The War in Europe

Do you know any "friends" who routinely pay for your security?Being on that side of the pond, you tacitly acknowledge that you and your cronies from the Cold War era have "underpaid" for years. Suddenly, your friend and ally from across the pond honestly admits that "she" has financial problems and cannot be the primary contributor. What's so wrong with being honest? You should be asking yourself why you never offered to pay your fair share before. Also...why Biden and Co never saw it as a problem? It is always easy for progressives to cheerfully pay other people's bills as long as they have the money!

Did you actually bother to read the first line of the post you are responding to?

We're talking about countries, not individuals. Countries form mutually advantageous alliances and call themselves friends because the have shared values and goals, NATO was one.
​ Sure, if the USA want to destroy alliances that survived decades and prevented the world blowing itself up it can petulantly and stupidly throw all its toys out of the pram and sell an ally down the river in its belief in short-term self-interest.Good luck with this disgrace to democracy, like she said, you don't know what you've got til its gone.

We are the best friend Europe has ever had and if they get mad because we won't pay any more, good luck trying to find a better "friend" to replace us. One problem is that currently too many of your leaders are progressive globalists. Its time you grew up and paid your own bills. We always end up paying ours.

While Trump’s in charge it wouldn’t be that hard.Ramping up global warming instead of trying to limit it to a level we might be able to live with.Tariffs and trade wars - and yes, Europe and Britain are getting hit there.And Trump has even threatened to invade Greenland - which belongs to Denmark, a NATO country.Who needs a “friend” like that?

Wow - we couldn't even see Trump's lips moving.We've been over this before, see, for example, Message 1165.Also see Message 1193, a sort of meta-message that, among other things, mentions your habit of ignoring rebuttals then raising the same nonsense again later.--Percy

Phat, how many people do you have in your social circle that you would call a 'friend' when they pay for something and then hold that over your head like an axe?Maybe in the past this person has done things for you, and you can get he's urging you to do more yourself, sure (Which is happening btw, it had been happening before Trump claimed he was the one that caused Europe to work up to a % of budget spending on military), but right now, that 'friend' is not only pissing on you because they gave money before.They're telling you that your worst enemy, is going to be their new best friend, and whatever shit they leave behind together, YOU have to pick up, you have to fix, and he's giving you the middle finger.Would you call that person a friend still because you have a history together?I've broken off with friends in the past for less than that.

The reason you're out in left field on this one has additional reasons, so I guess I should reply. Europe is not angry and upset about being asked to contribute more for their defense. They agree they should take on more responsibility and more of the costs. But the U.S. took on the lion's share because we gained so much from it. I won't get into details, but it gave us a huge say in military matters. Reagan wanted it that way, Bush I wanted it that way, and Bush II wanted it that way. It gave us the ability to play the role of the world's policemen, a role we highly desired because it gave us so much say across the whole gamut of world affairs. Whatever we wanted regarding Russia or Israel or Iraq or Iran, Europe largely went along. Europe is not a burden but an enormous asset, and the Trump administrations actions are diminishing the U.S. as a major player in world affairs.Backing away from Europe will also negatively impact our influence in the Middle East. Our ability to project power there will be much diminished without our bases in Europe as we abandon them and European countries take them over. Russia will be able to project its power not only into Europe but also into the Middle East, Iraq, Iran, Pakistan, India and Southeast Asia.What Europe *is* angry and upset about is Trump's unilateral backing out of the NATO alliance by stating he will no longer recognize the North Atlantic Treaty's Article 5 for mutual defense, where an attack on one NATO member is considered an attack on all.They are angry and upset about Vance's speech blaming Europe for the Russia threat, for even seeing Russia as a threat.They are angry and upset that Vance blamed them for being an obstacle to democracy.They are angry and upset about Vance engaging in dialog with far right almost Nazi political groups, and criticizing Europe for not ceding these groups a bigger voice in government. This is from Trump and Vance have smashed the old order – how should Europe respond?

The Guardian:

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At the Munich security conference, the US vice-president, JD Vance, accused Europe of abandoning the values of democracy by erecting firewalls to exclude the far right from government; of fearing its peoples, and of restricting free speech. This was to a mainly European audience eagerly expecting Vance to address the big security questions of our time, from Ukraine and Russia to China and the Middle East. His assault on European democracy left the room dumbfounded and seething. His chilling suggestion that the waging war against disinformation amounts to war on democracy felt like a genuinely shocking moment.

