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Author Topic:   Coffee House Musings on Creationist Topic Proposals
Dredge
Member
Posts: 2195
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 91 of 1408 (894467)
05-17-2022 5:32 AM
Reply to: Message 90 by Tanypteryx
05-15-2022 3:09 PM


Re: Dredge thinks not knowing everything is not knowing anything
Tanypteryx writes:
Well, if they did, you would just say they weren’t doing it properly anyway.
Sort of ... I would say whatever fantastic explanations their vivid imaginations dream up are meaningless because they can't be tested. Anyone can talk.
If someone claimed to know how to produce a eukaryote from a prokaryote, for example, I would accept their explanation when they actually produce a eukaryote from a prokaryote.
Humans have spent the past 10,000 years or more, turning wolves into poodles and thousands of other species into tens of thousands of varieties of domestic plants and animals.
Darwinist scientists claim that the evolutionary process that allows a dog to be produced from a wolf is the same evolutionary process that produced the history and diversification of life on earth.
These scientists also claim that, because they understand the evolutionary process that allows a dog to be produced from a wolf, they therefore understand the evolutionary process that produced the history and diversification of life on earth.
But give the evolutionary scientists of the world the task of producing a eukaryote from a prokaryote ... or an amphibian from a fish ... or a reptile from an amphibian ... and they wouldn't have the foggiest; they wouldn't even know how to get to first base. That proves they don't know how life evolved over deep time. Their simplistic nineteenth-century theory fails miserably.
Humans have spent the past 10,000 years or more, turning wolves into poodles and thousands of other species into tens of thousands of varieties of domestic plants and animals.
... and the irony is, none of those achievements required Darwinian theory. LOL

This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by Tanypteryx, posted 05-15-2022 3:09 PM Tanypteryx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 92 by kjsimons, posted 05-17-2022 8:18 AM Dredge has replied
 Message 93 by Percy, posted 05-17-2022 9:41 AM Dredge has replied
 Message 94 by Tanypteryx, posted 05-17-2022 1:07 PM Dredge has replied
 Message 95 by AnswersInGenitals, posted 05-17-2022 7:39 PM Dredge has replied

  
Dredge
Member
Posts: 2195
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 96 of 1408 (894693)
05-26-2022 10:18 PM
Reply to: Message 95 by AnswersInGenitals
05-17-2022 7:39 PM


Re: Dredge thinks not knowing everything is not knowing anything
They can research and theorize and talk all they like, but until someone actually produces a eurkaryote from a prokaryote, they can't claim to know how that evolution happened.
Abiogenesis science faces the same problem: Until someone actually produces a viable organism from inanimate matter, no one can claim to know how abiogenesis occurred ... all the research and theorizing and talk in the world is irrelevant.
Scientists can't even demonstrate that eurkaryotes did in fact
evolve from prokaryotes, much less know how it happened.

Edited by Dredge, .

Edited by Dredge, .

Edited by Dredge, .


This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by AnswersInGenitals, posted 05-17-2022 7:39 PM AnswersInGenitals has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 104 by Percy, posted 05-27-2022 8:10 AM Dredge has not replied
 Message 126 by Stile, posted 05-31-2022 10:18 AM Dredge has replied

  
Dredge
Member
Posts: 2195
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 97 of 1408 (894696)
05-26-2022 11:01 PM
Reply to: Message 94 by Tanypteryx
05-17-2022 1:07 PM


Re: Dredge thinks not knowing everything is not knowing anything
Tanypteryx writes:
Can you give us any examples of "someone" claiming they know how to "produce a eukaryote from a prokaryote"?
No ... but plenty claim to know how evolution works.
This seems like a logical conclusion to me:
If someone knows a lot about micro-evolution but doesn't know a thing about how any macro-evolutionary transition in the fossil record proceeded, that person can't claim to know how evolution works.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by Tanypteryx, posted 05-17-2022 1:07 PM Tanypteryx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 98 by Tanypteryx, posted 05-26-2022 11:48 PM Dredge has replied
 Message 105 by Percy, posted 05-27-2022 8:20 AM Dredge has not replied

  
Dredge
Member
Posts: 2195
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 99 of 1408 (894700)
05-27-2022 12:58 AM
Reply to: Message 94 by Tanypteryx
05-17-2022 1:07 PM


