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Author Topic:   The War in Europe
Phat
Member
Posts: 18740
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 1321 of 1356 (922482)
03-13-2025 3:02 PM
Reply to: Message 1320 by Percy
03-13-2025 1:40 PM


Re: Defending Trump Administration By Default
Percy writes:
I wish you'd answer the question because I'm curious, too: Is what we've seen since Trump took office what you wanted to happen when you voted for him?
*We* wanted a broken economy and global dollar system fixed, even if our allies did not like it.
We were not compassionate towards anyone. It was and is every man(woman) for ourselves. The economy was bloated and generating more and more debt. Likely, it's too late to fix even for Musk and his whizkids' A.I. analysis. You were, in fact, naive to think that we would eventually pull out of it. No politician since Obama had the will to fix it because they would be unpopular when the recession/depression inevitably hit. It likely would have hit Kamala, too, though her administration may have been able to kick the can once more.
So what have I read, listened to, or heard that fuels my suspicions?
Yahoo for one.
Gold touches new record as latest Wall Street prediction sees prices reaching $3,500
More later.

When both religious and non-religious people reach the same conclusions then you know religion isn't the reason.--Percy
God alone is God *but* God is not alone~Ellis Potter
We see Monsters where Science shows us Windmills.~Phat, remixed
Critics would of course say that "God" is a product of human imagination...but then again God may well declare that all of creation is a product of His imagination! It is all in the perspective of the observer.~Phat

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1320 by Percy, posted 03-13-2025 1:40 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1322 by Tangle, posted 03-13-2025 3:11 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 1323 by PaulK, posted 03-13-2025 3:25 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 1324 by Percy, posted 03-13-2025 4:52 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 1325 by Rahvin, posted 03-13-2025 6:12 PM Phat has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9662
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 5.6


Message 1322 of 1356 (922483)
03-13-2025 3:11 PM
Reply to: Message 1321 by Phat
03-13-2025 3:02 PM


Re: Defending Trump Administration By Default
Answer the question Phat

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1321 by Phat, posted 03-13-2025 3:02 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 18082
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 5.1


(1)
Message 1323 of 1356 (922484)
03-13-2025 3:25 PM
Reply to: Message 1321 by Phat
03-13-2025 3:02 PM


Re: Defending Trump Administration By Default
quote:
*We* wanted a broken economy and global dollar system fixed, even if our allies did not like it.
So you wanted imaginary problems fixed and now Trump’s making them real. How do you feel about THAT? Are you happy? Using it as an excuse to pretend you were right all along?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1321 by Phat, posted 03-13-2025 3:02 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 23257
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.6


Message 1324 of 1356 (922486)
03-13-2025 4:52 PM
Reply to: Message 1321 by Phat
03-13-2025 3:02 PM


Re: Defending Trump Administration By Default
Percy writes in Message 1320:
Percy writes:
I wish you'd answer the question because I'm curious, too: Is what we've seen since Trump took office what you wanted to happen when you voted for him?
*We* wanted a broken economy and global dollar system fixed, even if our allies did not like it.
I again have the exact same reaction as Tangle: answer the question.
And PaulK was right on the money in his comment on the answer you did provide.
You're turning into an evasion machine. We should start calling you Candle4.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1321 by Phat, posted 03-13-2025 3:02 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4093
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 7.3


(1)
Message 1325 of 1356 (922488)
03-13-2025 6:12 PM
Reply to: Message 1321 by Phat
03-13-2025 3:02 PM


Re: Defending Trump Administration By Default
*We* wanted a broken economy and global dollar system fixed, even if our allies did not like it.
A big piece of the problem here, Phat, is that you've accurately observed the fact that the American economy isn't working for the vast majority of people, but you've gone off the deep end on why.
You've been convinced of flatly incorrect ideas about the dollar, fiat currency, gold, and global trade.
It's absolutely true that "normal" Americans are worse off than they were a decade or two ago. inflation-adjusted household incomes are down, the unemployment numbers are clearly misleading, and more. You (and Trump!) have latched onto real pain points and righteous rage that really exist.
The problem is that your understanding of the reasons are based on delusion.

-->“The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion (either as being the received opinion or as being agreeable to itself) draws all things else to support and agree with it.” - Francis Bacon

"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers

“A world that can be explained even with bad reasons is a familiar world. But, on the other hand, in a universe suddenly divested of illusions and lights, man feels an alien, a stranger. His exile is without remedy since he is deprived of the memory of a lost home or the hope of a promised land. This divorce between man and his life, the actor and his setting, is properly the feeling of absurdity.” – Albert Camus

"...the pious hope that by combining numerous little turds of variously tainted data, one can obtain a valuable result; but in fact, the outcome is merely a larger than average pile of shit." - Barash, David 1995...

