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Author Topic:   The War in Europe
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 6828
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 826 of 878 (895047)
06-06-2022 4:01 PM
Reply to: Message 825 by ringo
06-06-2022 12:39 PM


The News
I do BBC, PBS, and yes I admit some CNN, for most TV news. During the day as I peruse these haunts I usually have Comet TV with the likes of Bradbury Theater or The Outer Limits on in the background.
Though I know of some that absorb their news from the twilight trance of shared universal consciousness they experience before waking from an afternoon nap, I've seldom found such news comforting so I ignore it.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 825 by ringo, posted 06-06-2022 12:39 PM ringo has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 16055
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 827 of 878 (895066)
06-07-2022 11:11 AM
Reply to: Message 823 by ringo
06-06-2022 12:17 PM


Re: How seriously are we taking what Putin says these days?
I usually watch either BBC or Al Jazeera for s different perspective. CBS News is OK too.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 823 by ringo, posted 06-06-2022 12:17 PM ringo has seen this message but not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 20948
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.1


(4)
Message 828 of 878 (895067)
06-07-2022 11:40 AM


What the hell kind of crazy war is this?
We've been hearing this for a few days, but I finally have to comment. This is from today's Washington Post:
quote
The Kremlin has warned against equipping Kyiv with long-range weapons. Over the weekend, Russian President Vladimir Putin threatened a wider campaign of shelling in response, even as he dismissed their efficacy. Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov alleged that Ukraine would use the systems to strike targets inside Russia, though the Biden administration has said Kyiv agreed to use the weapons only within its territory.
What kind of crazy war is it where the attackee is not allowed to attack the attacker? This is insane. How can a country deter a belligerent if the belligerent never has to worry about suffering the same consequences of war as the country they're attacking?
We're just not serious about this war. We're not listening to the late Colin Powell who declared that in any war you must go in with overwhelming force to win as quickly as possible, because war is hell, and prolonging it into a long painful slog of daily death and destruction for years is evil. What we're doing is evil.
We should immediately send the 60 requested launchers to Ukraine and begin to end this thing. And Ukraine, with both our blessing and encouragement (as opposed to the incredibly wimpy "don't make Russia mad" approach), should start attacking Russian production facilities, supply lines, troop movements, and yes, cities.
I don't understand the reluctance to send the requested rocket launchers. What if Ukraine is wrong or lying and they don't really need that many launchers. What is the worst that could happen? Are any of the negative consequences worse than Ukraine falling to Russia?
But what if Ukraine is right that they need those launchers else they'll lose the war. The negative consequences of Ukraine losing the war are severe. Even if they just lose their eastern half, the consequences are still severe because the east is resource rich and will make Russia more powerful, which is the opposite of our stated goal to make Russia weaker. And Russia will continue through both political intrigue and military force to try to take over Ukraine.
Putin must get a real kick out of how he hardly has to do anything to get the west to tie its own hands behind its back. I haven't said this in a while in this thread, but it's time to say it again. This is appeasement just like before WWII where no one wanted to rile Hitler for fear he might start a war.
--Percy
PS: I don't think I've mentioned this yet, but we're moving to a new server soon because the OS on the current one is being EOL'd. I'm still on the shake down cruise, and this message is the first posted from the new server. If anyone would like to try it, the IP address is 66.148.122.44. It's http, not https, because I haven't added the SSL/TLS certificates yet.
Of course, if this doesn't work no one will see this.

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8576
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 829 of 878 (895108)
06-08-2022 9:59 AM


I see that Putin's de-Nazification of Ukraine involves threatening Jews in Russia.
Moscow’s Chief Rabbi flees ‘after pressure from Kremlin to support Ukraine war’

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


  
coffee_addict
Member
Posts: 3645
From: Indianapolis, IN
Joined: 03-29-2004


Message 830 of 878 (895112)
06-08-2022 10:36 AM


Ok, as terrible as this sounds, I'm glad that the war is so far contained in Ukraine. I live just outside a major metropolitan area (aka primary ICBM target). If the shit hits the fan, I will be blind and horribly burnt and will be in agony for days before I die. Not looking forward to that at all.

