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Author Topic:   Coffee House Musings on Creationist Topic Proposals
Taq
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Posts: 10072
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.2


(3)
Message 950 of 1429 (900518)
10-28-2022 11:01 AM
Reply to: Message 948 by Dredge
10-28-2022 10:20 AM


Re: UCD evidence
Dredge writes:
If no one believed in UCD, would those genetic similarities still exist?
Again, it is the pattern of similarities that matter. Before we understood the molecular basis of heredity or shared ancestry there were already people who recognized the nested hierarchial pattern. For example, Linnaeus discovered this pattern 100 years before Darwin. The nested hierarchy is an objective fact.
quote:
Now, since the days of Linnæus this principle has been carefully followed, and it is by its aid that the tree-like system of classification has been established. No one, even long before Darwin's days, ever dreamed of doubting that this system is in reality, what it always has been in name, a natural system. What, then, is the inference we are to draw from it? An evolutionist answers, that it is just such a system as his theory of descent would lead him to expect as a natural system. For this tree-like system is as clear an expression as anything could be of the fact that all species are bound together by the ties of genetic relationship. If all species were separately created, it is almost incredible that we should everywhere observe this progressive shading off of characters common to larger groups, into more and more specialized characters distinctive only of smaller and smaller groups.
--George Romanes, "Scientific Evidences of Organic Evolution", 1882
The Project Gutenberg eBook of The Scientific Evidences of Organic Evolution, by George J. Romanes, M.A., LL.D., F.R.S.
That quote is from 1882. That's how long the evidence has been around for shared ancestry.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 948 by Dredge, posted 10-28-2022 10:20 AM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 956 by Dredge, posted 10-30-2022 10:40 PM Taq has not replied
 Message 1010 by Dredge, posted 11-04-2022 6:02 AM Taq has not replied
 Message 1011 by Dredge, posted 11-04-2022 6:03 AM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10072
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 963 of 1429 (900738)
10-31-2022 11:54 AM
Reply to: Message 955 by Dredge
10-30-2022 3:40 PM


Re: Dredge thinks not knowing everything is not knowing anything
Dredge writes:
Oh really? The following comments agree with me, but according to you, they're all false:
All of those quotes are backed by the knowledge that the similarities were produced by common ancestry and evolution. That's why those similarities are useful.
An explanation for why those genetic similarities exist (UCD) is not what makes those similarities useful to medical science.
Speaking as someone who works in biomedical research, UCD is what makes those similarities useful. Conservation of sequence is something that has become quite important in comparing animal models.
... none of which is relevant to the discussion, which is not at all concerned with evidence for the theory of UCD.
It is entirely relevant, whether you admit it or not.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 955 by Dredge, posted 10-30-2022 3:40 PM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 999 by Dredge, posted 11-03-2022 1:52 PM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10072
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.2


(3)
Message 964 of 1429 (900739)
10-31-2022 11:58 AM
Reply to: Message 959 by Dredge
10-31-2022 7:05 AM


Re: Dredge thinks not knowing everything is not knowing anything
Dredge writes:
According to Darwinist folklore, birds and fish, for example, "share common ancestry with humans", but birds and fish aren't used as models by medical science. Why not?
Zebrafish are used as models in medical science. Birds aren't often used because they are expensive to house and have longer generation times.
Why Use Zebrafish to Study Human Diseases? | NIH Intramural Research Program
Gee, might it have something to do with the fact that there are other animals more genetically, anatomically and physiologically similar to humans than birds and fish ... rats and mice, for example
The only reason that some animals are objectively more like humans than others is UCD and evolution. There is no reason why such a pattern would exist if species were created separately. It is only the nested hierarchy produced by UCD and evolution that we get these relationships.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 959 by Dredge, posted 10-31-2022 7:05 AM Dredge has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10072
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.2


(1)
Message 965 of 1429 (900741)
10-31-2022 12:02 PM
Reply to: Message 961 by Dredge
10-31-2022 10:08 AM


Re: UCD evidence
Dredge writes:
Yeah yeah, Stale ... so you keep saying. If UCD is so important to biological and medical science, why is it that you can't cite even ONE EXAMPLE of how the UCD has made a practical contribution to biological or medical science?

