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Author Topic:   Rebuttal To Creationists - "Since We Can't Directly Observe Evolution..."
nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


(1)
Message 366 of 2926 (899343)
10-12-2022 12:17 PM
Reply to: Message 364 by Kleinman
10-12-2022 11:46 AM


Re: Kleinman does not think mutations can be passed down to descendants
See nwr, Tanypteryx now agrees with Taq that my model is correct for asexual replicators.
Neither Taq nor Tanypteryx agrees with you about that.

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

This message is a reply to:
 Message 364 by Kleinman, posted 10-12-2022 11:46 AM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 368 by Kleinman, posted 10-12-2022 12:37 PM nwr has seen this message but not replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


(1)
Message 476 of 2926 (899648)
10-17-2022 12:15 AM
Reply to: Message 474 by Tanypteryx
10-16-2022 11:54 PM


Re: Kleinman does not think mutations can be passed down to descendants
It does seem like continued argument with you is pointless.
Yes. This is why I have stopped responding to his posts.

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

This message is a reply to:
 Message 474 by Tanypteryx, posted 10-16-2022 11:54 PM Tanypteryx has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 479 by Kleinman, posted 10-17-2022 8:25 AM nwr has replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 500 of 2926 (899702)
10-17-2022 9:19 PM
Reply to: Message 479 by Kleinman
10-17-2022 8:25 AM


Re: Kleinman does not think mutations can be passed down to descendants
Of course, it has nothing to do with the fact that the mathematician with a little knowledge of physics doesn't do the mathematics of biological evolution.
When you talk of "the mathematics of evolution", you are actually talking about the mathematics of your own completely bogus strawman version of evolution. And nobody cares (except creationists).

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

This message is a reply to:
 Message 479 by Kleinman, posted 10-17-2022 8:25 AM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 503 by Kleinman, posted 10-17-2022 9:30 PM nwr has seen this message but not replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


(5)
Message 635 of 2926 (899959)
10-21-2022 12:33 PM
Reply to: Message 629 by Dredge
10-21-2022 11:34 AM


P (natural abiogenesis) < 0,
but
P (supernatural abiogenesis) > 1.
But as I told you before, you can't understand the mathematics of God bcoz you're an atheist. Your natural laws and maths don't apply to the supernatural.
So God is an incompetent moron with respect to mathematics.
This is a great argument for atheism.

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

This message is a reply to:
 Message 629 by Dredge, posted 10-21-2022 11:34 AM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 638 by Dredge, posted 10-21-2022 1:38 PM nwr has replied
 Message 640 by Tanypteryx, posted 10-21-2022 2:09 PM nwr has seen this message but not replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 641 of 2926 (899972)
10-21-2022 2:55 PM
Reply to: Message 638 by Dredge
10-21-2022 1:38 PM


You mock what you can't understand.
However, you are the one who does not understand.

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

This message is a reply to:
 Message 638 by Dredge, posted 10-21-2022 1:38 PM Dredge has not replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


(1)
Message 653 of 2926 (899995)
10-21-2022 11:28 PM
Reply to: Message 650 by AZPaul3
10-21-2022 11:02 PM


Re: Kleinman does not think mutations can be passed down to descendants
You also have a group of detractors over at Google Groups, talk.origins. They know your math is erroneous, your observations bogus, just as we concluded. They didn't like your personality either.
https://groups.google.com/g/talk.origins/c/cUFAn6vukD4
Good find.
He has also tried at discourse.peacefulscience.org and a post at Pandas Thumb was opened to allow him to argue in the comments there.
It seems to be widely recognized that he is a crank. Nobody (except creationists) takes him seriously.

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

This message is a reply to:
 Message 650 by AZPaul3, posted 10-21-2022 11:02 PM AZPaul3 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 655 by Tanypteryx, posted 10-22-2022 12:49 AM nwr has seen this message but not replied
 Message 656 by Theodoric, posted 10-22-2022 12:51 AM nwr has seen this message but not replied
 Message 667 by Kleinman, posted 10-22-2022 9:35 AM nwr has replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


(3)
Message 674 of 2926 (900028)
10-22-2022 10:59 AM
Reply to: Message 667 by Kleinman
10-22-2022 9:35 AM


Re: Kleinman does not think mutations can be passed down to descendants
So, the mathematician that doesn't do the mathematics of biology thinks that Joshua Swamidass's claim that humans and chimps are related using the mathematics of neutral evolution and Joe Felsenstein does his mathematics of inferential phylogenetics by nonrandom sampling of his data is the way to prove universal common descent?
Stop trying to tell me what I think. Your incompetence at mind reading is exceeded only by your incompetence at understanding evolution.

