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Author
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Topic: Coffee House Musings on Creationist Topic Proposals
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Tanypteryx
Member Posts: 4443 From: Oregon, USA Joined: 08-27-2006 Member Rating: 5.0
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Message 257 of 1429 (895420)
06-26-2022 5:27 PM
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Reply to: Message 255 by Dredge
06-26-2022 4:24 PM
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Re: Dredge thinks not knowing everything is not knowing anything
Drudge writes: I think it's fair to say atheist Darwinists believe that the history of life on earth proceeded according to ToE ... ie, they believe ToE is a fact. I wonder if any Atheist Darwinists would agree with your fairness? So, you can read the thoughts of a subset of atheists and a subset Darwinists and even better, you know what they believe? How many of these guys are there? Got any names?
Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty PythonOne important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 255 by Dredge, posted 06-26-2022 4:24 PM | | Dredge has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 349 by Dredge, posted 07-21-2022 11:33 AM | | Tanypteryx has not replied |
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Tanypteryx
Member Posts: 4443 From: Oregon, USA Joined: 08-27-2006 Member Rating: 5.0
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Message 269 of 1429 (895567)
07-06-2022 12:10 AM
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Reply to: Message 268 by Dredge
07-05-2022 11:59 PM
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Re: Dredge thinks not knowing everything is not knowing anything
Drudge writes: 1. You don't know how evolutionary mechanisms produced an amphibian's double-circulation heart from a the single-circulation heart of a fish. 2. You don't know how evolutionary mechanisms produce a whale's blowhole and tail from a land animal. 3. In fact, you don't how evolutionary mechanisms produced any evolutionary transitions evident in the fossil record. Sure we do as we have repeatedly told you. Reproduction, nutation, selection, repeat. Descent with modification. All the evidence supports this process, but you go on and on spewing bullshit.
Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty PythonOne important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 268 by Dredge, posted 07-05-2022 11:59 PM | | Dredge has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 414 by Dredge, posted 07-30-2022 1:44 AM | | Tanypteryx has replied |
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Tanypteryx
Member Posts: 4443 From: Oregon, USA Joined: 08-27-2006 Member Rating: 5.0
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Message 277 of 1429 (895638)
07-09-2022 10:41 PM
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Reply to: Message 276 by Dredge
07-09-2022 10:25 PM
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Re: Dredge Doesn't Think
yet there are millions of Darwinists out there who believe the theory of evolution is also a fact. Actually that would be millions of creationists believe the theory of evolution is a fact. They are incorrect, just like you are incorrect.
The atheist variety are especially devoted to this theory/fact belief system. Oh really? Name one.
Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty PythonOne important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 276 by Dredge, posted 07-09-2022 10:25 PM | | Dredge has not replied |
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Tanypteryx
Member Posts: 4443 From: Oregon, USA Joined: 08-27-2006 Member Rating: 5.0
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Message 297 of 1429 (895661)
07-10-2022 10:48 AM
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Reply to: Message 287 by Dredge
07-10-2022 1:14 AM
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Re: Dredge thinks not knowing everything is not knowing anything
Dr. Gunter Bechly is one of my heroes! He has authored or co-authored more than 160 scientific publications, including a co-edited and co-authored book published by Cambridge University Press and...blah, blah, blah... Wow, I guess you've read all his papers and books. That all sounds like a publicity blurb. One thing I am sure you have noticed in his scientific writing is absolutely no mention of his interest in Intelligent Design, none, nada. I have never met Bechly, but I have worked on research projects with people who have also worked with him on projects. Many in the odonate study community were surprised when he joined the Discovery Institute, but everyone noted that he refused to discuss his views of ID with colleagues. To many, it was fairly obvious that he realized he would lose credibility if he did. I haven't followed his recent work, but what I read of his papers seemed like good science and clearly supports evolutionary history of insects. I don't know how he got involved with the religious fanatics at the Discovery Institute, but his actual scientific research doesn't seem to support anything about ID.
Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty PythonOne important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 287 by Dredge, posted 07-10-2022 1:14 AM | | Dredge has not replied |
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Tanypteryx
Member Posts: 4443 From: Oregon, USA Joined: 08-27-2006 Member Rating: 5.0
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Message 307 of 1429 (895767)
07-18-2022 8:02 PM
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Reply to: Message 306 by Dredge
07-18-2022 5:35 PM
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Re: Dredge Doesn't Think
So, do you have anything newer than 22 years ago? As sequencing has gotten cheaper and faster we have seen much better protocols and standards for specific regions of the genome to be compared to give useful phylogenetic trees. At the same time there have been ongoing revisions in morphological based taxonomy and this has been a continuous process for as long as people have been doing taxonomy. I don't know if the papers you quote-mined had any part, but critiques and reviews of existing processes in molecular and morphological phylogeny descriptions and comparisons as they developed helped refine and improve this field. Today, in 2022, sequencing has advanced so far that whole genome sequencing is becoming routine and the software algorithms for comparing genomes is keeping pace. Contrary to what you are implying, modern morphology and genetics has evolved into a mature science and our understanding of the evolutionary relationships of living and recently extinct species on this planet is expanding at an increasing rate. It turns out that the genetic history of a species is written in their genome. This is a paper in my field as an example of morphology and genetics working together to produce a new refined phylogeny:
Phylogenetic relationships of North American Gomphidae and their close relatives, Syst Entomol. 2017 April ; 42(2): 347–358. doi:10.1111/syen.12218. JESSICA L. WARE, ERIK PILGRIM, MICHAEL L. MAY, THOMAS W. DONNELLY, and KENNETH TENNESSEN. Meanwhile you ID creationists have shown us absolutely nothing, not a single shred of evidence to support intentional design in biology. ABE: the 1st two authors are geneticists and the last three are morphological taxonomists. Edited by Tanypteryx, .
Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty PythonOne important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 306 by Dredge, posted 07-18-2022 5:35 PM | | Dredge has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 310 by Dredge, posted 07-19-2022 11:59 AM | | Tanypteryx has replied |
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Tanypteryx
Member Posts: 4443 From: Oregon, USA Joined: 08-27-2006 Member Rating: 5.0
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Message 309 of 1429 (895778)
07-19-2022 11:28 AM
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Reply to: Message 305 by Dredge
07-18-2022 5:29 PM
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Re: Dredge Doesn't Think
Drudge writes: the mutations involved and how artificial selection acted on beneficial mutations? Artificial selection? What the hell are you talking about? Natural selection acts on beneficial and deleterious mutations.
Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty PythonOne important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 305 by Dredge, posted 07-18-2022 5:29 PM | | Dredge has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 312 by Dredge, posted 07-19-2022 12:03 PM | | Tanypteryx has not replied |
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Tanypteryx
Member Posts: 4443 From: Oregon, USA Joined: 08-27-2006 Member Rating: 5.0
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Message 317 of 1429 (895787)
07-19-2022 1:11 PM
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Reply to: Message 310 by Dredge
07-19-2022 11:59 AM
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Re: Dredge Doesn't Think
Yep, the science of genetics was so primitive and unreliable 22 years ago that about 35 years ago, law courts worldwide began sending criminals to jail based on DNA evidence. What does this have to do with the question of morphological and genetic phylogenetic trees?
Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty PythonOne important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 310 by Dredge, posted 07-19-2022 11:59 AM | | Dredge has not replied |
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Tanypteryx
Member Posts: 4443 From: Oregon, USA Joined: 08-27-2006 Member Rating: 5.0
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Message 322 of 1429 (895792)
07-19-2022 1:28 PM
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Reply to: Message 319 by Dredge
07-19-2022 1:18 PM
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Re: Dredge Doesn't Think
Drudge writes: Taq writes:
"Well, evolution is a theory. It is also a fact. And facts and theories are different things, not rungs in a hierarchy of increasing certainty. Facts are the world's data. Theories are structures of ideas that explain and interpret facts. Facts do not go away when scientists debate rival theories to explain them. Einstein's theory of gravitation replaced Newton's, but apples did not suspend themselves in mid-air, pending the outcome. And humans evolved from apelike ancestors whether they did so by Darwin's proposed mechanism or by some other, yet to be discovered." --Stephen Jay Gould, "Evolution as Fact and Theory"A fine example of a belief ("humans evolved from apelike ancestors") being passed off as a fact. A fine example of a belief ("humans evolved from apelike ancestors") being passed off as a fact. Actually it is a fine example of a fact (supported by all the evidence) being stated as a fact that is supported by all the evidence.
Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty PythonOne important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 319 by Dredge, posted 07-19-2022 1:18 PM | | Dredge has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 489 by Dredge, posted 08-02-2022 6:40 PM | | Tanypteryx has replied |
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Tanypteryx
Member Posts: 4443 From: Oregon, USA Joined: 08-27-2006 Member Rating: 5.0
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Message 329 of 1429 (895800)
07-19-2022 6:55 PM
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Reply to: Message 328 by Dredge
07-19-2022 6:48 PM
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Re: Dredge thinks not knowing everything is not knowing anything
How many times must I repeat that your explanation for the fossil record (ToE) cannot ever be verified as correct or incorrect ... and therefore doesn't qualify as knowledge? No matter how many time you are wrong, you are still always wrong.
How many times must I repeat that mere belief doesn't magically turn your explanation (ToE) into a fact?
That's why, unlike you, we rely on evidence to support our facts.
Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty PythonOne important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 328 by Dredge, posted 07-19-2022 6:48 PM | | Dredge has replied |
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Tanypteryx
Member Posts: 4443 From: Oregon, USA Joined: 08-27-2006 Member Rating: 5.0
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Message 331 of 1429 (895802)
07-19-2022 7:41 PM
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Reply to: Message 330 by Dredge
07-19-2022 7:10 PM
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Re: Dredge thinks not knowing everything is not knowing anything
Quoting passages from a fictional book by a bunch of bronze age goat herders has never been very enlightening.
Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty PythonOne important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 330 by Dredge, posted 07-19-2022 7:10 PM | | Dredge has not replied |
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Tanypteryx
Member Posts: 4443 From: Oregon, USA Joined: 08-27-2006 Member Rating: 5.0
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Message 337 of 1429 (895813)
07-20-2022 6:44 PM
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Reply to: Message 336 by Percy
07-20-2022 3:12 PM
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Re: Dredge thinks not knowing everything is not knowing anything
Percy writes: Dredge writes: How many times must I repeat that mere belief doesn't magically turn your explanation (ToE) into a fact? You repeat your mistake yet again. The ToE is not a fact. There are people like you who falsely charge others with claiming the ToE is a fact, but you lie. It is the record of change in the fossil record that is a fact. Again, it is a fact that you yourself acknowledged. This is a puzzling pattern of posts, at least for me. Dredge: "if you don't know everything you cannot possible know anything." Us: "Here's some things we know." Dredge: "you can't possibly know that because you don't know something else." Us: "Here's some things we know and we know about them because of all this evidence." Dredge: "you can't possibly know that because you don't know the same thing I said before you mentioned evidence" Dredge: "I believe fossil record shows a change in life forms that I might call evolution, but I probably won't." Dredge: "bible quote." Repeat. He doesn't seem to have a goal or desire meaningful discussion.
Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty PythonOne important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 336 by Percy, posted 07-20-2022 3:12 PM | | Percy has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 338 by nwr, posted 07-20-2022 7:13 PM | | Tanypteryx has replied | | | Message 340 by dwise1, posted 07-21-2022 12:31 AM | | Tanypteryx has not replied | | | Message 346 by Percy, posted 07-21-2022 8:52 AM | | Tanypteryx has not replied |
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Tanypteryx
Member Posts: 4443 From: Oregon, USA Joined: 08-27-2006 Member Rating: 5.0
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Message 339 of 1429 (895815)
07-20-2022 11:50 PM
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Reply to: Message 338 by nwr
07-20-2022 7:13 PM
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Re: Dredge thinks not knowing everything is not knowing anything
And that's why I have not been responding to his recent posts. He appears to just be trolling. Yeah, he's kept at it a surprisingly long time considering how long the recent batches of creationists lasted that have passed through these uncrowded halls lately.
Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty PythonOne important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 338 by nwr, posted 07-20-2022 7:13 PM | | nwr has seen this message but not replied |
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Tanypteryx
Member Posts: 4443 From: Oregon, USA Joined: 08-27-2006 Member Rating: 5.0
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Message 387 of 1429 (895864)
07-22-2022 2:04 PM
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Reply to: Message 283 by Dredge
07-09-2022 11:59 PM
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Re: Dredge thinks not knowing everything is not knowing anything
Dr. Gunter Bechly is one of my heroes! ..
...I love to read Bechly's stuff. I was surprised didn't answer Message 297 considering how much you love Bechly's stuff. So you have no response to my observation that Bechly's scientific achievements do not include any mention of his ID beliefs?
Tanypteryx writes: Dr. Gunter Bechly is one of my heroes! He has authored or co-authored more than 160 scientific publications, including a co-edited and co-authored book published by Cambridge University Press and...blah, blah, blah... Wow, I guess you've read all his papers and books. That all sounds like a publicity blurb. One thing I am sure you have noticed in his scientific writing is absolutely no mention of his interest in Intelligent Design, none, nada. I have never met Bechly, but I have worked on research projects with people who have also worked with him on projects. Many in the odonate study community were surprised when he joined the Discovery Institute, but everyone noted that he refused to discuss his views of ID with colleagues. To many, it was fairly obvious that he realized he would lose credibility if he did. I haven't followed his recent work, but what I read of his papers seemed like good science and clearly supports evolutionary history of insects. I don't know how he got involved with the religious fanatics at the Discovery Institute, but his actual scientific research doesn't seem to support anything about ID. On July 18, last Monday, coincidentally I got an email from ResearchGate with the subject: Günter Bechly, an author you cited, uploaded a full-text to: The damselfly palaeofauna from the Eocene of Wyoming and.... I had forgotten that a project and paper I worked on a few years ago cited Bechly. Anyway, when you paste his scientific achievements into a post about ID, you are implying that ID is supported by his work in paleontology and entomology, but that is not the case at all. No where in all those species descriptions and fossil descriptions and discussions of revising paleo-phylogenies will you find any conclusion that references Intelligent Design. So, despite Bechly believing in ID, he, just like all other ID believers cannot provide any actual research observations or evidence that supports their beliefs. Do you have any comments?
Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty PythonOne important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 283 by Dredge, posted 07-09-2022 11:59 PM | | Dredge has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 389 by Dredge, posted 07-22-2022 2:16 PM | | Tanypteryx has not replied | | | Message 537 by Dredge, posted 08-03-2022 3:03 PM | | Tanypteryx has replied |
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Tanypteryx
Member Posts: 4443 From: Oregon, USA Joined: 08-27-2006 Member Rating: 5.0
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Message 416 of 1429 (896043)
07-30-2022 11:01 AM
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Reply to: Message 414 by Dredge
07-30-2022 1:44 AM
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Re: Dredge thinks not knowing everything is not knowing anything
Your delusions don't seem to have any effect on how we actually do science. You can't even explain why your hero, Gunter Bechly, never includes his views of ID in any of his papers on Odonate paleontology. Maybe it's because he knows it's all based on a fictional story written by ignorant bronze age goat herders.
Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty PythonOne important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 414 by Dredge, posted 07-30-2022 1:44 AM | | Dredge has not replied |
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Tanypteryx
Member Posts: 4443 From: Oregon, USA Joined: 08-27-2006 Member Rating: 5.0
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Message 429 of 1429 (896067)
07-30-2022 6:38 PM
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Reply to: Message 423 by Dredge
07-30-2022 3:40 PM
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Re: Dredge thinks not knowing everything is not knowing anything
Dr. Bechly doesn't deny that evolution has happened ... he argues that ToE can't account for what is observed. Does he really? Which specific observations does he dispute? How would he correct the Theory of Evolution to more accurately describe reality? Does he provide any supporting evidence? Citations would be nice
Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty PythonOne important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 423 by Dredge, posted 07-30-2022 3:40 PM | | Dredge has not replied |
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