I'm betting you never searched papers to see if this is true?
quote:
We used a comparative genomics approach encompassing a broad phylogenetic range of animals with sequenced genomes to determine the evolutionary patterns exhibited by human genes associated with different classes of disease. Our results support previous claims that most human disease genes are of ancient origin but, more importantly, we also demonstrate that several specific disease classes have a significantly large proportion of genes that emerged relatively recently within the metazoans and/or vertebrates. An independent assessment of the synonymous to non-synonymous substitution rates of human disease genes found in mammals reveals that disease classes that arose more recently also display unexpected rates of purifying selection between their mammalian and human counterparts.
Conclusions
Our results reveal the heterogeneity underlying the evolutionary origins of (and selective pressures on) different classes of human disease genes. For example, some disease gene classes appear to be of uncommonly recent (i.e., vertebrate-specific) origin and, as a whole, have been evolving at a faster rate within mammals than the majority of disease classes having more ancient origins. The novel patterns that we have identified may provide new insight into cases where studies using traditional animal models were unable to produce results that translated to humans. Conversely, we note that the larger set of disease classes do have ancient origins, suggesting that many non-traditional animal models have the potential to be useful for studying many human disease genes. Taken together, these findings emphasize why model organism selection should be done on a disease-by-disease basis, with evolutionary profiles in mind.
Evolutionary profiling reveals the heterogeneous origins of classes of human disease genes: implications for modeling disease genetics in animals | BMC Ecology and Evolution | Full Text

This message is a reply to:
 Message 961 by Dredge, posted 10-31-2022 10:08 AM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 977 by Dredge, posted 11-01-2022 1:22 PM Taq has replied
 Message 1052 by Dredge, posted 11-05-2022 6:35 PM Taq has not replied
 Message 1067 by Dredge, posted 11-06-2022 5:59 PM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10072
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.2


(1)
Message 974 of 1429 (900851)
11-01-2022 11:25 AM
Reply to: Message 969 by Dredge
10-31-2022 6:29 PM


Re: UCD evidence
Dredge writes:
Relatedness doesn't need the theory of UCD in order to exist.
Then please tell us what pattern of similarities we should see if UCD is true if it isn't a tree-like pattern of similarities.
From where I sit, the pattern of relatedness is exactly what we would expect from UCD and evolution. Prove me wrong.
Despite all your Darwinist rhetoric, you can't cite even one example of the theory of UCD providing a practical use in biological or medical science.
I already did that.
quote:
We used a comparative genomics approach encompassing a broad phylogenetic range of animals with sequenced genomes to determine the evolutionary patterns exhibited by human genes associated with different classes of disease. Our results support previous claims that most human disease genes are of ancient origin but, more importantly, we also demonstrate that several specific disease classes have a significantly large proportion of genes that emerged relatively recently within the metazoans and/or vertebrates. An independent assessment of the synonymous to non-synonymous substitution rates of human disease genes found in mammals reveals that disease classes that arose more recently also display unexpected rates of purifying selection between their mammalian and human counterparts.

Conclusions
Our results reveal the heterogeneity underlying the evolutionary origins of (and selective pressures on) different classes of human disease genes. For example, some disease gene classes appear to be of uncommonly recent (i.e., vertebrate-specific) origin and, as a whole, have been evolving at a faster rate within mammals than the majority of disease classes having more ancient origins. The novel patterns that we have identified may provide new insight into cases where studies using traditional animal models were unable to produce results that translated to humans. Conversely, we note that the larger set of disease classes do have ancient origins, suggesting that many non-traditional animal models have the potential to be useful for studying many human disease genes. Taken together, these findings emphasize why model organism selection should be done on a disease-by-disease basis, with evolutionary profiles in mind.
Evolutionary profiling reveals the heterogeneous origins of classes of human disease genes: implications for modeling disease genetics in animals | BMC Ecology and Evolution | Full Text