Re: Dredge thinks not knowing everything is not knowing anything
Tanypteryx writes:
Scientists already have studied most of the processes involved, so they don't need convincing
These are probably the same scientists who claim to know how evolution works, but couldn't describe how any macro-evolutionary transition in the fossil record even got to first base.
Repeating your ***** task still does not make it valid.
What I think is "*****" is claiming to know how evolution works without being to describe even the first step of any macro-evolutionary transition in the fossil record. (***** = s-i-l-l-y)
Every single shred of evidence discovered so far supports the observation that life is evolving and is the result of billions of years of evolution.
I'm not disputing that. I accept the scientifc evidence that suggests life on earth has been evolving over perhaps billions of years.
Maybe you are unaware, but this is 2022, not 1859, and what we have learned since 1859 fills libraries and museums around the planet and it all supports evolution.
... and yet science is as incapable of describing how macro-transitions in the fossil record proceeded as it was in 1859. In other words, science still doesn't know how evolution works.
the knowledge gained from breeding and other studies lead to the conclusion that the Theory of Evolution is the best explanation for the variety of life on this planet
I accept that Darwinian evolution is the best scientific explanation for what produced the history of life on earth. But as for knowing how evolution produced life on earth, that cannot ever be known ... which means no one can ever claim to know how evolution works.

Edited by Dredge, .


This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by Tanypteryx, posted 05-17-2022 1:07 PM Tanypteryx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 100 by Tanypteryx, posted 05-27-2022 1:46 AM Dredge has replied
 Message 101 by AZPaul3, posted 05-27-2022 3:02 AM Dredge has replied

  
Dredge
Member
Posts: 2195
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 102 of 1408 (894708)
05-27-2022 7:34 AM
Reply to: Message 92 by kjsimons
05-17-2022 8:18 AM


Re: Dredge thinks not knowing everything is not knowing anything
 
kjsimons writes:
To implement the tasks you have assigned the scientist could take a million years and need a laboratory the size of the planet. So, no they aren't going to easily do that, but it doesn't mean they don't have a grasp on how evolution works. It appears that you haven't a clue though thinking that they have to replicate the evolutionary past in the lab to be able to understand it.
The task I mentioned is quite obviously impossible ... just as it's impossible to understand - know - how a macro-evolutionary transition that occurred millions of years ago progressed.
No one can possily know what steps were involved, let alone know how evolutionary mechanisms produced those steps.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by kjsimons, posted 05-17-2022 8:18 AM kjsimons has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 106 by Percy, posted 05-27-2022 8:31 AM Dredge has replied

  
Dredge
Member
Posts: 2195
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 103 of 1408 (894709)
05-27-2022 7:52 AM
Reply to: Message 93 by Percy
05-17-2022 9:41 AM


Re: Dredge thinks not knowing everything is not knowing anything
 
Percy writes:
I'd say something a little different. I would say that with no thought or analysis you'll use disparaging labels to dismiss any scientific hypotheses that conflict with your philosophy or religion.
Percy writes:
I would say something a little different. I would say that with no thought or analysis you'll use disparaging labels to dismiss any scientific hypotheses that conflict with your philosophy or religion.
My philosophy and religion have nothing to do with my argument. Moreover, I accept the scientific evidence that suggests life on earth has evolved over perhaps billions of years.
But as for knowing how it evolved ... well, that's clearly impossible.
For example, consider the hypothesis that the early eukaryotes came about over millions of years by one prokaryote gradually increasingly the degree of absorption of another prokaryote with which it had established a symbiotic relationship.
The only way to know how eukaryotes evolved from prokaryotes is to take a prokaryote and produce an eukaryote from it ... which is obviously impossible. Therefore it's impossible to ever know how eukaryotes evolved from prokaryotes.
Scientists can't even demonstrate that eukaryotes did in fact evolve from prokaryotes, much less know how it happened.
Actually, they have far better than the foggiest. They have clearly constructed hypotheses.
Big deal. Forming a hypothesis is not the same as knowing ... not even close.
It's impossible to know what steps were involved in any macro-transition that occurred millions of years ago, much less know how evolutionary mechanisms produced those steps.
"dark" evolution is what I call it. Feel free to use that term in future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by Percy, posted 05-17-2022 9:41 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 107 by Percy, posted 05-27-2022 9:01 AM Dredge has replied

  
Dredge
Member
Posts: 2195
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 108 of 1408 (894797)
05-29-2022 9:32 PM
Reply to: Message 98 by Tanypteryx
05-26-2022 11:48 PM


Re: Dredge thinks not knowing everything is not knowing anything
Tanyptyeryx writes:
I claim to know how evolution works.
Splendid. Well, if you know how evolution works, please describe how a whale's blowhole evolved. Describe the steps involved and how natural selection and environmental pressures produced each of those steps.
Please describe how birds evolved from reptiles. Describe the steps involved and how natural selection and environmental pressures produced those steps.
Please describe how amphibians evolved from fish. Describe the steps involved and how natural selection and environmental pressures produced those steps.

Edited by Dredge, .


