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Author Topic:   Rebuttal To Creationists - "Since We Can't Directly Observe Evolution..."
ringo
Member (Idle past 440 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(2)
Message 488 of 2932 (899673)
10-17-2022 12:44 PM
Reply to: Message 470 by Dredge
10-16-2022 7:55 PM


Re: Kleinman does not think mutations can be passed down to descendants
Dredge writes:
Abiogenesis: Knowing how stupendously complex any living organism is, how dumb would you have to be...
Who are you to determine how dumb somebody is? Who's dumber than you?
Dredge writes:
... to believe that lifeless mud, by a wild stoke of luck...
Luck doesn't enter into it. Chemistry doesn't happen by chance. There are reasons why we have H2O and not H9O.
Dredge writes:
..., somehow became a living organism?
Living organisms are made of chemicals.
Dredge writes:
The probability of that happening is to impossibly small...
1. Show us your calculations. (You can't, can you, idiot?)
2. Small does not mean zero. If the probability is not zero, it CAN happen.
3. The probabilities that creationist idiots are touting - and that you are stupid enough to believe - are for a living organism to pop into being from a pile of random atoms. That's not how chemistry works. It happens stepwise. Two atoms combine to form a molecule, then two molecules combine to form a larger molecule and so on. It might take thousands of steps to make a complex molecule, adding one piece at a time. (Think of a jigsaw puzzle: you don't put a thousand pieces together in one step.)
Dredge writes:
no one with even an ounce of common sense...
But you don't have an ounce of common sense.
Dredge writes:
... could believe such a profoundly unscientific idea.
It's entirely scientific, whether you understand it or not. (As I've demonstrated above, you don't.)
Dredge writes:
Embarrassing.
You should be embarassed. Even creationists are saying, "Please get off our side."
Dredge writes:
Universal Common Descent: How dumb would you have to be to believe that a human and a lettuce evolved from the same organism?
Not as dumb as you, idiot.

"Oh no, They've gone and named my home St. Petersburg.
What's going on? Where are all the friends I had?
It's all wrong, I'm feeling lost like I just don't belong.
Give me back, give me back my Leningrad."
-- Leningrad Cowboys

This message is a reply to:
 Message 470 by Dredge, posted 10-16-2022 7:55 PM Dredge has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 440 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(3)
Message 489 of 2932 (899674)
10-17-2022 12:49 PM
Reply to: Message 477 by Kleinman
10-17-2022 8:21 AM


Re: Kleinman does not think mutations can be passed down to descendants
Kleinman writes:
Abusing science? That's silly.
It is, but you keep doing it. Your contempt for biologists isn't even veiled.
Kleinman writes:
And I know that my work is ignored by most biologists. It doesn't fit their mathematically irrational belief system.
Luckily, it fits everything else pretty well. Your idea of what is "irrational" has no effect on reality.

"Oh no, They've gone and named my home St. Petersburg.
What's going on? Where are all the friends I had?
It's all wrong, I'm feeling lost like I just don't belong.
Give me back, give me back my Leningrad."
-- Leningrad Cowboys

This message is a reply to:
 Message 477 by Kleinman, posted 10-17-2022 8:21 AM Kleinman has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 440 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(2)
Message 490 of 2932 (899675)
10-17-2022 12:57 PM
Reply to: Message 482 by Dredge
10-17-2022 12:17 PM


Re: Kleinman does not think mutations can be passed down to descendants
Dredge writes:
ringo writes:
And you just admitted to being a YEC.
Er ... no, I didn't.
Er... yes, you did. In Message 439 you said, "I prefer to believe that humans did not evolve but were created as per Genesis 2:7, about 10,000 years ago."
There is no significant difference between young earth and young humans. You are denying the science of dating.

"Oh no, They've gone and named my home St. Petersburg.
What's going on? Where are all the friends I had?
It's all wrong, I'm feeling lost like I just don't belong.
Give me back, give me back my Leningrad."
-- Leningrad Cowboys

This message is a reply to:
 Message 482 by Dredge, posted 10-17-2022 12:17 PM Dredge has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 440 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(2)
Message 491 of 2932 (899676)
10-17-2022 1:00 PM
Reply to: Message 486 by Dredge
10-17-2022 12:30 PM


Re: Kleinman does not think mutations can be passed down to descendants
Dredge writes:
Is an atheist Darwinist...?
Get out of the nineteenth century.
Dredge writes:
Is an atheist Darwinist qualified to define "reality"?
I don't try to define reality but I can see it.
Dredge writes:
I have my doubts.
Your doubts are as worthless as your beliefs.