This message is a reply to:
 Message 969 by Dredge, posted 10-31-2022 6:29 PM Dredge has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 975 by Theodoric, posted 11-01-2022 12:45 PM Taq has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10072
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.2


(2)
Message 983 of 1429 (900902)
11-01-2022 4:01 PM
Reply to: Message 977 by Dredge
11-01-2022 1:22 PM


Re: UCD evidence
Dredge writes:
I'll have a look at that paper later, but I'm not expecting much bcoz so far your attempts to provide a practical use for UCD have failed.
They haven't failed. Your refusal to accept facts doesn't make the facts go away.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 977 by Dredge, posted 11-01-2022 1:22 PM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 984 by Dredge, posted 11-02-2022 12:02 PM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10072
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 986 of 1429 (900927)
11-02-2022 1:20 PM
Reply to: Message 984 by Dredge
11-02-2022 12:02 PM


Re: UCD evidence
Dredge writes:
I asked you to point out in each of the four examples you provided in Message 795, which part demonstrated a practical use of UCD, but - surprise, surprise - you didn't post a reply regarding any of them.
You didn't disprove any of them. Those are four valid examples of common descent having application in medicine.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 984 by Dredge, posted 11-02-2022 12:02 PM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 989 by Dredge, posted 11-03-2022 7:24 AM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10072
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 993 of 1429 (900979)
11-03-2022 10:45 AM
Reply to: Message 989 by Dredge
11-03-2022 7:24 AM


Re: UCD evidence
Dredge writes:
I challenge you to show me one instance of how the theory of UCD has provided a practical use in medical science from any of the four examples you provided in Message 795.
I already did that in each of those messages.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 989 by Dredge, posted 11-03-2022 7:24 AM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 997 by Dredge, posted 11-03-2022 12:56 PM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10072
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 1018 of 1429 (901054)
11-04-2022 10:53 AM
Reply to: Message 1011 by Dredge
11-04-2022 6:03 AM


Re: UCD evidence
Dredge writes:
If no one believed in UCD, would those genetic similarities still exist?
Obviously, yes.
In the same way, stellar parallax would still exist if no one believed in Heliocentrism. The procession in Mercury's orbit would still exist if no one believed in Relativity.
What wouldn't exist if no one believed in UCD is an explanation as to why those genetic similarities fell into a nested hierarchy.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1011 by Dredge, posted 11-04-2022 6:03 AM Dredge has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10072
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 1019 of 1429 (901055)
11-04-2022 10:54 AM
Reply to: Message 997 by Dredge
11-03-2022 12:56 PM


Re: UCD evidence
Dredge writes:
In that case, your argument failed miserably.
Ignoring the facts won't make them go away.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 997 by Dredge, posted 11-03-2022 12:56 PM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1025 by Dredge, posted 11-04-2022 11:37 AM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10072
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 1020 of 1429 (901057)
11-04-2022 11:00 AM
Reply to: Message 999 by Dredge
11-03-2022 1:52 PM


