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Author Topic:   When Good Minds Go Bad
Percy
Member
Posts: 20967
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 61 of 81 (891573)
02-03-2022 3:47 PM
Reply to: Message 59 by jar
02-03-2022 12:41 PM


jar writes:

Tangle writes:

What do we know about the demographics of these nut jobs?

In the US it is about fifty percent of the population.

Optimist!

--Percy


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Percy
Member
Posts: 20967
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 62 of 81 (891574)
02-03-2022 3:57 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by Tanypteryx
02-03-2022 10:35 AM


Tanypteryx writes:

Anyway, our conversation was me being completely incredulous and him being a paranoid nut job until it was time for bed, then we hugged and he told me he loved me (like a switch was flipped)...

Yeah, sometimes he can change like a flipped switch.

Sometimes I wonder if there are two types of conspiracy theory believers, or only one type. If there's two types then one type actually believes the conspiracy theories, while the other type knows they're total bullshit but acting like they believe them serves their purposes.

--Percy


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jar
Member
Posts: 33957
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 63 of 81 (891575)
02-03-2022 4:12 PM
Reply to: Message 62 by Percy
02-03-2022 3:57 PM


Percy writes:

Sometimes I wonder if there are two types of conspiracy theory believers, or only one type. If there's two types then one type actually believes the conspiracy theories, while the other type knows they're total bullshit but acting like they believe them serves their purposes.

Again, that is a defining characteristic of the Christian Cult of Willful Ignorance and Deceit.

I have absolutely no doubt that the vast majority of Christian Apologists understand that when they are marketing is total bullshit and that the vast majority of their followers actually believes the bullshit.


My Website: My Website

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Tangle
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Posts: 8579
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.9


(2)
Message 64 of 81 (891576)
02-03-2022 4:19 PM
Reply to: Message 62 by Percy
02-03-2022 3:57 PM


Percy writes:

Sometimes I wonder if there are two types of conspiracy theory believers, or only one type. If there's two types then one type actually believes the conspiracy theories, while the other type knows they're total bullshit but acting like they believe them serves their purposes.

There are people cynically creating these fantasies - some of them probably overseas actors. Some of them are real domestic loonies and there are others exploiting the situation and amplifying it - Fox news, Trump, various fundamental Christian organisation, rightwing wing nuts etc. It's possible that the original conspiracies

The followers believe, the creators, not always.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


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LamarkNewAge 
Suspended Member (Idle past 55 days)
Posts: 2236
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 65 of 81 (891621)
02-05-2022 3:42 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by Percy
02-02-2022 8:11 PM


Re: More From the Young Relative
Are you sure he is not your twin brother?

He sounds just like you!

Does he support your Great Wall of Southern Texas?


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Theodoric
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Posts: 7416
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.7


(2)
Message 66 of 81 (891625)
02-05-2022 8:05 PM
Reply to: Message 65 by LamarkNewAge
02-05-2022 3:42 PM


Re: More From the Young Relative
Go away

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


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dwise1
Member
Posts: 5187
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 2.9


(1)
Message 67 of 81 (891626)
02-05-2022 8:26 PM
Reply to: Message 66 by Theodoric
02-05-2022 8:05 PM


Re: More From the Young Relative
LMA should return to contemplating his sigmoid.

And stop going off his meds.

Edited by dwise1, : Changed to explicit reference to LMA (to make clear I'm not speaking of the young relative).
Ando added second paragraph.


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jar
Member
Posts: 33957
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 68 of 81 (891631)
02-06-2022 8:45 AM
Reply to: Message 67 by dwise1
02-05-2022 8:26 PM


Re: More From the Young Relative
Ease up on the kid.

Next year he will be a Third Year Middle Schooler and can move on to full-blown Chuunibyou.


My Website: My Website

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Percy
Member
Posts: 20967
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 69 of 81 (892191)
03-02-2022 9:59 AM


Proof That SARS-CoV-2 Was Produced in a Lab
I didn't find the latest "Covid was produced in a lab" arguments easy to follow, so in case someone here has an interest in this kind of thing I present it here.

My relative recently presented this article presenting evidence it thought proved that SARS-CoV-2 had a lab origin: Scientists Discover DNA Chunk in COVID That Matches Moderna Patented Sequence from Before Pandemic.

