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Topic: The origin of everything
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dwise1
Member Posts: 6031 Joined: 05-02-2006 Member Rating: 5.8
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without any comprehension
Trump = Vogon??? When it comes to bureaucracy, not even close. Trump is as completely and utterly incompetent as anyone could possibly be. Trump would dismiss the Deep State without a thought, without any hint of the ability to comprehend it, whereas the Vogons are the Deep State. But when it comes to poetry ... . Trump's poetry could very well be far worse than Vogon poetry, so he might be able give the Vogons a run for their money there. Not that either Vogons or Trump would ever do any kind of running. I might be willing to pay to be present for the moment when, while Trump is reading his latest poem out loud, his own major intestine, in a desperate attempt to save life and civilization, leaps straight up through his neck and throttles his brain. Edited by dwise1, : "without any hint of the ability to comprehend it"
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 59 by The Real God, posted 04-18-2022 2:49 AM | | The Real God has not replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18523 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.7
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Message 62 of 106 (898519)
09-25-2022 3:24 PM
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Reply to: Message 35 by ringo
04-04-2022 11:43 AM
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Re: A Few Questions for candle2
candle2 writes: the earth; sun; moon; and, the entirety of the universe was already in existence before the creation week in Genesis.
ringo writes: That's one way to try to reconcile the errors in Genesis 1.
candle2 writes: Tohuw means to lie waste. Look up the Word waste in the dictionary. By no stretch of the imagination can waste be indicative of something just created.
 that's called the old switcheroo - look it up in Strong and then pick one word from strong to look up in the dictionary. No need to do that. Here's the whole citation from Strong:quote:
8414 tohuw to'-hoo from an unused root meaning to lie waste; a desolation (of surface), i.e. desert; figuratively, a worthless thing; adverbially, in vain:--confusion, empty place, without form, nothing, (thing of) nought, vain, vanity, waste, wilderness.
A desert could certainly be something just created.
candle2 writes: The same goes for void-bohuw, # 922 Strong's. Bohuw means "an undistinguishable ruin."
Again, let's look at what Strong actually says:
quote:
922 bohuw bo'-hoo from an unused root (meaning to be empty); a vacuity, i.e. (superficially) an undistinguishable ruin:--emptiness, void.
Vacuity, emptyness.
candle2 writes: Nothing is created as an undistinguishable ruin.
But things are often created empty.
candle2 writes: This requires a destructive process, not a creative one.
Wrong. See above. Have you even read Strong or did you just quote second-hand from some creationist source?
candle2 writes: There is more to support that Genesis is describing a renewal and not an original creation, but no more should be needed.
Neither Psalms nor Isaiah nor Job supports your perversion of Genesis. Of course the earth is constantly being renewed. That has nothing to do with Genesis.
candle2 writes: Romans 5:12 states that death exists only because of the sins of Adam.
Romans is wrong. If there was no death before Adam and Eve, how could God threaten them with death?
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 35 by ringo, posted 04-04-2022 11:43 AM | | ringo has seen this message but not replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 576 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 63 of 106 (898525)
09-25-2022 3:42 PM
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Now drag candle2 here.
"Oh no, They've gone and named my home St. Petersburg.
What's going on? Where are all the friends I had?
It's all wrong, I'm feeling lost like I just don't belong.
Give me back, give me back my Leningrad."
-- Leningrad Cowboys
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 64 by Phat, posted 09-27-2022 9:41 AM | | ringo has replied | | | Message 66 by Phat, posted 09-27-2022 10:05 AM | | ringo has replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18523 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.7
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Message 64 of 106 (898610)
09-27-2022 9:41 AM
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Reply to: Message 63 by ringo
09-25-2022 3:42 PM
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Preconceived Notions
ringo, replying to candle2 writes: I don't need "my own interpretation". YOU do because you have a preconceived notion of what you want it to say. I just go by what it DOES say. Why can't people choose to interpret scripture? If you use the approach that no Pastors are needed, any yahoo can take what is said and not listen to God at all but only the Cleverbot in their own mind. Candle may be burning at both ends, but he wants to reconcile his scientific curiosity with what his Pastor is telling him. I can feel his pain. I also have preconceived notions of what I think scriptures and Bible snippets should mean. You know I will forever disagree with the premise that "The God" of Genesis lied and that pesky serpent told us the truth. That's the first in my list of gripes.
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 63 by ringo, posted 09-25-2022 3:42 PM | | ringo has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 67 by ringo, posted 09-27-2022 11:43 AM | | Phat has replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18523 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.7
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Message 65 of 106 (898612)
09-27-2022 9:55 AM
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Lighting A Candle?
Candle2 writes: I want to finish replying to your question concerning the sun, but I will have to post this in a short while. I Need to look away from the screen for a short spell. I know the feeling. The screen is almost as bad as sunlight. I can dim mine to an extent. Its my brain that needs the rest. 
Candle2 writes: The reason that Satan is the present God of this world is because God had appointed him this position before humans were ever created. In my view, Satan can only try and sway humans into doing crazy things, but satan can also be described as greed, irresponsibility, lust, jealousy, and the list goes on and on. None of us have to deal with a devil in a red suit with a pitchfork. Percy warns me about high blood sugars because they make me irrational. Is the devil in the details? Or am I simply being irresponsible?