Re: Dredge thinks not knowing everything is not knowing anything
Dredge writes:
The similarities would exist and be useful even if everyone believed they were produced by pixies or aliens or fairies waving their wands.
But why would those similarities produce a nested hierarchy if pixies, aliens, or fairies produced them?
We can observe UCD and evolution in action in both the lab and in the wild. We observe that those mechanisms produce a nested hierarchy. A nested hierarchy is exactly what we would expect from this process, and that is exactly what we see in nature. There is no other explanation that specifically predicts that we should see this pattern of genetic similarities.
quote:
Now, since the days of Linnæus this principle has been carefully followed, and it is by its aid that the tree-like system of classification has been established. No one, even long before Darwin's days, ever dreamed of doubting that this system is in reality, what it always has been in name, a natural system. What, then, is the inference we are to draw from it? An evolutionist answers, that it is just such a system as his theory of descent would lead him to expect as a natural system. For this tree-like system is as clear an expression as anything could be of the fact that all species are bound together by the ties of genetic relationship. If all species were separately created, it is almost incredible that we should everywhere observe this progressive shading off of characters common to larger groups, into more and more specialized characters distinctive only of smaller and smaller groups. At any rate, to say the least, the law of parsimony forbids us to ascribe such effects to a supernatural cause, acting in so whimsical a manner, when the effects are precisely what we should expect to follow from the action of a highly probable natural cause.
--George Romanes, "Scientific Evidences of Organic Evolution", 1882
The Project Gutenberg eBook of The Scientific Evidences of Organic Evolution, by George J. Romanes, M.A., LL.D., F.R.S.
Repeating that Darwinist lie doesn't make it true.

The genetics similarities themselves are what makes them useful, not a theory about what produced the similarities (UCD).
False. It is the conservation of function due to UCD and evolution that makes them useful. No such expectation is expected from other proposed processes. It also allows us to find novel human features by looking for different patterns of sequence conservation.
Tell me, Einstein, did the theory of UCD create the genetic similarities between species that medical science makes use of? Or did those genetic similarities create the theory of UCD?
It's the nested hierarchy that evidences UCD, not simply genetic similarities.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 999 by Dredge, posted 11-03-2022 1:52 PM Dredge has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10072
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.2


(1)
Message 1024 of 1429 (901062)
11-04-2022 11:26 AM
Reply to: Message 1013 by Dredge
11-04-2022 9:27 AM


Re: UCD evidence
Dredge writes:
Wrong again, wrongsmith. Thousands of scientific papers begin with the Darwinist (unproven) assumption of UCD.
UCD is a conclusion based on the evidence of a nested hierarchy of similarities, a nested hierarchy that you continue to ignore.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1013 by Dredge, posted 11-04-2022 9:27 AM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1027 by Dredge, posted 11-04-2022 11:44 AM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10072
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.2


(3)
Message 1032 of 1429 (901073)
11-04-2022 11:51 AM
Reply to: Message 1025 by Dredge
11-04-2022 11:37 AM


Re: UCD evidence
Dredge writes:
Unfortunately, it's become evident that discerning "the facts" is definitely not your forté.

I recommend you seek professional help in the form of cult-deprogramming therapy.
Still not addressing the fact of the nested hierarchy of genetic similarities.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1025 by Dredge, posted 11-04-2022 11:37 AM Dredge has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10072
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 1033 of 1429 (901074)
11-04-2022 11:55 AM
Reply to: Message 1027 by Dredge
11-04-2022 11:44 AM


Re: UCD evidence
Dredge writes:
I ignore it bcoz evidence for UCD is irrelevant to my argument.
I think we already know that you consider facts to be irrelevant.
Apparently, you still don't understand how the scientific method works. We are testing the hypothesis of common descent. That hypothesis predicts that we should see a nested hierarchy of similarities. When we observe nature and see exactly what the hypothesis predicts we have a supported hypothesis. Therefore, we conclude common descent. We now have a supported theory.
That's how science works.
If you want to challenge this conclusion then you need to produce a better explanation for the nested hierarchy.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1027 by Dredge, posted 11-04-2022 11:44 AM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1036 by Dredge, posted 11-04-2022 12:27 PM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10072
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.2


(2)
Message 1039 of 1429 (901088)
11-04-2022 12:34 PM
Reply to: Message 1036 by Dredge
11-04-2022 12:27 PM


Re: UCD evidence
Dredge writes:
I'm not interested in "testing the hypothesis of common descent".
Then all you are interested in is empty rhetoric, it would appear.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1036 by Dredge, posted 11-04-2022 12:27 PM Dredge has not replied

  
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