"Many that live deserve death. And some die that deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then be not too eager to deal out death in the name of justice, fearing for your own safety. Even the wise cannot see all ends." - Gandalf, J. R. R. Tolkien: The Lord Of the Rings

"The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death."
1 Corinthians 15:26King James Version (KJV)

-->Nihil supernum --> -->


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1321 by Phat, posted 03-13-2025 3:02 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1336 by Phat, posted 03-14-2025 2:50 PM Rahvin has not replied

  
xongsmith
Member
Posts: 2659
From: massachusetts US
Joined: 01-01-2009
Member Rating: 5.4


Message 1326 of 1356 (922490)
03-13-2025 11:12 PM
Reply to: Message 1319 by Percy
03-13-2025 1:36 PM


Re: Defending Trump Administration By Default
Percy writes:
I see xongsmith gave you a downvote. I read your post twice trying to figure out why and can't see it.
it was this:
Tangle wrote:
If you know a Canadian, I suggest you avoid him, they're looking quite angry right now. And so am I, they're screwing up the whole damn world.
who is screwing up the whole world? NOT CANADA. Canada is one of the good guys trying to cope with the TrumpNAZIs deserting Ukraine and putting tariffs on their trade with the USA. I would be angry at the USA myself. It is the USA that is screwing up the whole world.
Actually i think Tangle got lost in who the "they're" was referring to.

"I'm the Grim Reaper now, Mitch. Step aside."
Death to #TzarVladimirtheCondemned!
"Enjoy every sandwich!"-Warren Zevon on his last DaveLetterman show

- xongsmith, 5.7dawkins scale


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1319 by Percy, posted 03-13-2025 1:36 PM Percy has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1327 by dwise1, posted 03-14-2025 1:53 AM xongsmith has not replied

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 6238
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


(2)
Message 1327 of 1356 (922491)
03-14-2025 1:53 AM
Reply to: Message 1326 by xongsmith
03-13-2025 11:12 PM


Re: Defending Trump Administration By Default
Tangle wrote:
If you know a Canadian, I suggest you avoid him, they're looking quite angry right now. And so am I, they're screwing up the whole damn world.

who is screwing up the whole world? NOT CANADA. Canada is one of the good guys trying to cope with the TrumpNAZIs deserting Ukraine and putting tariffs on their trade with the USA. I would be angry at the USA myself. It is the USA that is screwing up the whole world.
Yes, that is correct. Percy and I read Tangle as saying the same thing, that the subjects indicated by "they" had changed from the one sentence to the next. Substituting explicit names for the pronouns:
Deep Structure Parse writes:
If you know a Canadian, I suggest you avoid him, Canadians are looking quite angry right now. And so am I, Trump and his gang are screwing up the whole damn world.
Elbows up!
(things have to be really bad for me to make a sports reference)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1326 by xongsmith, posted 03-13-2025 11:12 PM xongsmith has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9662
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 5.6


(1)
Message 1328 of 1356 (922492)
03-14-2025 2:45 AM


Well yes, of course I didn't mean that it's Canadians that are screwing up the world!
Ambiguous grammar corrected.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


Replies to this message:
 Message 1329 by xongsmith, posted 03-14-2025 4:27 AM Tangle has replied

  
xongsmith
Member
Posts: 2659
From: massachusetts US
Joined: 01-01-2009
Member Rating: 5.4


Message 1329 of 1356 (922493)
03-14-2025 4:27 AM
Reply to: Message 1328 by Tangle
03-14-2025 2:45 AM


a nitpick
and if you know a Canadian, you don't have to avoid him. you avoid Trump, but not a Canadian.

"I'm the Grim Reaper now, Mitch. Step aside."
Death to #TzarVladimirtheCondemned!
"Enjoy every sandwich!"-Warren Zevon on his last DaveLetterman show

- xongsmith, 5.7dawkins scale


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1328 by Tangle, posted 03-14-2025 2:45 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1330 by Tangle, posted 03-14-2025 6:03 AM xongsmith has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9662
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 5.6


Message 1330 of 1356 (922494)
03-14-2025 6:03 AM
Reply to: Message 1329 by xongsmith
03-14-2025 4:27 AM


Re: a nitpick
xong writes:
and if you know a Canadian, you don't have to avoid him. you avoid Trump, but not a Canadian.
Bloody hell, everything is open to misinterpretation now, the whole world is on edge.
I meant that if Phat - a Trump apologist - knows any Canadians he'd best avoid them as he's likely to get his lights punched out. (Not that any Canadian would actually do that, they're a civilised country. Just for the avoidance of any remaining doubt.)
And just to show solidarity, I'll be in Canada in about 12 hours. I'll buy myself a maple leaf pin and on my return I'll stock up with syrup (which is surprisingly heavy.)

