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Author Topic:   The War in Europe
Percy
Member
Posts: 23330
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 6.1


(1)
Message 1351 of 1373 (922542)
03-19-2025 1:07 PM


The Trump/Putin Negotiations
There's a lot to unpack here. Trump and Putin are negotiating the future of Ukraine, and neither the Ukrainians nor the Europeans have a seat at the table, which by itself makes no sense.
I'm having trouble tracking down some of the news articles I've read over the past couple days or I'd quote from them, but Trump's lack of negotiation skills and vulnerability to flattery are causing him to make concession after concession while getting nothing in return. A cease fire was agreed to yesterday that was already violated overnight.
During the 2024 presidential campaign Trump frequently claimed that he would end the Ukraine war in 24 hours. And a year earlier he said this in an interview with Sean Hannity:
Trump:
If it’s not solved, I will have it solved in 24 hours with Zelensky and with Putin.
...
And there’s a very easy negotiation to take place. But I don’t want to tell you what it is because then I can’t use that negotiation; it’ll never work. But it’s a very easy negotiation to take place. I will have it solved within one day, a peace between them. Now that’s a year and a half. That’s a long time. I can’t imagine something not happening,” Trump added at the time. “The key is the war has to stop now because Ukraine is being obliterated.
Current news reports are that the negotiations could stretch on for months. Are Trump supporters at least beginning to recognize that Trump was talking through his hat about how easily he would end the Ukraine war?
And if all Trump does to end the war is hand Ukraine over to Russia, do Trump supporters realize that Biden could just as easily have done the same? Of course, Biden would never have done that since he recognized the importance of Ukraine to western security.
--Percy

Replies to this message:
 Message 1352 by Phat, posted 03-19-2025 5:32 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18761
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 1352 of 1373 (922544)
03-19-2025 5:32 PM
Reply to: Message 1351 by Percy
03-19-2025 1:07 PM


Re: The Trump/Putin Negotiations
Are Trump supporters at least beginning to recognize that Trump was talking through his hat about how easily he would end the Ukraine war?
There is nothing new about Trump. He has used hyperbole for years. The point that most of them accept is that he is at least trying to end the war.
And if all Trump does to end the war is hand Ukraine over to Russia, do Trump supporters realize that Biden could just as easily have done the same? Of course, Biden would never have done that since he recognized the importance of Ukraine to Western security.
Biden also never cared about how much taxpayer money he spent, even if it drove the U.S. deeper into debt. Democratic and Republican administrations have both amassed debt, kicking the proverbial can farther down the road. Trump has nothing to lose by fighting government waste and likely has something to gain...dismantling the deep state spending machine that had an open checkbook for the rest of the world.

When both religious and non-religious people reach the same conclusions then you know religion isn't the reason.--Percy
God alone is God *but* God is not alone~Ellis Potter
We see Monsters where Science shows us Windmills.~Phat, remixed
Critics would of course say that "God" is a product of human imagination...but then again God may well declare that all of creation is a product of His imagination! It is all in the perspective of the observer.~Phat

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1351 by Percy, posted 03-19-2025 1:07 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1353 by Taq, posted 03-19-2025 5:38 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 1354 by Tangle, posted 03-19-2025 6:00 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 1355 by DrJones*, posted 03-19-2025 8:41 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 1356 by xongsmith, posted 03-20-2025 1:13 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10448
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 6.4


Message 1353 of 1373 (922545)
03-19-2025 5:38 PM
Reply to: Message 1352 by Phat
03-19-2025 5:32 PM


Re: The Trump/Putin Negotiations
Phat writes:
There is nothing new about Trump. He has used hyperbole for years. The point that most of them accept is that he is at least trying to end the war.
Trump is collaborating with Putin to get what Putin wants which is a big chunk of another country's territory. Why isn't Trump pressuring Putin to get out of Ukraine? That would end the war in a heartbeat.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1352 by Phat, posted 03-19-2025 5:32 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9695
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 6.1


Message 1354 of 1373 (922546)
03-19-2025 6:00 PM
Reply to: Message 1352 by Phat
03-19-2025 5:32 PM


Re: The Trump/Putin Negotiations
Trump has no real interest in ending the war, his interest is in aligning himself with Russia and abandoning Europe.
It was nice knowing you.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1352 by Phat, posted 03-19-2025 5:32 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
DrJones*
Member
Posts: 2383
From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 08-19-2004
Member Rating: 6.7


(1)
Message 1355 of 1373 (922550)
03-19-2025 8:41 PM
Reply to: Message 1352 by Phat
03-19-2025 5:32 PM


Re: The Trump/Putin Negotiations
he is at least trying to end the war.
by surrendering to putin.

