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Author Topic:   Coffee House Musings on Creationist Topic Proposals
Tangle
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Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(2)
Message 183 of 1429 (895012)
06-06-2022 3:11 AM
Reply to: Message 180 by marc9000
06-05-2022 8:09 PM


marc writes:
You'll find them at Ken Ham's Creation Museum and Answers In Genesis website. A lot of reading there.
I'd call that fake science but I'm afraid it doesn't even qualify for that epithet. It's just pure fiction. It doesn't stand up to the most cursory of glances. If it did, we'd call it science and it would be in the world's textbooks. Not in a tiny little corner of Christian nutterland.
Yes I've been seeing yours from a hundred or so posters at this site for about 13 years now. They all have one thing in common, they disregard everything except atheism, everything except rearrangement and time, the only things about science the human mind can understand.
You don't seem to have learned anything in all that time which I guess is an achievement in itself.
This science = atheism thing though must be really hard to square in even an addled mind. It's just wrong isn't it? Atheism is a minority interest, most scientists - and that includes people working directly in areas such a evolutionary biology - are not atheists. So how does that work out for you?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 180 by marc9000, posted 06-05-2022 8:09 PM marc9000 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 235 by Dredge, posted 06-23-2022 4:26 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 186 of 1429 (895289)
06-20-2022 5:59 PM
Reply to: Message 184 by Dredge
06-20-2022 1:37 PM


Re: Dredge Doesn't Think
Dredge writes:
I'm not disputing the evidence that suggests evolution has occurred.
You inserted the word 'suggests'. Maybe I'm being pedantic, but I asked [...] "whether you accept the evidence that evolution has happened or not," not whether it suggests it.
You're equivocating aren't you?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 184 by Dredge, posted 06-20-2022 1:37 PM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 233 by Dredge, posted 06-23-2022 4:04 PM Tangle has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 203 of 1429 (895313)
06-21-2022 4:12 PM
Reply to: Message 190 by Dredge
06-21-2022 9:34 AM


Re: Dredge Doesn't Think
Dredge writes:
No kidding! Your reluctance to discuss HOW novel body plans and organs evolve is perfectly understandable - why would you want to discuss things you know nothing about? All that would do is demonstrate that you don't know how evolution works.
Your refusal to say whether you accept that evolution has happened means that's there's little point discussing how it happened. You're just yet another fake Christian, boring troll.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 190 by Dredge, posted 06-21-2022 9:34 AM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 280 by Dredge, posted 07-09-2022 11:04 PM Tangle has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 213 of 1429 (895328)
06-22-2022 12:00 PM


He says that wants to know how an organ evolved. But of course he doesn't, he wants to troll, in one sentence posts.
If he wanted to see the evidence for how an organ evolved he's do what a reasonable person would do, he'd search creditable science sites and read them. And then maybe ask questions about what he didn't understand. But he won't do that because that's not why he's here.
There are many organs that have been researched for their evolutionary development, the mammalian ear is an obvious one. If he was actually interested he could have found this like I did in 30 seconds. But he's not interested - he just wants to troll.
Abstract
Having three ossicles in the middle ear is one of the defining features of mammals. All reptiles and birds have only one middle ear ossicle, the stapes or columella. How these two additional ossicles came to reside and function in the middle ear of mammals has been studied for the last 200 years and represents one of the classic example of how structures can change during evolution to function in new and novel ways. From fossil data, comparative anatomy and developmental biology it is now clear that the two new bones in the mammalian middle ear, the malleus and incus, are homologous to the quadrate and articular, which form the articulation for the upper and lower jaws in non-mammalian jawed vertebrates. The incorporation of the primary jaw joint into the mammalian middle ear was only possible due to the evolution of a new way to articulate the upper and lower jaws, with the formation of the dentary-squamosal joint, or TMJ in humans. The evolution of the three-ossicle ear in mammals is thus intricately connected with the evolution of a novel jaw joint, the two structures evolving together to create the distinctive mammalian skull.
Evolution of the mammalian middle ear and jaw: adaptations and novel structures