My initial response was that it would be impossible to find a chunk of DNA in SARS-Cov-2 because it is an RNA virus and contains no DNA, but what I think the headline was really trying to say is that the genomic sequence of a certain strand of Moderna DNA (it doesn't matter which half you choose since the two strands are complementary and therefore equivalent) that SARS-CoV-2 contains the same sequence of 19 nucleotides. The actual paper, more a scientific op-ed piece, can be found here: MSH3 Homology and Potential Recombination Link to SARS-CoV-2 Furin Cleavage Site. The sledding in this one was too tough for me, and I'm not sure everything I just said is correct.

So I read The return of the revenge of “COVID-19 mRNA vaccines permanently alter your DNA” and “lab leak”, which attempts to debunk two recently resurrected conspiracy theories (I think conspiracy theories are like zombies - they never really die). The "lab leak" conspiracy theory debunking begins about 2/3 of the way down under the subtitle "Moderna and the 'lab leak'".

But I found this debunking to be tough sledding, too.

Does anyone happen to have an interest in this sort of thing and can help me sort it out?

--Percy

Edited by Percy, : Fix link.


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Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 3433
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 70 of 81 (892193)
03-02-2022 10:10 AM
Reply to: Message 69 by Percy
03-02-2022 9:59 AM


Re: Proof That SARS-CoV-2 Was Produced in a Lab
The whole March 2022 issue of Scientific American is devoted to Covid and how it changed the world. I'm working my way through that, lots of accurate information, including conspiracy theories about it's origin.

Edited by Tanypteryx, : No reason given.


What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq


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jar
Member
Posts: 33957
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.1


(1)
Message 71 of 81 (892194)
03-02-2022 10:11 AM
Reply to: Message 69 by Percy
03-02-2022 9:59 AM


Re: Proof That SARS-CoV-2 Was Produced in a Lab
It's very easy to sort out.

It's all irrelevant now.

Could a killer virus be created in a lab and then released in public intentionally or accidentally?

Yup. Sure can.

Did Covid-19 originate in an intentional or accidental lab leak?

Who cares?

The important data is that it was recognized and vaccines and procedures and medicines to address the effects of Covid-19 were created in labs and then released to the public and such research and development continues.

The original source might be relevant if civil suits for damages or criminal charges were to be laid but in this case neither is even remotely possible.

So jess fuggitaboutit.


My Website: My Website

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PaulK
Member
Posts: 17179
Joined: 01-10-2003


(1)
Message 72 of 81 (892198)
03-02-2022 10:34 AM
Reply to: Message 69 by Percy
03-02-2022 9:59 AM


Re: Proof That SARS-CoV-2 Was Produced in a Lab
Looking at the SBM article (please fix the link) they raise the obvious point that the probability is meaningless. How many sequences did they look at to find that 19-base match ? It’s just cherry picking to point out the one match they found without providing that information.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 3433
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 73 of 81 (892200)
03-02-2022 10:42 AM
Reply to: Message 71 by jar
03-02-2022 10:11 AM


Re: Proof That SARS-CoV-2 Was Produced in a Lab
It's all irrelevant now.

Could a killer virus be created in a lab and then released in public intentionally or accidentally?

You're right it is irrelevant now.

I find the idea that a virus would be intentionally released silly though. I can imagine a single nutjob infecting themselves or others, but why would a government release it on their own people? What political or national agenda would be served by starting a global pandemic with completely unpredictable consequences?

The Chinese government's behavior with regards to cooperating with the rest of the globe on learning everything we can about Covid made them look like assholes, but it doesn't make any sense that they would infect themselves on purpose.


What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq


This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by jar, posted 03-02-2022 10:11 AM jar has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 20967
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 74 of 81 (892204)
03-02-2022 11:03 AM
Reply to: Message 72 by PaulK
03-02-2022 10:34 AM


Re: Proof That SARS-CoV-2 Was Produced in a Lab
I fixed the link, thanks for letting me know.

What's the significance of the furin cleavage site to what looks like a coincidental sequence match?

--Percy


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PaulK
Member
Posts: 17179
Joined: 01-10-2003


Message 75 of 81 (892206)
03-02-2022 11:25 AM
Reply to: Message 74 by Percy
03-02-2022 11:03 AM


Re: Proof That SARS-CoV-2 Was Produced in a Lab
The furin cleavage site is important, but the matching sequence doesn’t seem to be. The ideas on how they might be related seem to be highly speculative - maybe even clutching at straws. I can’t be certain just how bad it is, but I’d want something a lot more substantial for a match that small.

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