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Author Topic:   The Power of the New Intelligent Design...
sensei
Member
Posts: 482
Joined: 01-24-2023


Message 991 of 1197 (908159)
03-09-2023 5:08 AM
Reply to: Message 987 by AZPaul3
03-08-2023 8:42 AM


Re: Typical?
How do you define troll?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 987 by AZPaul3, posted 03-08-2023 8:42 AM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 994 by AZPaul3, posted 03-09-2023 9:50 AM sensei has not replied

  
sensei
Member
Posts: 482
Joined: 01-24-2023


Message 992 of 1197 (908160)
03-09-2023 5:10 AM
Reply to: Message 989 by dwise1
03-08-2023 10:29 AM


Re: Typical?
How is evolutionist more made up than creationist, hypocrite!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 989 by dwise1, posted 03-08-2023 10:29 AM dwise1 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 996 by Granny Magda, posted 03-09-2023 11:07 AM sensei has not replied

  
sensei
Member
Posts: 482
Joined: 01-24-2023


Message 993 of 1197 (908161)
03-09-2023 5:12 AM
Reply to: Message 988 by Granny Magda
03-08-2023 8:48 AM


Re: Typical?
You still have not defined hierarchy.
And what you wrote or quoted, is also not a definition even.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 988 by Granny Magda, posted 03-08-2023 8:48 AM Granny Magda has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 995 by Granny Magda, posted 03-09-2023 10:53 AM sensei has replied
 Message 999 by Tangle, posted 03-09-2023 11:16 AM sensei has not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8593
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 994 of 1197 (908172)
03-09-2023 9:50 AM
Reply to: Message 991 by sensei
03-09-2023 5:08 AM


Re: Typical?
How do you define troll?
A troll is an internet denizen named sensei who has no knowledge of science yet insists he can defeat evolution. Though this sensei troll is more the fool with major misunderstandings on evidence, logic and argument, he emotionally baits and insults opponents when he has no evidence for his illogical and insane religious fantasy. Unfortunately, that means always.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 991 by sensei, posted 03-09-2023 5:08 AM sensei has not replied

  
Granny Magda
Member (Idle past 124 days)
Posts: 2462
From: UK
Joined: 11-12-2007


Message 995 of 1197 (908177)
03-09-2023 10:53 AM
Reply to: Message 993 by sensei
03-09-2023 5:12 AM


Re: Typical?
You still have not defined hierarchy.
I am perfectly content with the quick definition given by AZPaul3 in Message 978
AZPaul3 writes:
Hierarchy: Any system of things ranked one above another.

In evolution a nested hierarchy is shown by population groups that emerge as offspring from earlier population groups.
And Taq gave you a more detailed explanation of what we mean by nested hierarchy as well, which I made clear I agreed with.
Now you can take issue with these definitions if you wish, but pretending they were never given is simply a lie and rather a pointless one as well, since it's all there in black and white. Well, white and blue. You know what I mean.
Let's try another tack; how do you define "nested hierarchy".
(AbE) Or alternatively, how do you define "definition"? Serious question, not a joke, how do you define "definition"? Because you keep being given them and you keep complaining, so obviously your idea of a definition is different to ours, so let's have it; what are you asking for exactly?
Mutate and Survive

On two occasions I have been asked, – "Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out?" ... I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question. - Charles Babbage

This message is a reply to:
 Message 993 by sensei, posted 03-09-2023 5:12 AM sensei has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 997 by sensei, posted 03-09-2023 11:09 AM Granny Magda has replied

  
Granny Magda
Member (Idle past 124 days)
Posts: 2462
From: UK
Joined: 11-12-2007


Message 996 of 1197 (908182)
03-09-2023 11:07 AM
Reply to: Message 992 by sensei
03-09-2023 5:10 AM


Re: Typical?
What do you care if he attacks creationism? You're not a creationist are you? You are a neutral minded observer, not dragged down by biases like everyone else. Right? That's what you were trying to imply here;
sensei writes:
What does it matter where I stand? Science is based on data.
And here;
sensei writes:
I don't care about which model is prettiest or whatever. Only relevent question is, which is correct.
What do attacks on creationism matter to an impartial observer such as yourself?
Mutate and Survive

On two occasions I have been asked, – "Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out?" ... I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question. - Charles Babbage

This message is a reply to:
 Message 992 by sensei, posted 03-09-2023 5:10 AM sensei has not replied

  
sensei
Member
Posts: 482
Joined: 01-24-2023


Message 997 of 1197 (908183)
03-09-2023 11:09 AM
Reply to: Message 995 by Granny Magda
03-09-2023 10:53 AM


Re: Typical?
You are so easily content with vague definitions.
How do you measure rank in biology?
Taq described nested hierarchy without defining it, and without defining hierarchy in particular even.
If you can't define it, then just say so.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 995 by Granny Magda, posted 03-09-2023 10:53 AM Granny Magda has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 998 by sensei, posted 03-09-2023 11:11 AM sensei has not replied
 Message 1000 by Granny Magda, posted 03-09-2023 11:55 AM sensei has not replied

  
sensei
Member
Posts: 482
Joined: 01-24-2023


Message 998 of 1197 (908185)
03-09-2023 11:11 AM
Reply to: Message 997 by sensei
03-09-2023 11:09 AM


Re: Typical?
He uses the term. He wants evolutionist defined. Then he should define creationist as well. Whatever it is.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 997 by sensei, posted 03-09-2023 11:09 AM sensei has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1001 by Granny Magda, posted 03-09-2023 11:57 AM sensei has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9533
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.8


(2)
Message 999 of 1197 (908187)
03-09-2023 11:16 AM
Reply to: Message 993 by sensei
03-09-2023 5:12 AM


