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Author Topic:   Coffee House Musings on Creationist Topic Proposals
Dredge
Member
Posts: 1672
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 781 of 801 (897023)
08-28-2022 3:45 AM
Reply to: Message 780 by AZPaul3
08-28-2022 1:57 AM


Re: Dredge Doesn't Think
Thank you for your concern and your kind advice. Much appreciated. You're such a good friend.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 780 by AZPaul3, posted 08-28-2022 1:57 AM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 782 by AZPaul3, posted 08-28-2022 3:47 AM Dredge has not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 7016
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 782 of 801 (897024)
08-28-2022 3:47 AM
Reply to: Message 781 by Dredge
08-28-2022 3:45 AM


Re: Dredge Doesn't Think
Ain't I tho?

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 781 by Dredge, posted 08-28-2022 3:45 AM Dredge has not replied

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19989
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


(1)
Message 783 of 801 (897082)
08-29-2022 12:41 PM
Reply to: Message 780 by AZPaul3
08-28-2022 1:57 AM


Re: Dredge Doesn't Think
AZPaul3 writes:
those god-meat crackers are not good for you. They screw up your brain
BSE!

"Oh no, They've gone and named my home St. Petersburg.
What's going on? Where are all the friends I had?
It's all wrong, I'm feeling lost like I just don't belong.
Give me back, give me back my Leningrad."
-- Leningrad Cowboys

This message is a reply to:
 Message 780 by AZPaul3, posted 08-28-2022 1:57 AM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 784 by AZPaul3, posted 08-29-2022 2:31 PM ringo has seen this message but not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 7016
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.0


(2)
Message 784 of 801 (897114)
08-29-2022 2:31 PM
Reply to: Message 783 by ringo
08-29-2022 12:41 PM


Re: Dredge Doesn't Think
He thinks like a cow anyway, so it fits.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 783 by ringo, posted 08-29-2022 12:41 PM ringo has seen this message but not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 8585
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.4


(3)
Message 785 of 801 (897166)
08-30-2022 11:30 AM
Reply to: Message 744 by Dredge
08-24-2022 9:53 PM


Re: Dredge thinks not knowing everything is not knowing anything
Dredge writes:
No contradiction. According to taxonomy and physiology, humans are obviously more closely "related" to other mammals than they are to
non-mammals like mollusks and fish ... regardless of being "related" according to the theory of UCD.
ID/creationists still can't seem to wrap their heads around the completely non-necessity of phylogenies for functional organisms.
If ID/creationism is true, why couldn't chickens and humans have nearly identical insulin and insulin receptor genes while humans and pigs have very different insulin genes? Or why couldn't pigs have an entirely different way of regulating blood sugar other than insulin since they were created separately from humans? There is absolutely no biological reason why we should see more similar insulin genes between humans and pigs than between humans and chickens OTHER THAN SHARED ANCESTRY AND EVOLUTION. The only explanation that will necessarily produce the nested hierarchy that we observe is shared ancestry and evolution. There is no reason why we would expect this pattern from ID/creationism.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 744 by Dredge, posted 08-24-2022 9:53 PM Dredge has not replied

  
Dredge
Member
Posts: 1672
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 786 of 801 (897196)
08-31-2022 12:26 AM
Reply to: Message 750 by Tanypteryx
08-25-2022 12:03 AM