This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by Tanypteryx, posted 05-26-2022 11:48 PM Tanypteryx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 120 by ringo, posted 05-30-2022 12:47 PM Dredge has replied
 Message 123 by Tanypteryx, posted 05-30-2022 2:04 PM Dredge has replied

  
Dredge
Member
Posts: 2195
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 109 of 1408 (894798)
05-29-2022 9:42 PM
Reply to: Message 98 by Tanypteryx
05-26-2022 11:48 PM


Re: Dredge thinks not knowing everything is not knowing anything
Tanypteryx writes:
Well, that's the interesting thing, any good biologist and certainly every paleontologist understands the processes of evolutionary transitions in the fossil record.
Amazing! How did they go back in time and observe those transitions? For that is the only way anyone can know what processes were involved.
It is microevolution all the way through the transition. There is no separate process of macroevolution. Every evolutionary biologist knows this.
Yes, I agree that every evolutionary biologist knows that's the theory. But we all know that a theory is neither a fact nor truth nor knowledge.

Edited by Dredge, .


This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by Tanypteryx, posted 05-26-2022 11:48 PM Tanypteryx has seen this message but not replied

  
Dredge
Member
Posts: 2195
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 110 of 1408 (894799)
05-29-2022 9:56 PM
Reply to: Message 100 by Tanypteryx
05-27-2022 1:46 AM


Re: Dredge thinks not knowing everything is not knowing anything
Tanypteryx writes:
Well, they're probably the ones who have been studying evolutionary processes. They realize that there is really no separate process of evolution called macroevolution, so they describe all evolution as microevolution.
... but what a pity no one can prove that known micro-evolutionary mechanisms are responsible for producing the macro-evolutionary transitions evident in the fossil record.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by Tanypteryx, posted 05-27-2022 1:46 AM Tanypteryx has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 121 by ringo, posted 05-30-2022 12:49 PM Dredge has not replied

  
Dredge
Member
Posts: 2195
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 111 of 1408 (894804)
05-30-2022 3:59 AM
Reply to: Message 101 by AZPaul3
05-27-2022 3:02 AM


Re: Dredge Doesn't Think
AZPaul3 writes:
Yes, we know how macro-evolution works. We can describe in detail how macro-evolutionary transition in the fossil record got to first base and then rounded to home.
Really? Wow.
In that case, please describe how a whale's blowhole evolved. Describe the steps involved and how natural selection and environmental pressures produced each of those steps.
Please describe how birds evolved from reptiles. Describe the steps involved and how natural selection and environmental pressures produced those steps.
Please describe how amphibians evolved from fish. Describe the steps involved and how natural selection and environmental pressures produced those steps.
First base is micro-evolution. In fact all the bases are micro-evolution. Can you really be so mind-numbing dumb you can’t see how the accumulation of small incremental changes leads to large differences?
As dumb as I am ( my IQ is less than 10), I actually undertstand the theory you describe.
But did you know that reciting a theory doesn't demonstrate that that you know anything, much less know what happened millions of years ago?
When growing up did you record, document, each millimeter of your micro growth? Of course not. You didn’t even notice. But after years of this incremental change what you do see is that you finally reach over 5 feet. A macro achievement. 
That's pretty deep. I'll have to give it some thought.
Your inability to comprehend that macro is nothing more than the accumulation of micro is another symptom of your deep mental deficiencies that listens to illusion and shows you visions of specters, phantasms of your disturbed mind. Seek professional psychiatric help before you get “that” message in your head and you go off to kill a bunch of kids in a school.
Thank you very much for that wonderful and sage advice.
In none of this is there any kind of god. Again the demented human mind conjures its fantasies. You hear the voices of your invisible masters and see the visions of ghosts giving you dire warnings.
Your wisdom is astounding.
You are one sick puppy.
You noticed too? Sadly, you're not the first person to tell me that. Deep down, I know it's true.
Register with the police
Already done.
and for god sake stay away from guns.
For god's sake? Which one?

Edited by Dredge, .


This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by AZPaul3, posted 05-27-2022 3:02 AM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 112 by Tangle, posted 05-30-2022 4:17 AM Dredge has replied
 Message 114 by AZPaul3, posted 05-30-2022 7:08 AM Dredge has not replied
 Message 117 by AZPaul3, posted 05-30-2022 7:37 AM Dredge has not replied

  
Dredge
Member
Posts: 2195
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 113 of 1408 (894806)
05-30-2022 4:25 AM
Reply to: Message 106 by Percy
05-27-2022 8:31 AM


Re: Dredge thinks not knowing everything is not knowing anything
Percy writes:
We cannot know things that happened long ago for which almost no evidence survives ...
​Knowing how evolution works is one thing, and we understand that pretty well. Knowing how something specifically evolved billions of years ago for which almost no evidence survives is a different thing and is unlikely to happen.
Please explain how you can claim to know "pretty well" how evolution works, if you can't describe how any macro-evolutionary transition in the fossil record proceeded?