It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds
soon I discovered that this rock thing was true
Jerry Lee Lewis was the devil
Jesus was an architect previous to his career as a prophet
All of a sudden i found myself in love with the world
And so there was only one thing I could do
Was ding a ding dang my dang along ling long - Jesus Built my Hotrod Ministry
Live every week like it's Shark Week! - Tracey Jordan
Just a monkey in a long line of kings. - Matthew Good
If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist! - Get Your War On
*not an actual doctor

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1352 by Phat, posted 03-19-2025 5:32 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
xongsmith
Member
Posts: 2665
From: massachusetts US
Joined: 01-01-2009
Member Rating: 5.7


Message 1356 of 1373 (922552)
03-20-2025 1:13 AM
Reply to: Message 1352 by Phat
03-19-2025 5:32 PM


Re: The Trump/Putin Negotiations
Phat writes
The point that most of them accept is that he is at least trying to end the war.
guffaw guffaw guffaw!!! how gullible!!!

"I'm the Grim Reaper now, Mitch. Step aside."
Death to #TzarVladimirtheCondemned!
"Enjoy every sandwich!"-Warren Zevon on his last DaveLetterman show

- xongsmith, 5.7dawkins scale


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1352 by Phat, posted 03-19-2025 5:32 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 23330
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 6.1


(4)
Message 1357 of 1373 (922649)
03-26-2025 7:18 AM


Early in March French senator Claude Malhuret, also a former head of Doctors Without Borders, gave a speech that says what everyone is thinking. To paraphrase would only water down its powerful words, so here are a few key excerpts:
Malhuret:
Europe is at a crucial juncture of its history. The American shield is slipping away, Ukraine risks being abandoned, and Russia is being strengthened. Washington has become the court of Nero: an incendiary emperor, submissive courtiers, and a buffoon on ketamine tasked with purging the civil service.
This is a tragedy for the free world, but it's first and foremost a tragedy for the United States. Trump's message is that being his ally serves no purpose because he will not defend you, he will impose more tariffs on you than on his enemies, and he will threaten to seize your territories while supporting the dictators who invade you.
The king of the deal is showing that the art of the deal is lying prostrate. He thinks he will intimidate China by capitulating to Russian President Vladimir Putin, but China's President Xi Jinping, faced with such wreckage, is undoubtedly accelerating his plans to invade Taiwan.
Never in history has a president of the United States surrendered to the enemy. Never has one supported an aggressor against an ally, issued so many illegal decrees, and sacked so many military leaders in one go.
This is not a drift to illiberalism; this is the beginning of the seizure of democracy. Let us remember that it only took one month, three weeks, and two days [in 1933 for Hitler] to bring down the [German] Weimar Republic.
I have confidence in the solidity of American democracy, and the country is already protesting. But in one month, Trump has done more harm to America than in the four years of his last presidency. We were at war with a dictator [Putin]; now we are fighting against a dictator supported by a traitor [Trump].
Above all: make no mistake. The defeat of Ukraine would be the defeat of Europe … Putin's goal is to return to the Yalta Agreement, where half the continent was ceded to Stalin.
What Putin wants is the end of the world order the United States and its allies established 80 years ago, in which the first principle was the prohibition of acquiring territory by force.
The Trumpian vision coincides with Putin's: a return to spheres of influence, where great powers dictate the fate of small nations.
Greenland, Panama, and Canada are mine. Ukraine, the Baltics, and Eastern Europe are yours. Taiwan and the South China Sea are his.
At the Mar-a-Lago dinner parties of golf-playing oligarchs, this is called 'diplomatic realism.'
--Percy

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 6276
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.8


Message 1358 of 1373 (922683)
03-29-2025 8:21 PM
Reply to: Message 1334 by dwise1
03-14-2025 11:53 AM