Replies to this message:
 Message 831 by ringo, posted 06-08-2022 12:44 PM coffee_addict has not replied

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19720
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 831 of 878 (895132)
06-08-2022 12:44 PM
Reply to: Message 830 by coffee_addict
06-08-2022 10:36 AM


coffee_addict writes:
I live just outside a major metropolitan area (aka primary ICBM target).
I live in the middle of nowhere - but due north of the air base at Minot, North Dakota (we used to watch the contrails of the B-52s heading north to Russia) and downwind of the missile base at Malmstrom Montana.
There's nowhere to hide.

"I call that bold talk for a one-eyed fat man!"
-- Lucky Ned Pepper

This message is a reply to:
 Message 830 by coffee_addict, posted 06-08-2022 10:36 AM coffee_addict has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8576
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.9


(1)
Message 832 of 878 (895135)
06-08-2022 1:22 PM
Reply to: Message 821 by Percy
06-06-2022 9:36 AM


Re: How seriously are we taking what Putin says these days?
I'm hoping that the looming global food shortages are going to force the West to break the blockade of Ukrainian ports. Doing that would change the game but so far the West is shying away from making that commitment feeling that that could be a declaration of war.
The annoying thing is that if they gave more weapons faster, Ukraine could stop the Russians dead and even push them back.
There's some pieces of this jigsaw that we don't know about.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 821 by Percy, posted 06-06-2022 9:36 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 833 by vimesey, posted 06-09-2022 4:30 AM Tangle has not replied
 Message 834 by Phat, posted 06-10-2022 5:29 AM Tangle has not replied
 Message 835 by Phat, posted 06-10-2022 8:48 AM Tangle has not replied

  
vimesey
Member
Posts: 1329
From: Birmingham, England
Joined: 09-21-2011
Member Rating: 4.0


(2)
Message 833 of 878 (895150)
06-09-2022 4:30 AM
Reply to: Message 832 by Tangle
06-08-2022 1:22 PM


Re: How seriously are we taking what Putin says these days?
There's some pieces of this jigsaw that we don't know about.
I've been a commercial lawyer for over 30 years now, and in that time I've had a bit of exposure to the vile world of mega wealth and power. What goes on there is complex, revolting and without any degree of humanity. People only make it into that world if they are bereft of kindness and decency. Ultimately, it's about wealth and privilege and the desire for power. That is a complex and impenetrable web of pulleys and levers.
Sadly, no revolution ever gets rid of that - it just replaces one group of dictators with another group of dictators, pulling the same pulleys and levers.

Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 832 by Tangle, posted 06-08-2022 1:22 PM Tangle has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 16055
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 834 of 878 (895163)
06-10-2022 5:29 AM
Reply to: Message 832 by Tangle
06-08-2022 1:22 PM


Re: How seriously are we taking what Putin says these days?
tangle writes:
There's some pieces of this jigsaw that we don't know about
From day one i saw in Putins mind a giant global chess move to seize Ukraines resources. He could care less about the people. He is fighting a war of the future that none of us want... scramble for food.. And China will buy it.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 832 by Tangle, posted 06-08-2022 1:22 PM Tangle has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 836 by ringo, posted 06-10-2022 11:54 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 16055
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 835 of 878 (895164)
06-10-2022 8:48 AM
Reply to: Message 832 by Tangle
06-08-2022 1:22 PM


Re: How seriously are we taking what Putin says these days?
tangle writes:
There's some pieces of this jigsaw that we don't know about
From day one i saw in Putins mind a giant global chess move to seize Ukraines resources. He could care less about the people. He is fighting a war of the future that none of us want... scramble for food.. And China will buy it.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 832 by Tangle, posted 06-08-2022 1:22 PM Tangle has not replied

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19720
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 836 of 878 (895168)
06-10-2022 11:54 AM
Reply to: Message 834 by Phat
06-10-2022 5:29 AM


Re: How seriously are we taking what Putin says these days?
Phat writes:
He is fighting a war of the future that none of us want... scramble for food..
He's fighting a war of the past.
With today's technology, war requires a lot of resources. Trying to gain resources by war is futile.

