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Author Topic:   The War in Europe
Minnemooseus
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Posts: 3945
From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior)
Joined: 11-11-2001
Member Rating: 10.0


Message 901 of 995 (907518)
02-25-2023 12:11 AM


"The War in Ukraine Did Not Start One Year Ago…"
quote:
t is one year after Russia invaded Ukraine and most people in the United States and Europe still think that is when the war started. I speak to Consortium News editor Joe Lauria and our geopolitical analyst Professor Gerald Horne. And we take another look at the Oliver Stone-produced documentary, “Ukraine on Fire,” which tells the truth about how this war really started eight years ago with the U.S.-backed violent coup of Ukraine’s democratically elected president.
‘ON THE GROUND’ SHOW FOR FEBRUARY 24, 2023: The War in Ukraine Did Not Start One Year Ago… With Joe Lauria and Gerald Horne… Plus Excerpts from ‘Ukraine on Fire’…   | On The Ground
Downloadable audio available at link.
I am NOT taking the position that the Russian invasion is justified, but...
Moose

Replies to this message:
 Message 902 by AZPaul3, posted 02-25-2023 4:47 AM Minnemooseus has seen this message but not replied
 Message 903 by Phat, posted 02-25-2023 8:18 AM Minnemooseus has seen this message but not replied
 Message 905 by Percy, posted 02-25-2023 10:54 AM Minnemooseus has seen this message but not replied
 Message 906 by Tanypteryx, posted 02-25-2023 2:43 PM Minnemooseus has seen this message but not replied
 Message 910 by Minnemooseus, posted 03-08-2023 10:06 PM Minnemooseus has seen this message but not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8527
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.2


(1)
Message 902 of 995 (907522)
02-25-2023 4:47 AM
Reply to: Message 901 by Minnemooseus
02-25-2023 12:11 AM


Re: The War in Ukraine Did Not Start One Year Ago…
Moose, do you have any other source on this bullshit?
Did you check other sources before swallowing this bullshit?
You going to tell us you don't know it's bullshit?
I hope you are being facetious because this is damn dangerous.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 901 by Minnemooseus, posted 02-25-2023 12:11 AM Minnemooseus has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 904 by Phat, posted 02-25-2023 8:22 AM AZPaul3 has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18298
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 903 of 995 (907523)
02-25-2023 8:18 AM
Reply to: Message 901 by Minnemooseus
02-25-2023 12:11 AM


Re: The War in Ukraine Did Not Start One Year Ago…
Yeah Global Politics is complicated and I'm no political scientist. Lets take Putin. He was a junior KGB agent at the time the Berlin wall fell...in East Germany. The wall came down and communism in the Soviet Union began to fall. Putin was promoted eventually to president by Yeltsin. The old school respected his love for country and power. He did not dissappoint them. Bill Clinton warned Yeltsin about him. Clinton was not naive. So then along comes Bush/Gore and the beginning of a solid divide in US politics. Dubya gets in by a squeak. Then comes 9-11. Meanwhile Mr.Putin is getting rich and powerful, stealing from Russias treasury, according to some.
Dubya was dumber than his Father H.W, but American "Oligarchs" also benefited from 9-11 and grew rich by essentially stealing from America. Putin could get along more with his own kind and that meant Republicans. Biden, in contrast, seems to get along better with his own kind and that loosely means Social Democrats.
Now unlike you guys, I assume that both Left and Right "Oligarchs are evil. Biden is in line with Left Wing Oligarchs. The Bushes, Reagan, and Trump are more in bed with Right Wing Oligarchs. Thus, Putin (Right Wing) liked Trump (Right Wing). Biden (Left Wing) invests,along with the Pelosi's in China (Social Democrat/Communist.) Does Europe lean Left or Right? Trump wanted to abolish NATO, while Biden wants it together.
Like I said, its all quite complex. And where does Zelensky fit in? He was Time Magazine Man Of The Year and the poster boy for Freedom and Democracy yet Putin hated that he was in power. Thus Don Corleone(Biden) supports Zelensky while the Right Wing Oligarchs and Putin supported Trump.
Comments?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 901 by Minnemooseus, posted 02-25-2023 12:11 AM Minnemooseus has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18298
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 904 of 995 (907524)
02-25-2023 8:22 AM
Reply to: Message 902 by AZPaul3
02-25-2023 4:47 AM