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1329 by xongsmith, posted 03-14-2025 4:27 AM xongsmith has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1333 by dronestar, posted 03-14-2025 9:56 AM Tangle has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9662
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 5.6


(1)
Message 1331 of 1356 (922495)
03-14-2025 7:02 AM


I just saw a clip of a Fox News anchor talking to the premier of Ontario and saying that Canadians should see it as a 'privilege' to be taken over by the United States.
“You say that Americans don’t have a problem with Canadians, and we don’t, but it seems like you have a problem with us. Because if I were a citizen of another country and I was a neighbour of the United States, I would consider it a privilege to be taken over by the United States of America. That’s what everybody else in the world wants — American citizenship. For some reason, that’s repellant to you Canadians, and I find that personally offensive.”
The sheer fatuousness of this is jaw dropping. It's 'offensive' for a sovereign state not to want to be taken over by a foreign country?' Fuck off quickly is the only satisfactory response.
I feel sorry for any world leader having to talk to this administration or its captured media. You just don't expect this imperialistic, pig-ignorant, brutal language from an 'ally'.
I suppose we'll learn how to deal with these playground bullies eventually but it's an ignoble ordeal.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


Replies to this message:
 Message 1332 by Percy, posted 03-14-2025 8:35 AM Tangle has not replied
 Message 1346 by DrJones*, posted 03-14-2025 8:10 PM Tangle has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 23257
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.6


Message 1332 of 1356 (922498)
03-14-2025 8:35 AM
Reply to: Message 1331 by Tangle
03-14-2025 7:02 AM


Tangle writes in Message 1331:
I just saw a clip of a Fox News anchor talking to the premier of Ontario and saying that Canadians should see it as a 'privilege' to be taken over by the United States.
"Please, sir, beat me again."
How is Trump's desire to take over Canada, Greenland and Panama any different than Putin's desire to take over Ukraine? Maybe Trump will make a deal. Russia gets Ukraine and the U.S. gets Canada, Greenland and Panama.
I'm beginning to believe that Trump's thinking is aligned in certain ways with Hitler's philosophy that war is the natural state
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1331 by Tangle, posted 03-14-2025 7:02 AM Tangle has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1335 by PaulK, posted 03-14-2025 1:15 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied
 Message 1337 by Phat, posted 03-14-2025 2:58 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
dronestar
Member
Posts: 1489
From: usa
Joined: 11-19-2008
Member Rating: 6.3


(1)
Message 1333 of 1356 (922499)
03-14-2025 9:56 AM
Reply to: Message 1330 by Tangle
03-14-2025 6:03 AM


Re: a nitpick
Western new yorker here. I visit Canada often (Niagara Falls, St Catherines, Niagara-on-the-Lake, Hamilton, Toronto). Great hiking, stores, art/theater, and people.
Last week, when going into shops, we groveled incessantly how embarrassed and sorry we are that so many americans are angry and mentally-retarded.
Keep in mind, the americans have already invaded Canada in the 1800s. They remember, nearly all americans don't.
And so far, in return, the Canadians have been deeply understanding and generous in their forgiveness.
So far.
We tell them, instead of Canada becoming the US' 51 state, can New York state become Canada's eleventh province. PLEEEASE!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1330 by Tangle, posted 03-14-2025 6:03 AM Tangle has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1334 by dwise1, posted 03-14-2025 11:53 AM dronestar has replied

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 6238
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


(1)
Message 1334 of 1356 (922500)
03-14-2025 11:53 AM
Reply to: Message 1333 by dronestar
03-14-2025 9:56 AM


Re: a nitpick
Keep in mind, the americans have already invaded Canada in the 1800s. They remember, nearly all americans don't.
As I recall, as would most Americans, we invaded Canada as part of the War of 1812 with the UK. Earlier, as I recall, we had invaded Canada during the Revolutionary War in part to get them to join in our rebellion, but no joy.
What surprised me was learning about the Fenian Raids (1866-1871), which I learned about while researching Wikipedia about the name of a popular local Irish band, The Fenians (one of whose songs had also made us aware of the Saint Patrick's Battalion Los Sanpatricios, Irish US soldiers during the Mexican-American War who defected and fought for Mexico; we visited a memorial to them in Mexico City).
Irish soldiers on both sides of the Civil War banded together after the war to turn their military training and experience to carry on the fight for the Irish cause by invading Canada, then part of British North America:
Wikipedia: Fenian Raids:
The Fenian raids were a series of incursions carried out by the Fenian Brotherhood, an Irish republican organization based in the United States, on military fortifications, customs posts and other targets in Canada (then part of British North America) in 1866, and again from 1870 to 1871. A number of separate incursions by the Fenian Brotherhood into Canada were undertaken to bring pressure on the British government to withdraw from Ireland, although none of these raids achieved their aims.
In Canada, the incursions divided its burgeoning Irish-Canadian population, many of whom were torn between loyalty to their new home and sympathy for the aims of the Fenians. Protestant Irish immigrants were generally loyal to the British and fought with the pro-Union Orange Order against the Fenians.
While authorities in the United States arrested the men and confiscated the arms of the Fenian Brotherhood, there was speculation that some in the U.S. government ignored the preparations undertaken by the Fenians due to anger over British assistance to the Confederacy during the American Civil War. The Fenian raids were one of the factors that led to Canadian Confederation, as the provinces united to face the threat of invasions.
Of course, we never heard of that in American history class, but a Canadian friend at church (UU) told me that they most definitely learned about it in their schools. From the quote above, I would think part of the reason it's covered is much like why we cover the Boston Tea Party and the Boston Massacre in our schools, because the Fenian Raids were a factor in the formation of Canada as a country.
I would note that an acquaintance who had spent some time living and working in Canada told me that Canadians celebrate St. Patrick's Day by wearing orange.
So Canada's history features invasions from the south, from us, so current affairs must look to Canadians a lot like history repeating itself.
 