"I call that bold talk for a one-eyed fat man!"
-- Lucky Ned Pepper

This message is a reply to:
 Message 834 by Phat, posted 06-10-2022 5:29 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 837 by Phat, posted 06-10-2022 6:14 PM ringo has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 16055
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 837 of 878 (895173)
06-10-2022 6:14 PM
Reply to: Message 836 by ringo
06-10-2022 11:54 AM


Re: How seriously are we taking what Putin says these days?
The past is the future. Remember the quote about those not remembering the mistakes
Of the past being condemned to repeat history?

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 836 by ringo, posted 06-10-2022 11:54 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 838 by ringo, posted 06-11-2022 11:43 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19720
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.8


(2)
Message 838 of 878 (895177)
06-11-2022 11:43 AM
Reply to: Message 837 by Phat
06-10-2022 6:14 PM


Re: How seriously are we taking what Putin says these days?
Phat writes:
Remember the quote about those not remembering the mistakes
Of the past being condemned to repeat history?
That's what I'm saying: Putin is fighting the wars of the past, when armies foraged as they went, when wooden sailing ships could stop anywhere for frsh water and provisions and for repairs.
Today's armies need a vast infrastructure of logistics. You can't rely on local gas stations to fuel your tanks or local farmers to feed your troops.
Gaining anything material through warfare is a thing of the past. Putin might win control of Ukraine but he can never get back the resources he has already squandered.

"I call that bold talk for a one-eyed fat man!"
-- Lucky Ned Pepper

This message is a reply to:
 Message 837 by Phat, posted 06-10-2022 6:14 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 20948
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 839 of 878 (895600)
07-07-2022 2:00 PM


The War Drags On
This thread hasn't been active in a while, so I thought I'd post a short note on the status of the war in Ukraine.
Sanctions have not yet brought Russia to its knees, but any minute now.
Russian military incompetence has not yet ended the war, but their luck can't hold out much longer.
The West continues to ignore the Russian nuclear threat by providing increasing amounts of aid and assistance to Ukraine, but they've got to come to their senses soon.
Russia knows that invading a NATO country would mean its end, so the panicked alarms of bordering NATO countries can be ignored.
--Percy

Replies to this message:
 Message 840 by Tangle, posted 07-07-2022 5:05 PM Percy has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8576
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 840 of 878 (895604)
07-07-2022 5:05 PM
Reply to: Message 839 by Percy
07-07-2022 2:00 PM


Re: The War Drags On
Percy writes:
Sanctions have not yet brought Russia to its knees, but any minute now.
Sanctions take years.
Russian military incompetence has not yet ended the war, but their luck can't hold out much longer.
Their ineptitude in failing to take the whole country in a few weeks means that this will now go on for many years.
The West continues to ignore the Russian nuclear threat by providing increasing amounts of aid and assistance to Ukraine, but they've got to come to their senses soon.
No idea what this means, the nuclear threat has always been there and still is.
Russia knows that invading a NATO country would mean its end, so the panicked alarms of bordering NATO countries can be ignored.
Ditto above.
Meanwhile, Russia is now a pariah, it's economy is being comprehensively trashed and the West is more organised then it ever was.
What else were you expecting? Real politic tends be tricky.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 839 by Percy, posted 07-07-2022 2:00 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 841 by dwise1, posted 07-07-2022 5:43 PM Tangle has replied
 Message 843 by Percy, posted 07-08-2022 10:57 AM Tangle has replied

  
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