Edited by Dredge, .


This message is a reply to:
 Message 106 by Percy, posted 05-27-2022 8:31 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 115 by AZPaul3, posted 05-30-2022 7:21 AM Dredge has replied

  
Dredge
Member
Posts: 2195
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 116 of 1408 (894810)
05-30-2022 7:31 AM
Reply to: Message 107 by Percy
05-27-2022 9:01 AM


Re: Dredge thinks not knowing everything is not knowing anything
Dredge writes:
Moreover, I accept the scientific evidence that suggests life on earth has evolved over perhaps billions of years.
Percy writes:
That contradicts your assertion that no one knows how evolution works.
There is no contradiction at all. I can accept that life on earth evolved without knowing (or anyone knowing) the first thing about how evolution works.
Dredge writes:
But as for knowing how it evolved ... well, that's clearly impossible.
Percy writes:
Why do you think that?
I think the the only way to know how macro-evolutionary transitions happened millions of years ago is to have directly observed them ... which is impossible.
Everything evolved according to the theory of evolution.
Can you prove that?
I think what you meant to say, since it would be consistent with what you just said previously, is that we don't know the details of how it evolved. We don't the know the specific mutations or the specific evolutionary selection pressures.
If you don't know the specific details of the process, how can you claim to know how evolution works?
If I claimed to know how to split an atom, but couldn't describe the details of the process, I wouldn't expect anyone to believe my claim.
Dredge writes:
The only way to know how eukaryotes evolved from prokaryotes is to take a prokaryote and produce an eukaryote from it ... which is obviously impossible.
Percy writes:
Why do you think this? It obviously isn't true.
How could anyone know how to produce eukaryotes from prokaryotes without actually doing it?
Successfully producing a eukaryote in the lab would not mean that nature did it the same way billions of years ago.
Sounds fair enuf.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 107 by Percy, posted 05-27-2022 9:01 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 122 by ringo, posted 05-30-2022 12:52 PM Dredge has not replied
 Message 127 by Percy, posted 05-31-2022 11:23 AM Dredge has replied

  
Dredge
Member
Posts: 2195
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 118 of 1408 (894813)
05-30-2022 7:56 AM
Reply to: Message 112 by Tangle
05-30-2022 4:17 AM


Re: Dredge Doesn't Think
Tangle writes:
You've been told that no one knows that and probably never will.
So on one hand you claim to you claim to know how evolution works, but on the other hand you admit you don't know how of the any of the macro-evolutionary transitions I mentioned proceeded.
Seems to me like your hands have built a contradiction.
The ToE does not depend on us knowing every detail of every species' evolution over all time.
Can you describe how even one macro-evolutionary transition in the fossil record proceeded?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 112 by Tangle, posted 05-30-2022 4:17 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 119 by Tangle, posted 05-30-2022 8:05 AM Dredge has replied

  
Dredge
Member
Posts: 2195
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 124 of 1408 (894851)
05-31-2022 7:18 AM
Reply to: Message 123 by Tanypteryx
05-30-2022 2:04 PM


Re: Dredge thinks not knowing everything is not knowing anything
Hang on, let me get this straight ... you claim to know how evolution works, but you can't describe the process involved in any of the macro-evolutionary transitions I mentioned?
Can you describe the process involved in any macro-evolutionary transition in the fossil record?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 123 by Tanypteryx, posted 05-30-2022 2:04 PM Tanypteryx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 125 by Tanypteryx, posted 05-31-2022 10:17 AM Dredge has replied
 Message 128 by Percy, posted 05-31-2022 12:18 PM Dredge has replied

  
Dredge
Member
Posts: 2195
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 136 of 1408 (894899)
06-01-2022 9:53 AM
Reply to: Message 125 by Tanypteryx
05-31-2022 10:17 AM


Re: Dredge thinks not knowing everything is not knowing anything
You claim to know how evolution works, so please describe the process involved in the evolution of an amphibian's double-circulation heart from a fish's single-circulation heart, including the steps involved how natural selection and what environmental pressures produced those steps.
I look forward to a demonstration of your knowledge of evolution.
Many thanks.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 125 by Tanypteryx, posted 05-31-2022 10:17 AM Tanypteryx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 138 by Tanypteryx, posted 06-01-2022 10:53 AM Dredge has not replied
 Message 140 by Percy, posted 06-01-2022 11:17 AM Dredge has replied

  
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