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In other words, Vance wants Europe to give lies as much free rein in Europe as they have in the U.S. where people like you just eat it up.Europe is also angry and upset about being left out of the Ukraine war talks between Russia and the U.S. Ukraine is being left out, too. It isn't just Ukraine's neck on the block. Europe is next in line (picture Robespierre's guillotine and the Reign of Terror as described by Dickens), yet neither have any voice in these talks.The EU is our biggest trading partner and also our biggest military partner. If we break or substantially weaken ties with Europe, such as by abandoning NATO and levying tariffs, then Trump risks one day peering across that ocean he thinks is his bulwark and facing not a friend but a foe. The ocean might not seem so big, then. Those here of a historic bent will recall blackouts on our east and west coasts because of Japanese and Nazi submarines. And certainly everyone recalls the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor, half of the world's biggest ocean away from Japan. How many know that during WWII the Japanese occupied U.S. territory in Alaska, specifically the islands of Attu and Kiska? The oceans do not render us invulnerable and safe.NATO and the trading and political relationships between the U.S. and Europe are in the best interests of both. We are friends, not enemies. I will now add my downvote to your message.--Percy

France, during the American Revolution and the period thereafter. Of course, France hated the British at the time so it was a bit self serving. The same applies in the Ukraine war where we have no problem with Ukraine weakening Russia with our weapons.The US trades the payments for a say in European security policies. This is how it has been since the end of WW II. Most people think it is important for the US to be the global superpower. That costs money.

It is worth mentioning that globalization was the US's idea. That is the world order we put in place right after WW II. We said that everyone can trade with everyone, and the US will use its navy to protect the oceans. Part of that same deal was decolonization, where the European powers relinquished control of their overseas colonies and protectorates. In addition, we asked the Europeans to the take the US's side in the Cold War and let the US have a voice in security decisions. This also included providing military security to Europe. It's the same deal we have with Japan.This is the agreement we made with the democracies in Europe, so it's rather stupid to pretend as if this agreement never existed and get all huffy because we no longer want to hold up our end. It's also rather stupid to complain about globalization when it is the system the US put in place. If we do want to transition to a new agreement, then fine. We work with our allies to find a solution that fits for everyone and work towards that goal. What we don't do is throw our toys out of the pram.

Herr Trump has just said about Ukraine “… you should have never started it.”He's quite literally accusing Ukraine of starting the war. Putin has him completely surrounded.

The issue is elimination of what has historically een Big Government. The question is how much it costs to maintain the asset and the paid relationships thereof. Remember Chicagos Mayor Daly and accusations of his "Big Political Machine"? A Big bureaucracy costs a lot of money to operate. In todays modern era, some jobs are created merely to satisfy diversity, equity, and inclusion. The Republican position is that there is a lot of waste in many of these salaries, from the military on down. You guys claim that Europe is an essential friend who shares intelligence information with us, though I would assert that it is we who have the best network of intelligence and have clogged up the payroll with all of these bases and government jobs that are claimed to be so necessary. I have heard, though not confirmed that the Director of the Kennedy Center for the arts has a salary approching a million dollars a year. Multiply that sort of bureaucracy over the globe and you may understand why paring back the budget is a necessary step for our country. We simply cant afford what it costs to be a global superpower. More of these costs should be shared more equitably among our partners.In addition, this talk of us cozying up to Russia and Putin are overblown progressive propaganda.
Trump sees Democracy as a series of business deals that save his client (The US) money and trimming the big government syndrome that has grown global along with our superpower responsibilities.I also wouldnt fear China filling the vacuum anytime soon. They have financial problems of their own.As for the Middle East, European bases are not an absolute necessity though regional bases are.We have our carriers and naval battle groups to serve as launch points for any crises.It seems that you guys are alarmists who are in favor of keeping a lot of the jobs that long since grew out of a bloated budget. Of course, you would rather lay off far-right workers than progressive leftists, many of whom fill a lot of slots. And I will agree that Trump is far from perfect...he is a train wreck but he is in fact trimming the fat that the progressives would never have the guts to trim. Granted he will use the savings to engineer another tax break or extend the tax cuts of the past. Ultimately, its all about money and the conflicting priorities over who gets it.

Who are you blaming for that? The fact is that the wars contribute more damage towards Global Warming than anything any politician has ever done.

Obviously Trump is to blame for Trump’s policies. Why would we blame anyone else?

Might I remind you that Europe and Biden had a lot more to do with the war in Ukraine than Trump ever did. He wants to stop it. That alone would surely help slow down Climate Change.