Re: Dredge thinks not knowing everything is not knowing anything
Tanypteryx writes:
And there we have undisputable proof that you are just a pathetic troll
I can sort of understand why a scientist, having lost an argument to the village-idiot, would resort to pulling out the "troll" card in a desperate attempt to save face.
A drowning man clutching at straws.
All the discoveries we have made in biology, including the evolution and relatedness of life on this planet are part of our arsenals of tools that can be utilized by medical science.
It's true that "evolution" - as in, inherited traits of populations through successive generations - is indeed utilized by medical science.
As for the "relatedness of life" ... yes, but only in the sense that
there are genetic similarities between species.
But if by "relatedness of life", you mean the theory of UCD ... no, that theory is irrelevant and useless to medicine.
Interestingly, something we never see is creationism, ID, or prayer being useful tools in the medical science toolkit. Faith healers are not replacing neurosurgeons.
Interestingly, you're strawmaning again.
We are all carrying on using our knowledge to learn more new things and you have no influence over the tools we choose to use.
Medicine has learnt nothing from the theory of UCD; neither does medicine utilize UCD as a "tool" - medicine works but utilizing facts, not useless stories about the days of yore like UCD.
For some strange reason, you seem incapable of separating useful facts from a useless theory that attempts to explain why those facts exist.
It's as if, once upon a time, someone told you that "nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of UCD" and you believed it, never stopping to consider the veracity of that Darwinist doctrine.
Isn't it fascinating that even highly intelligent folks, such as scientists, are not immune from brainwashing and episodes of cognitive dissonance?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 750 by Tanypteryx, posted 08-25-2022 12:03 AM Tanypteryx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 787 by AZPaul3, posted 08-31-2022 1:42 AM Dredge has not replied
 Message 793 by ringo, posted 08-31-2022 12:08 PM Dredge has not replied
 Message 795 by Taq, posted 09-01-2022 11:37 AM Dredge has not replied
 Message 799 by Tanypteryx, posted 09-02-2022 6:18 PM Dredge has not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 7016
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 787 of 801 (897197)
08-31-2022 1:42 AM
Reply to: Message 786 by Dredge
08-31-2022 12:26 AM


Re: Dredge thinks not knowing everything is not knowing anything
I'm telling you, Altar Boy, those meat crackers screw with your mind.
As for the "relatedness of life" ... yes, but only in the sense that
there are genetic similarities between species.

But if by "relatedness of life", you mean the theory of UCD ... no, that theory is irrelevant and useless to medicine.
Now ask yourself, Dredge, why are there so many genetic similarities between very disparate species? Seems those DNA similarities would be inherited from a common ancestor.
Do you know there are genes older than your god? They have been very highly conserved over the eons of millennia. Like the genes that create and manage the krebs cycles which no life, no single cell, on this planet can live without.
The krebs cycle is life and we inherited those genes from ... guess who? The original organisms that found the original krebs cycles ... the UCA.
Now aren't you embarrassed at your lack of analytical abilities? I'm telling you, Dredge, those meat crackers are screwing with your head.
Isn't it fascinating that even highly intelligent folks, such as scientists, are not immune from brainwashing and episodes of cognitive dissonance?
When did that black kettle come in, asked the pot.

Edited by AZPaul3, : booboo


Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 786 by Dredge, posted 08-31-2022 12:26 AM Dredge has not replied

  
Dredge
Member
Posts: 1672
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 788 of 801 (897198)
08-31-2022 1:55 AM
Reply to: Message 751 by Stile
08-25-2022 8:17 AM


Re: Dredge thinks not knowing everything is not knowing anything
751/50
Dredge writes:
Which "job" in the field of medicine has been made "a lot easier" by the theory of UCD?
Stile writes:
Pretty much all of them.
But coming up with new vaccines and medicines, as already listed a few times for you, is a good one.
Please explain how the theory that all life on earth descended from a common ancestor (UCD) has contibuted to the development of a vaccines and medicines.
Dredge writes:
Evolution is defined as a change in allele frequency within a population.