Follow The Money
Dangerous? Im assuming that you would be a Left Wing Oligarch were you rich.
Lets follow the money to and through Ukraine. (100 Billion Dollars?)
I hear so many stories from both political ideologies! It seems that Left Wing money and Right Wing money fight each other.
I bet that Putin secured loans for Trump. And I don't know where the Biden (mafioso) get their money, but old Uncle Joe ain't broke.
Historically Ukraine was the birthplace of the Czars. White Russians. It just gets more and more complex the farther down this rabbit hole we venture.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 902 by AZPaul3, posted 02-25-2023 4:47 AM AZPaul3 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 907 by xongsmith, posted 02-25-2023 5:55 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22479
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.7


(5)
Message 905 of 995 (907540)
02-25-2023 10:54 AM
Reply to: Message 901 by Minnemooseus
02-25-2023 12:11 AM


Re: The War in Ukraine Did Not Start One Year Ago…
There was a violent US-backed coup in Ukraine in 2014? Who knew!
I'm not going to listen to a 55 minute podcast (or almost any podcast of any length, for that matter). If you want to pass the information it contains on to us that's up to you.
I am NOT taking the position that the Russian invasion is justified, but...
You claim to not be saying the Russian invasion is justified, but add a "but". So tell us, what *would* justify it. Let's say, just for the sake of discussion, that we were as active and enthusiastic supporter of Ukraine as we are of Taiwan. Would that justify the Russian invasion? By the way, wouldn't the same logic argue that China is justified in invading Taiwan?
What terrible offenses committed by western supporters of Ukraine justify what Russia is doing to Ukraine? It isn't just an unprovoked invasion, it's targeting civilians and civilian infrastructure as well as committing atrocities on a significant scale. What could ever justify any of this?
What evidence could anyone present that would make people say, "Oh, okay, I see why Russia is doing this and that they have strong justifications for the theft of Ukrainian agricultural products like grain, the attacks on civilians and civilian infrastructure, the rapes, the murders, the mass graves, and the invasion itself. It all makes sense now."
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 901 by Minnemooseus, posted 02-25-2023 12:11 AM Minnemooseus has seen this message but not replied

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4409
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.4


(2)
Message 906 of 995 (907544)
02-25-2023 2:43 PM
Reply to: Message 901 by Minnemooseus
02-25-2023 12:11 AM


Re: The War in Ukraine Did Not Start One Year Ago…
This is just weird.
I guess you forgot about the Russians annexing Crimea, in March 2014.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq


This message is a reply to:
 Message 901 by Minnemooseus, posted 02-25-2023 12:11 AM Minnemooseus has seen this message but not replied

  
xongsmith
Member
Posts: 2587
From: massachusetts US
Joined: 01-01-2009
Member Rating: 6.4


(2)
Message 907 of 995 (907550)
02-25-2023 5:55 PM
Reply to: Message 904 by Phat
02-25-2023 8:22 AM


Re: Follow The Money
Phat writes, in part:
And I don't know where the Biden (mafioso) get their money
Do you have some documentation that the Biden family behaves like a mafioso family??
This isn't the first time i've seen you allude to this.
Where did you get this from? Hunter's laptop?
Did the Biden take a rival family's hit on his family all those years ago?

"I'm the Grim Reaper now, Mitch. Step aside."
Death to #TzarVladimirtheCondemned!
Enjoy every sandwich!

- xongsmith, 5.7dawkins scale


This message is a reply to:
 Message 904 by Phat, posted 02-25-2023 8:22 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 908 by Tanypteryx, posted 02-25-2023 6:15 PM xongsmith has not replied

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4409
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.4


(3)
Message 908 of 995 (907552)
02-25-2023 6:15 PM
Reply to: Message 907 by xongsmith
02-25-2023 5:55 PM


Re: Follow The Money
Xong writes:
Phat writes, in part:
And I don't know where the Biden (mafioso) get their money
Do you have some documentation that the Biden family behaves like a mafioso family??
Of course he doesn't! He just loves to throw out random character smears of any handy liberal...Pete, AOC, etc......just like all his fellow Republican Scumbags! If they repeat the lies often enough they all start believing it, and threatening people's lives!