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).
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Phat
Member Posts: 18523 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.7
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Message 66 of 106 (898613)
09-27-2022 10:05 AM
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Reply to: Message 63 by ringo
09-25-2022 3:42 PM
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Sez Who?
ringo writes: candle2 writes: Also Ringo, tell us what you think happened during creation week.
The story is right there in Genesis 1. But it's just a story. It didn't happen like that.
candle2 writes: Even if you are an atheist, you must have an opinion of what you think Moses is stating.
Moses has nothing to do with Genesis1.
candle2 writes: Without having your own interpretation of what happened on each particular day, you carry little credibility when debating others.
I don't need "my own interpretation". YOU do because you have a preconceived notion of what you want it to say. I just go by what it DOES say. And I'll stack my credibility against yours any day of the week. Moses has nothing to do with Genesis1. You already have both God (He lied) and Paul the Apostle on your WRONG list. I'm waiting to see how many people make the list before our conversations are over.
Wiki writes: Tradition credits Moses as the author of Genesis, as well as the books of Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and most of Deuteronomy; however, modern scholars, especially from the 19th century onward, place the books' authorship in the 6th and 5th centuries BC, hundreds of years after Moses is supposed to have lived. I question these modern scholars. They spend far too much time on their smartphone.
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 63 by ringo, posted 09-25-2022 3:42 PM | | ringo has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 68 by ringo, posted 09-27-2022 11:50 AM | | Phat has seen this message but not replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 576 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 67 of 106 (898627)
09-27-2022 11:43 AM
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Reply to: Message 64 by Phat
09-27-2022 9:41 AM
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Re: Preconceived Notions
Phat writes: Why can't people choose to interpret scripture?
If you're "interpreting" it the way you and candle2 do - i.e. making it up out of thin air - why even pretend to be using it as your source?
Phat writes: If you use the approach that no Pastors are needed, any yahoo can take what is said and not listen to God at all....
Yes. Do that, please. (The voices in your head are not God.) When I was young, the churches we went to used to complain that the Catholics didn't want their congregants to read the Bible but rather to let the clergy "interpret" it for them. Maybe you should be a Catholic.
Phat writes: Candle may be burning at both ends, but he wants to reconcile his scientific curiosity with what his Pastor is telling him.
Candle2 has no scientific curiosity. He has contempt for science, or he wouldn't be trying to twist Genesis to fit science.
Phat writes: I can feel his pain.
But not enough to do anything about it.
Phat writes: You know I will forever disagree with the premise that "The God" of Genesis lied and that pesky serpent told us the truth. That's the first in my list of gripes.
You can gripe until the cows come home. Your griping won't change the reality of what the Bible says.
"Oh no, They've gone and named my home St. Petersburg.
What's going on? Where are all the friends I had?
It's all wrong, I'm feeling lost like I just don't belong.
Give me back, give me back my Leningrad."
-- Leningrad Cowboys
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 64 by Phat, posted 09-27-2022 9:41 AM | | Phat has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 71 by Phat, posted 09-27-2022 2:52 PM | | ringo has replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 576 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 68 of 106 (898629)
09-27-2022 11:50 AM
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Reply to: Message 66 by Phat
09-27-2022 10:05 AM
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Re: Sez Who?
Phat writes: You already have both God (He lied) and Paul the Apostle on your WRONG list. I'm waiting to see how many people make the list before our conversations are over.
Are you under the impression that there are perfect humans walking around? EVEYBODY is wrong about something sometime. So yes, my WRONG list is the phone book.
Phat writes: I question these modern scholars. They spend far too much time on their smartphone.
Did you read your own quote at all?
quote:
... modern scholars, especially from the 19th century onward...
No smartphones in the 19th century. YOU are the one who spends far too much time on YouTube looking for easy answers.
"Oh no, They've gone and named my home St. Petersburg.
What's going on? Where are all the friends I had?
It's all wrong, I'm feeling lost like I just don't belong.
Give me back, give me back my Leningrad."
-- Leningrad Cowboys
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 66 by Phat, posted 09-27-2022 10:05 AM | | Phat has seen this message but not replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 69 by candle2, posted 09-27-2022 1:47 PM | | ringo has replied |
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candle2
Member Posts: 892 Joined: 12-31-2018
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Message 69 of 106 (898649)
09-27-2022 1:47 PM
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Reply to: Message 68 by ringo
09-27-2022 11:50 AM
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Re: Sez Who?