Re: US War Plan Red (Canada), 1930
Prompted by talk of invading Canada, it's been planned before.
dwise1 writes in Message 1334:
There's also "Case Red", which I read about in GAMING THE INTERWAR: HOW NAVAL WAR COLLEGE WARGAMES TILTED THE PLAYING FIELD FOR THE U.S. NAVY DURING WORLD WAR II, a thesis by a student at the Naval War College.
War gaming has a long history at the Naval War College (NWC) where naval officers training for command at sea can develop their skills starting with tactical level "The Duel" between ships up to running extensive campaigns. Much of the actual Pacific War, such as "island hopping", had been worked out on the floor of NWC's Luce Hall. A similar story is how the Western Approaches Tactical Unit (WATU) used war gaming to determine how the German U-boats were attacking convoys and to develop tactics to fight them -- lots of YouTube content tells their story.
The point I'm getting to from that thesis is that the NWC games after WWI started with the opponent being the UK ("Red"), the reasons being that 1) the British Navy was the most powerful navy so they'd be good to practice against and 2) at the time a conflict of national goals with the UK was possible. From another source (TV war documentary) described that we were ill-prepared to fight the German Navy because all our planning in the Atlantic had been against the British. A few years into the Interwar Period our war gaming attention shifted from "Red" to "Orange" (Japan).
At the same time, US Army gaming was directed northward to Canada (pp 23-24):
quote:
Despite British parity, pacifism, and the rising threat of Japan, Army planners pushed for the establishment of War Plan Red in 1930. With limited input from the Navy, who had started to look more towards possible Japanese aggression, the Army saw conflict against Great Britain as a land war in Canada (Crimson). To support this supposed war, the Army delegated security of the sea lines of communication between Great Britain and Halifax, far to the east of American possessions, to the Navy, with secondary goals to capture Jamaica, the Bahamas, and Bermuda to appease naval desires for Caribbean bases. American land forces would perform the decisive engagements, seizing as much of Canada as possible, and naval forces would defeat the relieving force as it sailed with the Royal Navy, as it had been wargamed by the NWC. In War Plan Red the United States had a contingency for dealing with a threat from the east.
I just was offered this YouTube video, US Plan to Invade Canada, by The Infographics Show and posted 2 years ago. Besides War Plan Red, it also reviews past border conflicts with Canada, including a minor incident in Washington, DC, during the War of 1812.
Share and enjoy!
 

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1334 by dwise1, posted 03-14-2025 11:53 AM dwise1 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1359 by dwise1, posted 04-01-2025 10:14 PM dwise1 has not replied

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 6276
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.8


Message 1359 of 1373 (922711)
04-01-2025 10:14 PM
Reply to: Message 1358 by dwise1
03-29-2025 8:21 PM


Re: Now That We've Joined The Axis of Evil ...
The Infographics Show channel on YouTube has released more content examining potential armed conflicts between the US and our former allies. I haven't watched them yet, but here's the one from a year ago, Canada's WWIII Plan, with three other videos on the side released during the past two weeks about how conflict with NATO could play out.
Breaking up out of a long-term relationship can be so messy.
 
I'm reminded of a British comedy sketch I saw on YouTube about a decade ago. Two German soldiers in uniform are tending to their gear when one starts to ponder a question (from memory):
"I've been wondering: are we the good guys?"
"Of course we are. Why would you ask?"
"I mean, look at our uniforms. They have skulls on them. Isn't that something that the bad guys would do?"
Which got me thinking the other day while driving: when is the US military going to start putting skulls on our uniforms?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1358 by dwise1, posted 03-29-2025 8:21 PM dwise1 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1360 by DrJones*, posted 04-01-2025 11:01 PM dwise1 has replied

  
DrJones*
Member
Posts: 2383
From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 08-19-2004
Member Rating: 6.7


(1)
Message 1360 of 1373 (922712)
04-01-2025 11:01 PM
Reply to: Message 1359 by dwise1
04-01-2025 10:14 PM


Re: Now That We've Joined The Axis of Evil ...
I'm reminded of a British comedy sketch
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h242eDB84zY&ab_channel=4K...