So please explain how "UCD is the nail-gun of evolution".
Stile writes:
​UCD is the best tool we have for explaining the change in allele frequency within a population.
A change in allele frequency within a population is explained by mechanisms such as natural, artificial and sexual selection, mutations, genetic drift, recombination.
The theory that that all life on earth descended from a common ancestor (UCD) is not necessary to explain change in allele frequency within a population.
Please explain how UCD is necessary to explain the evolution of different beaks in Galapagos fiches, for example.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 751 by Stile, posted 08-25-2022 8:17 AM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 789 by AZPaul3, posted 08-31-2022 2:28 AM Dredge has not replied
 Message 792 by Stile, posted 08-31-2022 8:33 AM Dredge has not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 7016
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 789 of 801 (897202)
08-31-2022 2:28 AM
Reply to: Message 788 by Dredge
08-31-2022 1:55 AM


Re: Dredge thinks not knowing everything is not knowing anything
Please explain how UCD is necessary to explain the evolution of different beaks in Galapagos fiches, for example.
The UCA does not specifically explain why a certain trait appears. What UCA does, Dredge, is give us the ability to understand HOW it happened. The same ingredients are necessary, and the understanding of how those ingredients work together starts with UCA.
This information is all available for anyone to study and learn.
Why do you not? Are evolution, the UCA, whale tails that much of a threat to your existence? Why do you pursue these lines of BS? Are you just an ignorant catholic or is trolling meeting some deep psychological need in your meat-cracker rattled brain?

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 788 by Dredge, posted 08-31-2022 1:55 AM Dredge has not replied

  
Dredge
Member
Posts: 1672
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 790 of 801 (897204)
08-31-2022 6:54 AM
Reply to: Message 752 by ringo
08-25-2022 11:41 AM


Re: Dredge thinks not knowing everything is not knowing anything
Dredge writes:
How does denying the theory of universal common descent prevent "useful medical research"?
ringo writes:
It doesn't matter "how".
It does matter "how". In Message 736 you claimed that "Creationists' rejection of common descent has prevented them from doing any useful medical research."
So please cite an example of how creationists' rejection of the theory of UCD "prevented them from doing any useful medical research" ... lest your claim be filed under "bullshit".
The fact is that creationists DON'T do any useful medical research.
If you think it isn't because they deny science, go ahead and propose an alternative reason.
You're strawmaning. Whether creationists have done any useful medical research or not is irrelevant to the question of whether or not UCD has proven useful in medicine.
Dredge writes:
I don't recall denying universal common descent. My position is, I neither deny UCD nor accept it.
You might as well say you neither deny gravity nor accept it.
More strawmaning.
It's a foolish position to take. You are not educated enough to question science
No matter the level of education, no one can prove/ demonstrate/confirm that UCD is a fact ... which sounds like a perfectly good reason to neither deny nor accept the theory of UCD.
Friendly Reminder: Believing that UCD is a fact doesn't make it a fact.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 752 by ringo, posted 08-25-2022 11:41 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 794 by ringo, posted 08-31-2022 12:28 PM Dredge has not replied

  
Dredge
Member
Posts: 1672
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 791 of 801 (897205)
08-31-2022 6:58 AM
Reply to: Message 773 by dwise1
08-27-2022 2:53 PM


Re: Dredge Doesn't Think
dwise1 writes:
What we expect from you is for you to put your protective helmet back on and crawl back into your crib for your mommy (or gov't designated care-giver) to keep you safe.
​You should not go out in public without adult supervision.
I learnt long ago to never ho out in public without adult supevision ... and I always wear my protective helmet.
(Btw, how did you know that I have to wear a protective helmet?)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 773 by dwise1, posted 08-27-2022 2:53 PM dwise1 has not replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4130
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 4.4


Message 792 of 801 (897208)
08-31-2022 8:33 AM
Reply to: Message 788 by Dredge
08-31-2022 1:55 AM