I laid out what I believe that Genesis is describing in the creation week, and I believe my position. You cannot disprove by science, nor by any other means, that my understanding of creation week did not happen in the way that I described. It is a rather simple thing to discount someone who says that the sun was created on both the first and fourth days of creation. But there is no way to prove that the Genesis account was not a renewal. I wonder if you have enough faith in evolution to tell us how earth was created. How life came from non-life. I was limited to the Bible for my explanation. You, however, are free to rely on anything and anyone that you see fit. You like to attack the beliefs of others. I want to see you defend yours, assuming that you have the courage to even post them.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 68 by ringo, posted 09-27-2022 11:50 AM | | ringo has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 70 by Phat, posted 09-27-2022 2:14 PM | | candle2 has not replied | | | Message 72 by AZPaul3, posted 09-27-2022 3:14 PM | | candle2 has replied | | | Message 80 by ringo, posted 09-27-2022 10:17 PM | | candle2 has replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18523 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.7
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Message 70 of 106 (898650)
09-27-2022 2:14 PM
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Reply to: Message 69 by candle2
09-27-2022 1:47 PM
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Challenging The Status Quo
candle2, to ringo writes: You like to attack the beliefs of others. ringo is not so much trying to burst our faith "bubble" of certainty as much as he is trying to challenge it. No human can tell another human what to believe. They can only challenge uncritical thought and encourage us to "throw God away" as jar used to do to me. Of course I never did (as if i even could )
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 69 by candle2, posted 09-27-2022 1:47 PM | | candle2 has not replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18523 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.7
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Message 71 of 106 (898651)
09-27-2022 2:52 PM
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Reply to: Message 67 by ringo
09-27-2022 11:43 AM
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Re: Preconceived Notions
ringo writes: If you're "interpreting" it the way you and candle2 do - i.e. making it up out of thin air - why even pretend to be using it as your source?
If you are reading a story, you as an adult first label it fictional or non-fictional. You don't listen to some bozo who writes books and frequents Internet Infidels such as Shermer, Carrier, or Harris. You may argue that the believer's counterparts are more gooberish than the humanist/atheist infidels, but my jury is still out and will remain out until I call them back into the courtroom. (after they have made a decision, of course,  ) Anyway, Canuckistanian Contrarian that you are, must we all reach the same conclusions that you did? What if it is you who are wrong and Jesus shows up at your door someday asking for spare change?  Edited by Phat, : fixed broken link
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 67 by ringo, posted 09-27-2022 11:43 AM | | ringo has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 81 by ringo, posted 09-27-2022 10:26 PM | | Phat has seen this message but not replied |
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AZPaul3
Member Posts: 8630 From: Phoenix Joined: 11-06-2006 Member Rating: 5.3
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Message 72 of 106 (898652)
09-27-2022 3:14 PM
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Reply to: Message 69 by candle2
09-27-2022 1:47 PM
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Re: Sez Who?
You cannot disprove by science, nor by any other means,
that my understanding of creation week did not happen
in the way that I described. Don't have to disprove. You have no reason, no evidence to suppose such a fantasy. Science, therefore, ignores your fantasy. It is nothing. It means nothing.
I wonder if you have enough faith in evolution to tell us
how earth was created. How life came from non-life. This has nothing to do with evolution. Evolution does not create planets or create life. You're showing your stupid here.
Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 69 by candle2, posted 09-27-2022 1:47 PM | | candle2 has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 73 by candle2, posted 09-27-2022 3:55 PM | | AZPaul3 has replied | | | Message 74 by Phat, posted 09-27-2022 3:58 PM | | AZPaul3 has not replied |
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candle2
Member Posts: 892 Joined: 12-31-2018
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Message 73 of 106 (898660)
09-27-2022 3:55 PM
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Reply to: Message 72 by AZPaul3
09-27-2022 3:14 PM
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Re: Sez Who?
AZPaul you cannot disprove my understanding of creation week. Nor can you prove that it is just a fantasy. You are free to believe that if you choose to do so, but it will amount to nothing more than an opinion. It means nothing. There are many people who believe in cosmic, planetary, etc... evolution. Those who believe in evolution must explain the entire continuum from beginning until the very present age. Actually, I couldn't care less where one begins on the continuum; they still have their work cut out for them. I fully realize the situation that evolutionists and atheists are in. I just sit back and smile.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 72 by AZPaul3, posted 09-27-2022 3:14 PM | | AZPaul3 has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 75 by Phat, posted 09-27-2022 4:00 PM | | candle2 has replied | | | Message 76 by nwr, posted 09-27-2022 4:27 PM | | candle2 has not replied | | | Message 78 by AZPaul3, posted 09-27-2022 5:50 PM | | candle2 has not replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18523 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.7
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Message 74 of 106 (898661)
09-27-2022 3:58 PM
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Reply to: Message 72 by AZPaul3
09-27-2022 3:14 PM
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Re: Sez Who?
AZ writes: Evolution does not create planets or create life. You're showing your stupid here.
I must confess that i'm puzzled too. If not God, nor evolution, what process or method creates life? The universe is not alive, so "it" can't take credit.
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 72 by AZPaul3, posted 09-27-2022 3:14 PM | | AZPaul3 has not replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 77 by dwise1, posted 09-27-2022 5:39 PM | | Phat has seen this message but not replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18523 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.7
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Message 75 of 106 (898662)
09-27-2022 4:00 PM
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Reply to: Message 73 by candle2
09-27-2022 3:55 PM
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Re: Sez Who?
Are ALL atheists evolutionists, in your opinion? And just so we all can agree on terms, what is an evolutionist? And what is a creationist?
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 73 by candle2, posted 09-27-2022 3:55 PM | | candle2 has replied |
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