"Oh no, They've gone and named my home St. Petersburg.
What's going on? Where are all the friends I had?
It's all wrong, I'm feeling lost like I just don't belong.
Give me back, give me back my Leningrad."
-- Leningrad Cowboys

This message is a reply to:
 Message 486 by Dredge, posted 10-17-2022 12:30 PM Dredge has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 440 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 492 of 2932 (899677)
10-17-2022 1:06 PM
Reply to: Message 469 by Kleinman
10-16-2022 5:07 PM


Re: Kleinman does not think mutations can be passed down to descendants
Kleinman writes:
Once again, I'm impressed with your attention to detail.
Wait till you see my persistence.
quote:
Come all of you cowboys all over this land,
I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command:
To hold a six shooter, and never to run
As long as there's bullets in both of your guns.
-- Woody Guthrie

I'm still waiting for you to show how Dredge could have decades of symptoms in 3 years.

"Oh no, They've gone and named my home St. Petersburg.
What's going on? Where are all the friends I had?
It's all wrong, I'm feeling lost like I just don't belong.
Give me back, give me back my Leningrad."
-- Leningrad Cowboys

This message is a reply to:
 Message 469 by Kleinman, posted 10-16-2022 5:07 PM Kleinman has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 440 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 510 of 2932 (899722)
10-18-2022 12:28 PM
Reply to: Message 494 by Kleinman
10-17-2022 2:06 PM


Re: Kleinman does not think mutations can be passed down to descendants
Kleinman writes:
Where's the biologists' explanation of the physics and mathematics of the Kishony, Lenski, and Desai experiments?
I've already answered that. If it was important, they would have done it.
Kleinman writes:
Where did you read in your fossils that it takes a billion replications for each adaptive mutation in the Kishony and Lenski experiments?
It doesn't matter how many replications it takes.
Kleinman writes:
Take a math and physics class and then you might believe me.
I'm three or four credits short of a degree in mathematics.
Kleinman writes:
My papers agree with the numbers given by Kishony and Lenski.
The question is: Do they agree with your conclusions? The answer would appear to ne no.
Kleinman writes:
I'm not the only one that understands. The peer-reviewers of my papers also understand.
Was it a real peer review for a real journal? Or di the review consist of seeing whether your check cleared?
Kleinman writes:
Ask nwr...
If nwr disagree with me, he isn't afraid to say so.
Kleinhman writes:
ringo writes:
YOU show us that they agree with your math.
You are just being silly now.
How is that silly? If you make a claim, YOU back it up.
Kleinman writes:
It isn't my choice whether they comment on my work or not.
It certainly isn't MY responsibility to find out whether or not they agree with you. You're the one who mentions them hundreds of times. Basic honesty would require you to find out what they actually think.
Kleinman writes:
Neither Kishony nor Lenski have explained this.
You should be asking THEM why they haven't explained it to your satisfaction instead of trying to flog your nonsense here.
Kleinman writes:
Try dealing with the math and physics (if you can).
When I want to "deal with" science, I go to the scientists, not some Internet crank.
Kleinman writes:
But you can't tell whether birds are related to mammals or any other vertebrate by gross anatomy.
Biologists can and they did. Why do you think the nested hierarchy was established before anything was known about DNA? If it was just a bunch of wild guesses, why does DNA confirm it instead of refuting it?
Kleinman writes:
I'm criticizing biologists' failure ...
I know. That's where you fail. No biologist on earth understands but you do. Do you get your arrogance wholesale?
Kleinman writes:
ringo writes:
I doubt that many physicians share your contempt for biologists.
Biologists' explanation of the evolution of antimicrobial drug resistance and why cancer treatments fail sucks.
I doubt that many physicians share your opinion.
Kleinman writes:
ringo, you argue about the stupidist things.
I argue with the stupidest people and they bring up the stupidest things. I try to avoid arguing with people who are smarter than me.
Kleinman writes:
The Lenski experiment has been going on for decades, the Kishony experiment published in 2016, the Desai paper was just published at the beginning of 2021. Have you even tried to read the Desai paper?
Blah blah blah.
What I asked was, "So is it Kishony best, Lenski second-best and Desai third-best? Then give us your fourth-best and fifth-best."
Answer that.
Kleinman writes:
I forgot to mention that your idea of science also doesn't include experimentation.
Sure it does. But unlike you, I don't call the experimenters incompetent.
Kleinman writes:
I'm not the one taking something equivalent to phrenology and thinking that I can explain the physics and mathematics of biology.
You're trying to make biology the equivalent of phrenology by claiming that biologists don't know what they're doing.
Kleinman writes:
ringo writes:
Fool.
We'll take that as an admission that you can't.
A fool would.
And the "we" here is not you. I got three cheers for that post, so "we" seem to agree with ME.
Kleinman writes:
Biologists haven't explained the Kishony and Lenski biological evolutionary experiments.
They haven't explained it to your satisfaction because your satisfaction doesn't matter.
Kleinman writes:
ringo writes:
Even if you could destroy evolution, creationism isn't even NEAR to second place.
Tell that to the people with antimicrobial-resistant infections and failed cancer treatments.
I'll tell them to go with biology, not creationist quackery.