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

This message is a reply to:
 Message 667 by Kleinman, posted 10-22-2022 9:35 AM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 676 by Kleinman, posted 10-22-2022 11:46 AM nwr has seen this message but not replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


(2)
Message 957 of 2926 (900490)
10-27-2022 7:58 PM
Reply to: Message 947 by Kleinman
10-27-2022 4:33 PM


Re: Addition Rule Confusion
If we use your logic that multiple adaptive mutations go to fixation simultaneously, no one should ever die from infectious disease because anyone with an adaptive allele to that disease should have that allele go to fixation.
Wow!
Nobody who actually understands evolution would say anything that foolish.
You do not understand evolution.
Your "mathematics of evolution" is actually the mathematics of your gross misunderstanding of evolution. It is worthless.

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

This message is a reply to:
 Message 947 by Kleinman, posted 10-27-2022 4:33 PM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 959 by Kleinman, posted 10-27-2022 8:06 PM nwr has replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 960 of 2926 (900493)
10-27-2022 8:32 PM
Reply to: Message 959 by Kleinman
10-27-2022 8:06 PM


Re: Addition Rule Confusion
See Taq, even nwr, the mathematician that doesn't do the mathematics of biological evolution understands that multiple adaptive alleles don't go to fixation simultaneously.
You jumped to a wrong conclusion. This further illustrates your failed understanding of evolution.

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

This message is a reply to:
 Message 959 by Kleinman, posted 10-27-2022 8:06 PM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 961 by Kleinman, posted 10-27-2022 8:39 PM nwr has replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 962 of 2926 (900495)
10-27-2022 8:43 PM
Reply to: Message 961 by Kleinman
10-27-2022 8:39 PM


Re: Addition Rule Confusion
The Lenski experiments were not aimed at testing that. I have not studied the Desai experiments.

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

This message is a reply to:
 Message 961 by Kleinman, posted 10-27-2022 8:39 PM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 963 by Kleinman, posted 10-27-2022 8:52 PM nwr has replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


(2)
Message 964 of 2926 (900497)
10-27-2022 11:01 PM
Reply to: Message 963 by Kleinman
10-27-2022 8:52 PM


Re: Addition Rule Confusion
You demonstrate confirmation bias. You see what you want to see.
The Lenski experiment was designed to follow populations that were kept in relatively constant conditions. If it had been intended to study fixation, the experimental design would have been different.

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

This message is a reply to:
 Message 963 by Kleinman, posted 10-27-2022 8:52 PM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 965 by Kleinman, posted 10-28-2022 8:04 AM nwr has replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 966 of 2926 (900505)
10-28-2022 8:26 AM
Reply to: Message 965 by Kleinman
10-28-2022 8:04 AM


Re: Addition Rule Confusion
nwr, fixation is part of the dynamics of Darwinian evolution.
Right. Which is why Lenski was measuring it. But this was not the point of his study, as your other quote shows. If his goal had been studying fixation, I would have expected him to introduce genetic changes and then observe fixation of those changes.

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

This message is a reply to:
 Message 965 by Kleinman, posted 10-28-2022 8:04 AM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 967 by Kleinman, posted 10-28-2022 9:12 AM nwr has replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 968 of 2926 (900508)
10-28-2022 9:26 AM
Reply to: Message 967 by Kleinman
10-28-2022 9:12 AM


Re: Addition Rule Confusion
Lenski would "introduce genetic changes"? It appears you don't understand that mutations occur in the process of DNA replication.
I'll admit to a mistake. My mistake was to ignore the fact that you are a clueless creationist.
A researcher could introduce genetic changes by introducing some bacteria which are genetically different. It does not require directly manipulating the DNA.

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

This message is a reply to:
 Message 967 by Kleinman, posted 10-28-2022 9:12 AM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 969 by Kleinman, posted 10-28-2022 10:01 AM nwr has replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


(1)
Message 974 of 2926 (900521)
10-28-2022 11:26 AM
Reply to: Message 969 by Kleinman
10-28-2022 10:01 AM


Re: Addition Rule Confusion
Lenski tested this and it doesn't make any difference in his experiment.
Observing what happened in his experiment is not the same as specifically testing.
And did you know that drug-resistant variants appeared initially in the LTEE without them ever being exposed to antibiotics?
I would expect that. Why do you find it surprising enough to mention?

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

This message is a reply to:
 Message 969 by Kleinman, posted 10-28-2022 10:01 AM Kleinman has not replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


(1)
Message 1017 of 2926 (900584)
10-29-2022 10:21 AM
Reply to: Message 1016 by Kleinman
10-29-2022 9:18 AM


Re: Addition Rule Confusion
Are you aware of the political battle that is going on in the United States over the secular/state education system that wants to normalize pedophilia?
Total bullshit.
Our leaders in our school system want to groom and sexualize young children.
More bullshit.
You are falling for all of the propaganda and slogans.

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1016 by Kleinman, posted 10-29-2022 9:18 AM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1020 by Kleinman, posted 10-29-2022 10:47 AM nwr has replied

  
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