Re: Typical?
Nested hierarchies
If different species share common ancestors, we would expect living things to be related to one another in what scientists refer to as nested hierarchies — rather like nested boxes. This is indeed what we observe in the living world and in the fossil record. When we study their traits, species naturally cluster into groups based on suites of similar, inherited traits (i.e., homologies). And they don’t just cluster into groups. They cluster into groups within groups within groups…etc. This observation makes most sense if we understand that, over time, lineages have split and formed new species, which then split and formed even more species, and so on, passing down traits and generating the branching structure that is the Tree of Life. An example is illustrated below.
There's more explanation here
Nested hierarchies - Understanding Evolution
That site - which is run by the University of California Museum of Paleontology (UCMP) - also provides other lines of evidence for the ToE. It's a 101 so it shouldn't trouble you too much.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 993 by sensei, posted 03-09-2023 5:12 AM sensei has not replied

  
Granny Magda
Member (Idle past 124 days)
Posts: 2462
From: UK
Joined: 11-12-2007


(1)
Message 1000 of 1197 (908189)
03-09-2023 11:55 AM
Reply to: Message 997 by sensei
03-09-2023 11:09 AM


Re: Typical?
How do you measure rank in biology?
For the purpose of testing the hypothesis of common ancestry, we would look at the proposed evolutionary relationships between organisms and compare that to a ranking based on observations such as morphology or genetic similarities. If those measures produce groups within groups within groups within groups, that would constitute a nested hierarchy, in accordance with the predictions of the ToE, and that would provide evidence for an evolutionary relationship. If we instead saw specific traits distributed across groups, with no nested hierarchies, that would falsify common ancestry. We don't see that though.
There are thousands of biologists doing exactly this every day, using derived traits and genetic comparisons to create phylogenetic trees and so far, not a single one of them has shown any violation of nested hierarchy that would be sufficient to falsify the common ancestry of all life or the ToE in general.
Taq described nested hierarchy without defining it, and without defining hierarchy in particular even.

If you can't define it, then just say so.
Tangle has just given you this definition;
quote:
Nested hierarchies
If different species share common ancestors, we would expect living things to be related to one another in what scientists refer to as nested hierarchies — rather like nested boxes. This is indeed what we observe in the living world and in the fossil record. When we study their traits, species naturally cluster into groups based on suites of similar, inherited traits (i.e., homologies). And they don’t just cluster into groups. They cluster into groups within groups within groups…etc. This observation makes most sense if we understand that, over time, lineages have split and formed new species, which then split and formed even more species, and so on, passing down traits and generating the branching structure that is the Tree of Life. An example is illustrated below.
For the record, I agree with this one too.
Mutate and Survive

On two occasions I have been asked, – "Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out?" ... I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question. - Charles Babbage

This message is a reply to:
 Message 997 by sensei, posted 03-09-2023 11:09 AM sensei has not replied

  
Granny Magda
Member (Idle past 124 days)
Posts: 2462
From: UK
Joined: 11-12-2007


Message 1001 of 1197 (908190)
03-09-2023 11:57 AM
Reply to: Message 998 by sensei
03-09-2023 11:11 AM


Re: Typical?
You're talking to yourself again sensei. More so than usual I mean.
Mutate and Survive

On two occasions I have been asked, – "Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out?" ... I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question. - Charles Babbage

This message is a reply to:
 Message 998 by sensei, posted 03-09-2023 11:11 AM sensei has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10158
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.9


(2)
Message 1002 of 1197 (908191)
03-09-2023 12:15 PM
Reply to: Message 985 by sensei
03-08-2023 5:43 AM


Re: Typical?
sensei writes:
This is not a definition.
I was hoping that if we showed you the hierarchy you could understand what they are. Apparently not.
Is this just going to devolve into you asking for definitions for everything?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 985 by sensei, posted 03-08-2023 5:43 AM sensei has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1003 by sensei, posted 03-09-2023 12:43 PM Taq has replied

  
sensei
Member
Posts: 482
Joined: 01-24-2023


Message 1003 of 1197 (908210)
03-09-2023 12:43 PM
Reply to: Message 1002 by Taq
03-09-2023 12:15 PM


Re: Typical?
If some one claims that nested hierarchy is observed and insists that we discuss this further, then yes, hierarchy needs to be defined. You lots failed to do so. No surprise there.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1002 by Taq, posted 03-09-2023 12:15 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1004 by Taq, posted 03-09-2023 12:46 PM sensei has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10158
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.9


Message 1004 of 1197 (908213)
03-09-2023 12:46 PM
Reply to: Message 1003 by sensei
03-09-2023 12:43 PM


Re: Typical?
sensei writes:
If some one claims that nested hierarchy is observed and insists that we discuss this further, then yes, hierarchy needs to be defined.
It's been defined multiple times now. Are you going to address it or not?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1003 by sensei, posted 03-09-2023 12:43 PM sensei has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1005 by sensei, posted 03-09-2023 1:05 PM Taq has replied

  
sensei
Member
Posts: 482
Joined: 01-24-2023


Message 1005 of 1197 (908221)
03-09-2023 1:05 PM
Reply to: Message 1004 by Taq
03-09-2023 12:46 PM


Re: Typical?
A rant and a few examples is not a definition. What is a hierarchy? What are the ranks? How do we determine of two arbitrary species how they are ranked, relative to each other or relative to a general ranking scale?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1004 by Taq, posted 03-09-2023 12:46 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1006 by Taq, posted 03-09-2023 1:09 PM sensei has replied
 Message 1007 by AZPaul3, posted 03-09-2023 2:33 PM sensei has replied

  
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