"Oh no, They've gone and named my home St. Petersburg.
What's going on? Where are all the friends I had?
It's all wrong, I'm feeling lost like I just don't belong.
Give me back, give me back my Leningrad."
-- Leningrad Cowboys

This message is a reply to:
 Message 494 by Kleinman, posted 10-17-2022 2:06 PM Kleinman has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 440 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 511 of 2932 (899723)
10-18-2022 12:31 PM
Reply to: Message 495 by Kleinman
10-17-2022 2:11 PM


Re: Kleinman does not think mutations can be passed down to descendants
Kleinman writes:
Shaking in my boots, that's hilarious!
Go ahead and whistle in the dark.
Then start a topic about abiogenesis, like I suggested. Let's see what Kishony, Lenski and Desai have to say about that.

"Oh no, They've gone and named my home St. Petersburg.
What's going on? Where are all the friends I had?
It's all wrong, I'm feeling lost like I just don't belong.
Give me back, give me back my Leningrad."
-- Leningrad Cowboys

This message is a reply to:
 Message 495 by Kleinman, posted 10-17-2022 2:11 PM Kleinman has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 440 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(2)
Message 512 of 2932 (899724)
10-18-2022 12:38 PM
Reply to: Message 496 by Kleinman
10-17-2022 2:22 PM


Re: Kleinman does not think mutations can be passed down to descendants
Kleinman writes:
ringo is just filling space at this time.
Kishony, Lenski and Desai. (And if that's too subtle for you, Kishony, Lenski and Desai.)
Kleinman writes:
If there is going to be any chance of an interesting discussion on this topic, it might come from Tanypteryx.
I agree, but he seems to be bored with your nonsense.
(And he's one of my biggest fans.)
Kleinman writes:
... you might find this video interesting on debating someone that is delusional.
I mostly debate people who are delusional.

"Oh no, They've gone and named my home St. Petersburg.
What's going on? Where are all the friends I had?
It's all wrong, I'm feeling lost like I just don't belong.
Give me back, give me back my Leningrad."
-- Leningrad Cowboys

This message is a reply to:
 Message 496 by Kleinman, posted 10-17-2022 2:22 PM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 516 by Kleinman, posted 10-18-2022 1:07 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 440 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 513 of 2932 (899725)
10-18-2022 12:44 PM
Reply to: Message 498 by Dredge
10-17-2022 8:08 PM


Re: Kleinman does not think mutations can be passed down to descendants
Dredge writes:
from the Darwinist Space Cadet Manual, 13th edition, 2022, p.1
Get out of the nineteenth century.
quoting something he doesn't understand, Dredge writes:
In 2013 Denis Noble said, “all the central assumptions of the Modern Synthesis (often also called Neo-Darwinism) have been disproved. Moreover, they have been disproved in ways that raise the tantalizing prospect of a totally new synthesis” (Noble, 2013).
Do you know what "synthesis" means? Hint: it doesn't mean "down the drain".
And it certainly doesn't mean "replaced by creationism".

"Oh no, They've gone and named my home St. Petersburg.
What's going on? Where are all the friends I had?
It's all wrong, I'm feeling lost like I just don't belong.
Give me back, give me back my Leningrad."
-- Leningrad Cowboys

This message is a reply to:
 Message 498 by Dredge, posted 10-17-2022 8:08 PM Dredge has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 440 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 514 of 2932 (899726)
10-18-2022 12:47 PM
Reply to: Message 499 by Dredge
10-17-2022 9:16 PM


Re: Kleinman does not think mutations can be passed down to descendants
the idiot, Dredge writes:
Abiogenesis by natural means represents an obvious scientific impossibility.
Only to somebody who is totally ignorant of chemistry.
But the topic here is Kleinman's ignorance of biology. If you want to make stupid statements about abiogenesis, start a topic about abiogenesis.

"Oh no, They've gone and named my home St. Petersburg.
What's going on? Where are all the friends I had?
It's all wrong, I'm feeling lost like I just don't belong.
Give me back, give me back my Leningrad."
-- Leningrad Cowboys

This message is a reply to:
 Message 499 by Dredge, posted 10-17-2022 9:16 PM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 524 by Dredge, posted 10-18-2022 11:46 PM ringo has replied
 Message 525 by Dredge, posted 10-18-2022 11:49 PM ringo has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 440 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 515 of 2932 (899727)
10-18-2022 12:49 PM
Reply to: Message 502 by Dredge
10-17-2022 9:29 PM


Re: Kleinman does not think mutations can be passed down to descendants
Dredge writes:
"Claiming to be wise, they became fools..."
But you admit to being a fool.
Which is it? Are you an idiot or a liar? Or both?