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq


This message is a reply to:
 Message 907 by xongsmith, posted 02-25-2023 5:55 PM xongsmith has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 909 by jar, posted 02-25-2023 7:25 PM Tanypteryx has seen this message but not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 414 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(3)
Message 909 of 995 (907568)
02-25-2023 7:25 PM
Reply to: Message 908 by Tanypteryx
02-25-2023 6:15 PM


Re: Follow The Money
As usual it is simply another example of Phat's utter inability to fact check anything.
Joe and Jill Biden have a Net Worth of about $9 million dollars mostly based on the value to two homes in this inflated market and his federal pension.
Hardly the net worth of even a half-assed mafiosi.
Phat is simply willfully ignorant and dishonest.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 908 by Tanypteryx, posted 02-25-2023 6:15 PM Tanypteryx has seen this message but not replied

  
Minnemooseus
Member
Posts: 3945
From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior)
Joined: 11-11-2001
Member Rating: 10.0


(2)
Message 910 of 995 (908153)
03-08-2023 10:06 PM
Reply to: Message 901 by Minnemooseus
02-25-2023 12:11 AM


Re: "The War in Ukraine Did Not Start One Year Ago…"
I was trying to put out the perspective of some of those of the leftest persuasion. I was not trying to say that they are right. I do not think they are right.
But I do think their position is that the west (NATO) did take actions to provoke the paranoid Russian leadership. Which does not justify the Russian invasion.
I put out the link to the audio as "something to listen to, if you wish", not as an argument that the position is right.
Another source of similar thinking:
The Selling of the Ukraine War — Alternative Radio
The program blurb:
quote:
February 24 marks the first-year anniversary of the Russian invasion of Ukraine. Moscow’s action is a clear violation of international law. But it was not unprovoked. The NATO military alliance has expanded its bases right up to Russia’s borders. The U.S. and its NATO allies are sending more and more arms to Ukraine. Last week it was Patriot missiles. This week it’s tanks. What will it be next week? Fighter jets? The steady escalation of weaponry is music to the ears of the military-industrial complex. The longer the war goes on the more their cash registers go ka-ching. The continuation of the war is getting a hard sell from the armchair pundits and retired generals and their corporate media enablers. What will it take to stop the war?
The speaker (Medea Benjamin) bio there:
quote:
Medea Benjamin is a renowned peace activist and social justice advocate. Newsday calls her, “one of America’s most committed and most effective fighters for human rights.” She is co-founder of Global Exchange and CODEPINK. She is the recipient of the Martin Luther King, Jr. Peace Prize from the Fellowship of Reconciliation and the Gandhi Peace Award. She is the author of many books including Inside Iran, Kingdom of the Unjust: Behind the U.S.-Saudi Connection and War in Ukraine: Making Sense of a Senseless War.
See (if you wish) the reviews at the cited page. The current two most recent seems to well state the opposing perspectives:
quote:
Garbage. Why the left in America insists on putting everything in the same box I will never understand. The Ukrainian cause for their own freedom from the Russian Mob state is the progressive cause of our day. Have you ever been to Ukraine? They just want to be left alone. It was Ukrainians that wanted to be a part of Europe, the EU, NATO, not some American plot. Want the war to end? So does everyone – except Putin. Tell the Russians to go home, give back Crimea – invaded and stolen- get out of the Donbas and the puppet fake republics of E UA, and PAY for the destruction and crimes you have committed, Russia! Otherwise, I say we fight with the Ukrainians ALL THE WAY, and give them whatever it takes. I am a life long progressive and liberal with no apologies, but this ‘the West brought this on’ is bullshit. Tell that to the people of Ukraine.
quote:
Thank you Medea for being a voice of reason in the cacophony for war, more war and evermore war. The West, especially the US, was never serious about a peaceful resolution to the Ukrainian civil war – the civil war was a feature not a bug. The Minsk accords, from the West’s perspective, were nothing but a ruse to build up Ukraine for the inevitable Russian attack, as Angela Merkel recently made clear. Now the West is prepared to fight Russia until the last Ukrainian solder is gone. Let me be clear: The Russian invasion of Ukraine was immoral and an unspeakable tragedy for the women and children crushed as a result. However, the West could have peace in Ukraine tomorrow if its unstated goal were not the unconditional surrender and/or destruction of Russia. I think that the rest of the world will soon tire of the US’ myopia and try diplomacy and non-alignment instead, hopefully, before the next fabricated excuse for war gets us all killed.
I'm on the "Garbage" side.
If one wishes to listen to the talk, KTWH-LP is broadcasting and web streaming it tomorrow (Thursday 03-09-23) at 9:00 pm (US central time). It is also available via podcast via link at the Alternative Radio link at the top of this message (the podcast link is Podcast — Alternative Radio).
Moose

This message is a reply to:
 Message 901 by Minnemooseus, posted 02-25-2023 12:11 AM Minnemooseus has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 911 by Percy, posted 03-09-2023 7:22 AM Minnemooseus has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22479
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.7


Message 911 of 995 (908162)
03-09-2023 7:22 AM
Reply to: Message 910 by Minnemooseus
03-08-2023 10:06 PM