Re: Dredge thinks not knowing everything is not knowing anything
Dredge writes:
Please explain how the theory that all life on earth descended from a common ancestor (UCD) has contibuted to the development of a vaccines and medicines.
Understanding how viruses evolve and how they affect humans and other species (due to UCD) leads to knowledge that guides us into efficiently creating vaccines and medicines.
A change in allele frequency within a population is explained by mechanisms such as natural, artificial and sexual selection, mutations, genetic drift, recombination.
Exactly: UCD.
The theory that that all life on earth descended from a common ancestor (UCD) is not necessary to explain change in allele frequency within a population.
Of course it is. Without UCD, changed in allele frequencies would not happen. Why would they change if they didn't mutate from their ancestors during reproduction?
When everyone changes from their ancestors... and it all follows back... it all comes down to UCD. It's all part of the same theory.
Please explain how UCD is necessary to explain the evolution of different beaks in Galapagos fiches, for example.
Different beaks in Galapagos finches wouldn't exist if it weren't for UCD... the fact that living creatures evolve from their ancestors and that we're all related (some more so than others.)
What other theory describes such evolution? Only UCD.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 788 by Dredge, posted 08-31-2022 1:55 AM Dredge has not replied

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19989
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 793 of 801 (897217)
08-31-2022 12:08 PM
Reply to: Message 786 by Dredge
08-31-2022 12:26 AM


Re: Dredge thinks not knowing everything is not knowing anything
Dredge writes:
But if by "relatedness of life", you mean the theory of UCD ... no, that theory is irrelevant and useless to medicine.
How would the village idiot know that? Show us a dozen examples of medical researchers telling us that.
Dredge writes:
For some strange reason, you seem incapable of separating useful facts from a useless theory that attempts to explain why those facts exist.
You seem to be incapable of understanding that we have a vast network of facts, all inter-connected. You can't accept one from here and one from there and reject some others that you don't like. If A is connected to B and B is connected to C and so on down the line, then you can't claim that A is not connected to Z.

"Oh no, They've gone and named my home St. Petersburg.
What's going on? Where are all the friends I had?
It's all wrong, I'm feeling lost like I just don't belong.
Give me back, give me back my Leningrad."
-- Leningrad Cowboys

This message is a reply to:
 Message 786 by Dredge, posted 08-31-2022 12:26 AM Dredge has not replied

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19989
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 794 of 801 (897218)
08-31-2022 12:28 PM
Reply to: Message 790 by Dredge
08-31-2022 6:54 AM


Re: Dredge thinks not knowing everything is not knowing anything
Dredge writes:
So please cite an example of how creationists' rejection of the theory of UCD "prevented them from doing any useful medical research" ...
Been there; done that. Creationists have not produced any vaccines. It doesn't matter "why" they haven't. All that matters is results. They have failed to produce any medical advances because they reject science. It doesn't even matter what science they reject. Rejecting ANY science will always be a stumbling block for them.
Dredge writes:
... lest your claim be filed under "bullshit".
I'm not worried about that. I couldn't care less where YOU file it, Mr. Bullshit.
Dredge writes:
Whether creationists have done any useful medical research or not is irrelevant to the question of whether or not UCD has proven useful in medicine.
And the fact that flat-earthers have never walked on the moon has nothing to do with their rejection of science? There seems to be a gap (i.e. a vast gaping chasm) in your logic.
Dredge writes:
No matter the level of education, no one can prove/ demonstrate/confirm that UCD is a fact ... which sounds like a perfectly good reason to neither deny nor accept the theory of UCD.
But it HAS been demonstrated/confirmed to the satisfaction of anybody who is intelligent enough to understand. If one dimwit (you) is too dopey to understand, that doesn't demolish the understanding of everybody else.
Dredge writes:
Believing that UCD is a fact doesn't make it a fact.
There's no belief involved.

