that competition slows adaptation, it's the first law of thermodynamics.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2109 by ringo, posted 11-24-2022 11:40 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2117 by ringo, posted 11-24-2022 1:29 PM Kleinman has replied

  
Kleinman
Member
Posts: 1505
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 2114 of 2416 (902509)
11-24-2022 12:49 PM
Reply to: Message 2110 by ringo
11-24-2022 11:45 AM


Re: Kleinman Admits He's A Fraud.
ringo:
YOU have to learn that Darwin isn't the be-all and end-all of evolution.
Kleinman:
He certainly got biological competition and descent with modification right.
ringo:
It's true that your ideas were already wrong in Darwin's lifetime. But science didn't end in 1882. Instead of flaunting your ignorance, you should move into the twentieth century. And then when you've learned the biology of the twentieth century, we have another twenty-two years worth as icing on the cake.


Yep, we learned about DNA and got some measurements of mutation rates, and then got the Kishony and Lenski experiments where nobody does the math for either, except me. And you know much better than the experts in probability theory that this math is wrong.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2110 by ringo, posted 11-24-2022 11:45 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2119 by ringo, posted 11-25-2022 10:39 AM Kleinman has replied

  
Kleinman
Member
Posts: 1505
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 2115 of 2416 (902510)
11-24-2022 12:51 PM
Reply to: Message 2111 by ringo
11-24-2022 11:50 AM


Re: Kleinman Admits He's A Fraud.
Kleinman:
He hasn't acknowledged one way or the other.
ringo:
So, after much pulling of teeth, we're clear on that.

Don't be silly, I said that I conversed with him. He hasn't acknowledged it yet.
Kleinman:
There are lots of people that have read this paper.
ringo:
There are lots of people who have read The Lord of the Rings too. Not many believed it was true.

That's why more people are reading these papers all the time. They must read it because they don't believe it.
Kleinman:
He doesn't have to acknowledge it to make it true.
ringo:
And he doesn't have to deny it to make it false.

That's possible but not likely because the model works at describing his experiment.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2111 by ringo, posted 11-24-2022 11:50 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2121 by ringo, posted 11-25-2022 10:43 AM Kleinman has replied

  
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