It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds
soon I discovered that this rock thing was true
Jerry Lee Lewis was the devil
Jesus was an architect previous to his career as a prophet
All of a sudden i found myself in love with the world
And so there was only one thing I could do
Was ding a ding dang my dang along ling long - Jesus Built my Hotrod Ministry
Live every week like it's Shark Week! - Tracey Jordan
Just a monkey in a long line of kings. - Matthew Good
If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist! - Get Your War On
*not an actual doctor

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1359 by dwise1, posted 04-01-2025 10:14 PM dwise1 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1361 by dwise1, posted 04-02-2025 12:56 AM DrJones* has not replied

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 6276
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.8


Message 1361 of 1373 (922713)
04-02-2025 12:56 AM
Reply to: Message 1360 by DrJones*
04-01-2025 11:01 PM


Re: Now That We've Joined The Axis of Evil ...
Yes, that's the one. Thanks.
 
Though actually, the Totenkopf ("Death's Head") was not new with the Nazis, but rather had a long history in the Prussian army as well as in other non-German militaries (including our own USMC Marine Raiders minus the crossbones).
In Prussia, it started in the late 18th Century under Fredrick II ("the Great") of Prussia who created a hussar regiment (light cavalry) whose black uniforms bore a Totenkopf. From there the symbol carried on into the mid-20th Century (follow the Totenkopf Wikipedia link for more info).
But still, it's the Nazis and the SS that we've come to think of first.
And pirates, also in that Wikipedia article.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1360 by DrJones*, posted 04-01-2025 11:01 PM DrJones* has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 18112
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 5.8


Message 1362 of 1373 (922721)
04-03-2025 6:04 AM


Trump retaliates against penguins
Among Trump’s “reciprocal” tariffs is a 10% tariff on Heard and McDonald Islands. These islands have no human inhabitants so it is rather hard to say who has been charging tariffs or what they export to the US.

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9695
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 6.1


Message 1363 of 1373 (922722)
04-03-2025 10:11 AM


Looks like Trump just declared war on the world. Buy gold, sell stock. Dig a big hole and jump in.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


  
dronestar
Member
Posts: 1500
From: usa
Joined: 11-19-2008
Member Rating: 6.5


Message 1364 of 1373 (922725)
04-03-2025 12:12 PM


The president is using a false emergency that fetanyl is poring in from canada to: 1 manipulate the markets for profit, 2 to take revenge against an attractive Justin Trudeau, and 3 destabilize the USA so entire government can be destroyed and then rebuilt to his specs (project 2025)
___
Without actual emergencies, the president is not allowed to levy tariffs, only congress can.
Last night, a majority of senators with a few republicans voted against canadian tariffs because of the specific harm of the canadian tariffs to their states. Unfortunately, it is currently doubtful the House of Representatives will also support this measure.
I am not aware of any other specific emergencies the president would have to invent to create tariffs against other countries (. . . but god knows Heard and McDonald Islands have had it coming for many years).
It truly must take a cowardly cult for the majority of congress to give up their responsibilities/rights/power so easily.

Replies to this message:
 Message 1365 by dwise1, posted 04-03-2025 12:40 PM dronestar has not replied
 Message 1366 by Taq, posted 04-03-2025 12:48 PM dronestar has not replied
 Message 1367 by dronestar, posted 04-04-2025 2:30 PM dronestar has not replied

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 6276
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.8


Message 1365 of 1373 (922728)
04-03-2025 12:40 PM
Reply to: Message 1364 by dronestar
04-03-2025 12:12 PM


Last night, a majority of senators with a few republicans voted against canadian tariffs because of the specific harm of the canadian tariffs to their states. Unfortunately, it is currently doubtful the House of Representatives will also support this measure.
There's a House rule that after a certain number of days (14 days as I seem to recall) a bill that hasn't been acted upon must be brought to the floor for a vote.
So Speaker Johnson defined the rest of this session of Congress as one single day. That way, we'll never run through the number of days that will trigger that House rule and they'll never vote on it in the remaining nine months of this session of Congress. At least that's what a Progressive Radio host (Michelangelo Signorile I think) has explained a few times.
Playing a stacked deck by House rules. With a huge dose of Worde Magick thrown in.
That reminds me, wasn't there a musical play based on a porn movie about a talking johnson (AKA "penis")?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1364 by dronestar, posted 04-03-2025 12:12 PM dronestar has not replied

  
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