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


Replies to this message:
 Message 290 by Dredge, posted 07-10-2022 6:37 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(4)
Message 237 of 1429 (895363)
06-23-2022 5:36 PM
Reply to: Message 235 by Dredge
06-23-2022 4:26 PM


Dredge writes:
The late science historian and atheist, Dr. William Provine, said,
"Evolution is the greatest engine of atheism ever invented".
Never heard of him but he's at least half right. Evolution was not invented, it was discovered. Like we discovered the moons of Jupiter - we didn't invent them, we finally did enough work and got clever enough to find them.
But sure, once we'd discovered that species were not immutable as the Christian teachings had it, there was reason to doubt the Christian teachings. Just like when we found that there was institutionally supported kiddy-fiddling in the Catholice Church there was reason to believe that maybe it was run by a bunch of cunts.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 235 by Dredge, posted 06-23-2022 4:26 PM Dredge has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(3)
Message 262 of 1429 (895428)
06-27-2022 3:24 AM
Reply to: Message 255 by Dredge
06-26-2022 4:24 PM


Re: Dredge thinks not knowing everything is not knowing anything
Dredge writes:
I think it's fair to say atheist Darwinists believe that the history of life on earth proceeded according to ToE ... ie, they believe ToE is a fact.
What would be fair to say is that evolutionary biologists (and a few billion other people of all religious beliefs and none) accept evolution as a fact. Because it is.
The ToE though, is not a fact in scientific terms, it has a higher status than a simple fact.
“[…] a scientific theory is the framework for observations and facts. Theories may change, or the way that they are interpreted may change, but the facts themselves don't change. "For example, we have ample evidence of traits in populations becoming more or less common over time (evolution), so evolution is a fact, but the overarching theories about evolution, the way that we think all of the facts go together might change as new observations of evolution are made,"
What Is a Scientific Theory?
Neither atheism nor belief has any application in science. And that's a fact.

Edited by Tangle, .


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 255 by Dredge, posted 06-26-2022 4:24 PM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 263 by Percy, posted 06-27-2022 9:31 AM Tangle has replied
 Message 374 by Dredge, posted 07-22-2022 6:42 AM Tangle has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(2)
Message 265 of 1429 (895433)
06-27-2022 11:43 AM
Reply to: Message 263 by Percy
06-27-2022 9:31 AM


Re: Facts are not Forever
I think we're just entering the twilight zone with this kind of linguistic juggling. At any point in time we can only work with the 'facts' as we know them and some facts are very, very solid - within the norms of everyday life, apples fall to the ground - fact.
Reclassifying stuff and changing nomenclature doesn't change anything about the stuff itself, just the box we want to put it in. We're refining the information we have about stuff we're naming is all.
btw I just love this and needs to be watched at least every six months.
Science is fucking cool.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 263 by Percy, posted 06-27-2022 9:31 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 376 by Dredge, posted 07-22-2022 6:55 AM Tangle has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 293 of 1429 (895655)
07-10-2022 7:01 AM
Reply to: Message 290 by Dredge
07-10-2022 6:37 AM


Dredge writes:
That paper discusses some of the alleged evolutionary steps involved, but doesn't discuss what caused those steps (which is the crux of my argument). The closest it gets is a big guess about what may have given rise to the development of a double jaw joint.

The paper proposes an evolutionary pathway, not what caused that evolution pathway. In other words, it doesn't demonstrate a knowledge of how evolution works.

Sorry - nice try, but no cigar.
At the risk of endless repetition, we've agreed with you many times now that we don't have the detailed microbiology of each evolutionary change that happened millions of years ago. If that's what you're looking for, then you're going to be terribly disappointed.
That's sad for you but science doesn't need what you insist on having to know that the middle ear evolved - we have the fossils to prove it.
By all means carry on trolling, it seems to make you feel important. But it actually makes you look really stupid. (I realise that you don't care about that.)