Re: "The War in Ukraine Did Not Start One Year Ago…"
Except for a sentence here and there, I could find nothing in your quotes to agree with.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 910 by Minnemooseus, posted 03-08-2023 10:06 PM Minnemooseus has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 912 by Phat, posted 03-09-2023 9:17 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied
 Message 914 by Minnemooseus, posted 03-09-2023 10:19 PM Percy has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18298
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 912 of 995 (908168)
03-09-2023 9:17 AM
Reply to: Message 911 by Percy
03-09-2023 7:22 AM


Thats What We Do
Percy writes:
Except for a sentence here and there, I could find nothing in your quotes to agree with.
How boring of a place EvC would be if we all agreed.
Our goals should ideally employ the Forum Guidelines of course. Occasionally we get a bit personal and jab each other.
For the record, after reading Mooses sources, I agree with the following:
(To be edited)

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 Message 911 by Percy, posted 03-09-2023 7:22 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
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nwr
Member
Posts: 6409
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.3


(4)
Message 913 of 995 (908178)
03-09-2023 10:54 AM
Reply to: Message 912 by Phat
03-09-2023 9:17 AM


Re: Thats What We Do
For the record, after reading Mooses sources, I agree with the following:
(To be edited)
Yes, I agree. Whatever you intended to say will need to be edited in order for it to make any sense.

--> -->Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity --> -->

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Minnemooseus
Member
Posts: 3945
From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior)
Joined: 11-11-2001
Member Rating: 10.0


(2)
Message 914 of 995 (908303)
03-09-2023 10:19 PM
Reply to: Message 911 by Percy
03-09-2023 7:22 AM


Re: "The War in Ukraine Did Not Start One Year Ago…"
Except for a sentence here and there, I could find nothing in your quotes to agree with.​
quote:
Garbage. Why the left in America insists on putting everything in the same box I will never understand. The Ukrainian cause for their own freedom from the Russian Mob state is the progressive cause of our day. Have you ever been to Ukraine? They just want to be left alone. It was Ukrainians that wanted to be a part of Europe, the EU, NATO, not some American plot. Want the war to end? So does everyone – except Putin. Tell the Russians to go home, give back Crimea – invaded and stolen- get out of the Donbas and the puppet fake republics of E UA, and PAY for the destruction and crimes you have committed, Russia! Otherwise, I say we fight with the Ukrainians ALL THE WAY, and give them whatever it takes. I am a life long progressive and liberal with no apologies, but this ‘the West brought this on’ is bullshit. Tell that to the people of Ukraine.
You find little to agree with in that quoted review of the talk???
An earlier (further down page) review:
quote:
I’m a lifelong leftist, woke AF, and a peace advocate. Yet I don’t accept Medea Benjamin’s premise at all that the War in Ukraine is just another sales job by the military-industrial complex. Putin is trying to resurrect the Russian Empire, and he will sacrifice unlimited lives to do it. There must be strong resistance from the West. NATO’s girding up for the invasion was not a “provocation.” It was simply preparing to defend itself and its allies from Putin’s war-mongering. The reality is that we still have dictators ruling much of the world, and we must maintain military strength to deter them from tyranny.
Do you also find little to agree with in that review of the talk?
The reviews are extremely polarized. They are either "totally agree" or "totally disagree".
Moose

This message is a reply to:
 Message 911 by Percy, posted 03-09-2023 7:22 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 915 by Percy, posted 03-10-2023 4:46 PM Minnemooseus has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22479
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.7


Message 915 of 995 (908322)
03-10-2023 4:46 PM
Reply to: Message 914 by Minnemooseus
03-09-2023 10:19 PM


Re: "The War in Ukraine Did Not Start One Year Ago…"
All the responses to the program blurb are nonsensical because it was mischaracterized as being the view of the left. It's not. It's just Medea Benjamin's peace-activist side coming out. The views she expresses on Ukraine are not widely shared by the left.
You originally said this in Message 910:
I was trying to put out the perspective of some of those of the leftest persuasion. I was not trying to say that they are right. I do not think they are right.

But I do think their position is that the west (NATO) did take actions to provoke the paranoid Russian leadership. Which does not justify the Russian invasion.
That NATO provoked Russia is not a mainstream position of the left. The best that can be said is that some on the left see it that way.
But it is a much larger segment on the right that really sees it that way, namely the whole MAGA crowd. They're pro-Russia and anti-Ukraine and anti-NATO. Ukraine is perhaps one issue where the extreme left and extreme right can find some common ground.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 914 by Minnemooseus, posted 03-09-2023 10:19 PM Minnemooseus has not replied

  
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