"Oh no, They've gone and named my home St. Petersburg.
What's going on? Where are all the friends I had?
It's all wrong, I'm feeling lost like I just don't belong.
Give me back, give me back my Leningrad."
-- Leningrad Cowboys

This message is a reply to:
 Message 502 by Dredge, posted 10-17-2022 9:29 PM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 526 by Dredge, posted 10-19-2022 12:16 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 440 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 517 of 2932 (899731)
10-18-2022 1:52 PM
Reply to: Message 516 by Kleinman
10-18-2022 1:07 PM


Re: Kleinman does not think mutations can be passed down to descendants
Kleinman writes:
But if Tany quits this discussion, it will be for the same reason that Taq quit and that wasn't boredom.
Well, your wishful thinking won't get rid of me. You can run but you can't hide.
Phat writes:
And Tany must like the way the C- team plays if he is a fan of yours.
Nice sports analogy. I may not be in the major leagues but youre playing tee-ball.

"Oh no, They've gone and named my home St. Petersburg.
What's going on? Where are all the friends I had?
It's all wrong, I'm feeling lost like I just don't belong.
Give me back, give me back my Leningrad."
-- Leningrad Cowboys

This message is a reply to:
 Message 516 by Kleinman, posted 10-18-2022 1:07 PM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 518 by Kleinman, posted 10-18-2022 2:18 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 440 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 521 of 2932 (899741)
10-18-2022 9:50 PM
Reply to: Message 518 by Kleinman
10-18-2022 2:18 PM


Re: Kleinman does not think mutations can be passed down to descendants
Kleinman writes:
I'm just waiting for you to say something interesting.
While you're waiting, you could answer some of your unanswered posts. I count about ten different topics that you've missed answering.

"Oh no, They've gone and named my home St. Petersburg.
What's going on? Where are all the friends I had?
It's all wrong, I'm feeling lost like I just don't belong.
Give me back, give me back my Leningrad."
-- Leningrad Cowboys

This message is a reply to:
 Message 518 by Kleinman, posted 10-18-2022 2:18 PM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 522 by Kleinman, posted 10-18-2022 10:33 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 440 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 542 of 2932 (899776)
10-19-2022 11:39 AM
Reply to: Message 522 by Kleinman
10-18-2022 10:33 PM


Re: Kleinman does not think mutations can be passed down to descendants
Kleinman writes:
Jame Tour does a much better job describing why abiogenesis is not possible.
What I said was: "While you're waiting, you could answer some of your unanswered posts. I count about ten different topics that you've missed answering."
This topic is not about abiogenesis. Start an appropriate topic.
Kleinman writes:
Jame Tour does a much better job describing why abiogenesis is not possible.
If you're even worse than some goober who thinks abiogenesis is "impossible". I can see why you're avoiding the subject.

"Oh no, They've gone and named my home St. Petersburg.
What's going on? Where are all the friends I had?
It's all wrong, I'm feeling lost like I just don't belong.
Give me back, give me back my Leningrad."
-- Leningrad Cowboys

This message is a reply to:
 Message 522 by Kleinman, posted 10-18-2022 10:33 PM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 549 by Kleinman, posted 10-19-2022 12:14 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 440 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 543 of 2932 (899777)
10-19-2022 11:45 AM
Reply to: Message 524 by Dredge
10-18-2022 11:46 PM


Re: Kleinman does not think mutations can be passed down to descendants
Dredge writes:
When confronted by the scientific impossibility of abiogenesis....
You know nothing about chemistry. Abiogenesis is practically inevitable.
Dredge writes:
... atheists panick...
It has nothing to do with atheism. It's about chemistry.
And there's no "panic" about it. I will gladly give you a kindergarten-level lesson in chemistry - in an appropriate topic. Try to be wrong (and stupid) about one thing at a time.

"Oh no, They've gone and named my home St. Petersburg.
What's going on? Where are all the friends I had?
It's all wrong, I'm feeling lost like I just don't belong.
Give me back, give me back my Leningrad."
-- Leningrad Cowboys

This message is a reply to:
 Message 524 by Dredge, posted 10-18-2022 11:46 PM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 554 by Dredge, posted 10-19-2022 2:09 PM ringo has replied
 Message 556 by Dredge, posted 10-19-2022 2:33 PM ringo has replied

  
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