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 290 by Dredge, posted 07-10-2022 6:37 AM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 296 by Percy, posted 07-10-2022 9:13 AM Tangle has not replied
 Message 422 by Dredge, posted 07-30-2022 3:32 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 369 of 1429 (895845)
07-22-2022 2:20 AM
Reply to: Message 368 by dwise1
07-22-2022 12:32 AM


Re: It's Creationism That Makes Creationists Evil
Pope John Paul II was also an “evolutionist”, I guess both he and Dredge are therefore Catholic atheists.
“ The Roman Catholic Church has long accepted – or at least not objected to – evolutionary theory. Pope Francis is not the first pontiff to publicly affirm that evolution is compatible with church teachings. In 1950, in the encyclical “Humani Generis,” Pope Pius XII said that Catholic teachings on creation could coexist with evolutionary theory. Pope John Paul II went a bit further in 1996, calling evolution “more than a hypothesis.”
5 facts about evolution and religion

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 368 by dwise1, posted 07-22-2022 12:32 AM dwise1 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 512 by Dredge, posted 08-03-2022 8:42 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 403 of 1429 (895885)
07-23-2022 9:21 AM
Reply to: Message 402 by Percy
07-23-2022 8:47 AM


Re: It's Creationism That Makes Creationists Evil
In other words, he's a troll and we carry on feeding him.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 402 by Percy, posted 07-23-2022 8:47 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 404 by Percy, posted 07-23-2022 1:07 PM Tangle has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 430 of 1429 (896069)
07-30-2022 7:40 PM
Reply to: Message 422 by Dredge
07-30-2022 3:32 PM


Dredge writes:
I'm not arguing that there is a lack of evidence for evolution
That would be rather difficult wouldn't it?
I'm arguing that it's impossible to know what caused it.
Nobody is disagreeing. Of course that's impossible to know.
The article you linked doesn't explain what caused the evolution of the middle-ear ... because no one knows.
Yup, no-one knows. Nor can we ever know. Fascinating isn't it - to make sense of it we need to form hypotheses from how we know evolution works today.
Your article is just one more example of not knowing how evolution works.
Nope, it's one more article showing that evolution happened.
If you want to discuss what we know about the process of evolution and how it would have applied to events in the far distant past we'll happily get into that.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 422 by Dredge, posted 07-30-2022 3:32 PM Dredge has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 517 of 1429 (896215)
08-03-2022 9:53 AM
Reply to: Message 512 by Dredge
08-03-2022 8:42 AM


Dredge writes:
And?
And therefore "evolutionists" are not necessary atheists and that even Catholics accept the theory of evolution and are therefore "Darwinists" in your strange mind.
So let's stop lying about it eh?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 512 by Dredge, posted 08-03-2022 8:42 AM Dredge has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(2)
Message 701 of 1429 (896714)
08-17-2022 11:55 AM


Given that he was identified as a troll hundreds of post ago, why are we still feeding him?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(5)
Message 870 of 1429 (899208)
10-10-2022 12:25 PM


For god's sake. What's wrong with using google?
Snakes evolved venom fangs multiple times from wrinkles in their teeth | New Scientist

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


Replies to this message:
 Message 873 by xongsmith, posted 10-10-2022 4:48 PM Tangle has not replied
 Message 881 by AZPaul3, posted 10-11-2022 11:46 AM Tangle has not replied
 Message 882 by Dredge, posted 10-11-2022 5:59 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 883 of 1429 (899302)
10-11-2022 6:15 PM
Reply to: Message 882 by Dredge
10-11-2022 5:59 PM


Dredge writes:
It never ceases to amaze me how credulous Darwinists are. Take the article you've offered here, for example: Some space-cadet Darwinist scientists at a university concoct a weak, simplistic, far-fetched, untestable story about how hollow snake fangs might have evolved, and suddenly it's accepted as an established scientific fact by all those gullible little children out there in Darwin World. Embarrassing.
Sorry, I'm all out of food.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 882 by Dredge, posted 10-11-2022 5:59 PM Dredge has not replied

  
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