"Oh no, They've gone and named my home St. Petersburg.
What's going on? Where are all the friends I had?
It's all wrong, I'm feeling lost like I just don't belong.
Give me back, give me back my Leningrad."
-- Leningrad Cowboys

This message is a reply to:
 Message 790 by Dredge, posted 08-31-2022 6:54 AM Dredge has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 8585
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.4


(2)
Message 795 of 801 (897263)
09-01-2022 11:37 AM
Reply to: Message 786 by Dredge
08-31-2022 12:26 AM


Re: Dredge thinks not knowing everything is not knowing anything
Dredge writes:
But if by "relatedness of life", you mean the theory of UCD ... no, that theory is irrelevant and useless to medicine.
Wrong.
quote:
The evolutionary nature of diseases requires that their omics be analyzed by evolution-compatible analytical tools such as parsimony phylogenetics in order to reveal common mutations and pathways’ modifications. Since the heterogeneity of the omics data renders some analytical tools such as phenetic clustering and Bayesian likelihood inefficient, a parsimony phylogenetic paradigm seems to connect between the omics and medicine. It offers a seamless, dynamic, predictive, and multidimensional analytical approach that reveals biological classes, and disease ontogenies; its analysis can be translated into practice for early detection, diagnosis, biomarker identification, prognosis, and assessment of treatment. Parsimony phylogenetics identifies classes of specimens, the clades, by their shared derived expressions, the synapomorphies, which are also the potential biomarkers for the classes that they delimit. Synapomorphies are determined through polarity assessment (ancestral vs. derived) of m/z or gene-expression values and parsimony analysis; this process also permits intra and interplatform comparability and produces higher concordance between platforms. Furthermore, major trends in the data are also interpreted from the graphical representation of the data as a tree diagram termed cladogram; it depicts directionality of change, identifies the transitional patterns from healthy to diseased, and can be developed into a predictive tool for early detection.
Evolutionary medicine: A meaningful connection between omics, disease, and treatment

quote:
Plants have been a source of medicines in human cultures for millennia. The past decade has seen a decline in plant-derived medicines due to the time-consuming nature of screening for biological activity and a narrow focus on individual candidate plant taxa. A phylogenetically informed approach can be both more comprehensive in taxonomic scope and more systematic, because it allows identification of evolutionary lineages with higher incidence of medicinal activity. For these reasons, phylogenetics is being increasingly applied to the identification of novel botanic sources of medicinal compounds.
Frontiers | Combining Evolutionary Inference and Metabolomics to Identify Plants With Medicinal Potential
quote:
When viewed from the perspective of time, human genetic disorders give new insights into their etiology and evolution. Here, we have correlated a specific set of Alu repetitive DNA elements, known to be the basis of certain genetic defects, with their phylogenetic roots in primate evolution. From a differential distribution of Alu repeats among primate species, we identify the phylogenetic roots of three human genetic diseases involving the LPL, ApoB, and HPRT genes. The different phylogenetic age of these genetic disorders could explain the different susceptibility of various primate species to genetic diseases. Our results show that LPL deficiency is the oldest and should affect humans, apes, and monkeys. ApoB deficiency should affect humans and great apes, while a disorder in the HPRT gene (leading to the Lesch-Nyhan syndrome) is unique to human, chimpanzee, and gorilla. Similar results can be obtained for cancer. We submit that de novo transpositions of Alu elements, and saltatory appearances of Alu-mediated genetic disorders, represent singularities, places where behavior changes suddenly. Alus' propensity to spread, not only increased the regulatory and developmental complexity of the primate genome, it also increased its instability and susceptibility to genetic defects and cancer. The dynamic spread not only provided markers of primate phylogeny, it must have actively shaped the course of that phylogeny.
Just a moment...
quote:
In this study, we have used genes predicted from the completed mouse, rat and human genomes, and a manually validated set of human disease genes. Our aims were three-fold. Firstly, we sought to determine whether human disease genes are collectively distinguishable, with respect to evolutionary conservation and evolutionary rates, from non-disease genes. Then we investigated whether genes ascribed to different pathophysiological systems exhibit significant differences in evolutionary rates. The results promise to be relevant for the consideration of different types of animal models utilized to investigate the mechanisms of human disease.
Evolutionary conservation and selection of human disease gene orthologs in the rat and mouse genomes

Edited by Taq, .


This message is a reply to:
 Message 786 by Dredge, posted 08-31-2022 12:26 AM Dredge has not replied

  
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