There's also "Case Red", which I read about in GAMING THE INTERWAR: HOW NAVAL WAR COLLEGE WARGAMES TILTED THE PLAYING FIELD FOR THE U.S. NAVY DURING WORLD WAR II, a thesis by a student at the Naval War College.
War gaming has a long history at the Naval War College (NWC) where naval officers training for command at sea can develop their skills starting with tactical level "The Duel" between ships up to running extensive campaigns. Much of the actual Pacific War, such as "island hopping", had been worked out on the floor of NWC's Luce Hall. A similar story is how the Western Approaches Tactical Unit (WATU) used war gaming to determine how the German U-boats were attacking convoys and to develop tactics to fight them -- lots of YouTube content tells their story.
The point I'm getting to from that thesis is that the NWC games after WWI started with the opponent being the UK ("Red"), the reasons being that 1) the British Navy was the most powerful navy so they'd be good to practice against and 2) at the time a conflict of national goals with the UK was possible. From another source (TV war documentary) described that we were ill-prepared to fight the German Navy because all our planning in the Atlantic had been against the British. A few years into the Interwar Period our war gaming attention shifted from "Red" to "Orange" (Japan).
At the same time, US Army gaming was directed northward to Canada (pp 23-24):
quote:
Despite British parity, pacifism, and the rising threat of Japan, Army planners pushed for the establishment of War Plan Red in 1930. With limited input from the Navy, who had started to look more towards possible Japanese aggression, the Army saw conflict against Great Britain as a land war in Canada (Crimson). To support this supposed war, the Army delegated security of the sea lines of communication between Great Britain and Halifax, far to the east of American possessions, to the Navy, with secondary goals to capture Jamaica, the Bahamas, and Bermuda to appease naval desires for Caribbean bases. American land forces would perform the decisive engagements, seizing as much of Canada as possible, and naval forces would defeat the relieving force as it sailed with the Royal Navy, as it had been wargamed by the NWC. In War Plan Red the United States had a contingency for dealing with a threat from the east.
We should keep in mind that the military develops war plans for the purpose of preparation, not because we're intending to actually attack those countries. Rather, it's so that when problems do develop we aren't caught unprepared, but rather can take immediate action -- in contrast in Dec 1941 when Japan had seized large parts of the West Pacific our government was scrambling trying to figure out what natural resources we no longer had access to.
I have to wonder how much of Trump's "sudden" aspirations for expansion stems from our library of war plans. Remember his question the first time around (from memory): "What's the good of nuclear weapons if we don't use them?" We can only look towards the next hurricane season with great trepidation.
BTW, war gaming is not just for the military, but also for economic and diplomatic planning. Refer to the documentary, War Game (2024), about a simulation in which American officials deal with a coup after a disputed election (eg, Alexander Vindman, Steve Bullock, Wesley Clark, Heidi Heitkamp, Doug Jones, Bill Kristol).
Obviously, other countries do the same kind of planning. Without a doubt, our allies (becoming former allies) have developed their own plans for how to handle the defection of the USA to the Axis of Evil.
 
Elbows up!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1333 by dronestar, posted 03-14-2025 9:56 AM dronestar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1344 by dronestar, posted 03-14-2025 4:38 PM dwise1 has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 18082
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 1335 of 1356 (922501)
03-14-2025 1:15 PM
Reply to: Message 1332 by Percy
03-14-2025 8:35 AM


quote:
How is Trump's desire to take over Canada, Greenland and Panama any different than Putin's desire to take over Ukraine? Maybe Trump will make a deal. Russia gets Ukraine and the U.S. gets Canada, Greenland and Panama.
The difference is that Putin is a murdering dictator and the government and military do what he says. Trump only aspires to that status.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1332 by Percy, posted 03-14-2025 8:35 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
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