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Author Topic:   A less bizarre discussion of religious beliefs.
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 6837
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 31 of 54 (890351)
01-02-2022 3:44 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by jar
01-02-2022 1:27 PM


Re: Empiricist Stability
AZPaul3 writes:

You were allowed to question. Very good. But not too hard. And they apparently quite nicely negated any lingering apostasy that may have crept into your still young thinking. At least for the major tenets if not some the crazier details. Regular church service is good for that.

And what evidence do you base that upon?

My analysis goes like this:

You're a believer. I assume from reading this and other of your stuff, that belief came early. Family or school, makes no difference. Throughout all this other training and exposure you still hold to your (admittedly) illogical belief there is a god. But, you're not a weak mind, jar.

I can't empirically show this, of course, but I believe (from experiences with others) that smart guys can overcome illogical beliefs unless they are constantly reinforced by ritual (services) and/or by the iconography, peer pressure and other pressures from the environment. Home with a religious family or attending a religious school I see as strong reinforcing venues. And you were exposed near daily. That is a lot of woo conjuring.

So, yes, whatever apostasy may have entered your mind was effectively countered by something or it would have won the logical battle (like I said you are not weak minded). You were still in the midsts of your reinforcing cocoon. Your family and/or your school hobbled your mind by reinforcing their illogical doctrines.

No matter what other temporary experiences you may have had with any other philosophy, your constant exposure to the one, not as a curiosity study item but enforced in your child's mind as your family's heart-felt view of the world, does not allow you to challenge the major tenets. They remain in your belief.

You ended up being exactly the religiously indoctrinated man they wanted. It worked in your case as it has worked in so many others.

You may well believe that but again, what do you base that upon?

Simple. You believe in an illogical fantasy. Just like they made you.

Are you saying that you do not think individuals should examine ...

No, I just thought that delving into articles of faith could wait until we each are comfortable with the indoctrination piece. But I'll go anywhere you want whenever you want. I'm easy.

Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by jar, posted 01-02-2022 1:27 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by Phat, posted 01-02-2022 4:03 PM AZPaul3 has replied
 Message 33 by jar, posted 01-02-2022 4:41 PM AZPaul3 has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 16107
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 32 of 54 (890352)
01-02-2022 4:03 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by AZPaul3
01-02-2022 3:44 PM


Re: Empiricist Stability
The thing is, jar never experienced what you call woo. (Im assuming that it means some sort of emotional experience that is mysterious and not evidence-based)

I, on the other hand, experienced woo several times. Admittedly, I want it to be real. I had enough subjective experience to believe that it was (and is). I won't let go of that easily at all. (and why should I?)

Jar stays connected to religion because it teaches values. His family reinforced the love. And the way he has formed his beliefs, it does not conflict with his social responsibility. (His charge, as he calls it)

The real question in my mind is why you are so anti-theist. What good is it for everyone to be on your dark side? Do you really think that human communion will someday lead to a much better world? I bet you liked star trek!


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by AZPaul3, posted 01-02-2022 3:44 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by AZPaul3, posted 01-02-2022 4:53 PM Phat has not replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33957
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 33 of 54 (890353)
01-02-2022 4:41 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by AZPaul3
01-02-2022 3:44 PM


Re: Empiricist Stability
I still don't see how anything in your so called reasoning shows any justification for an assertion that "You were allowed to question. Very good. But not too hard."

Maybe you can try again to post some reasoned argument or evidence that might support that assertion.


My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by AZPaul3, posted 01-02-2022 3:44 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by AZPaul3, posted 01-02-2022 5:47 PM jar has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 6837
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.5


(1)
Message 34 of 54 (890355)
01-02-2022 4:53 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by Phat
01-02-2022 4:03 PM


Re: Empiricist Stability
Woo, is just a disingenuous term meaning illogical, non-natural and just plain silly.

Doesn't require any experience other than to think dumb.

The real question in my mind is why you are so anti-theist.

You read, you participated, in the Anti-Theist thread. You should know why I detest the errant, illogical, sloppy and evil thinking that hallmarks all religion. Too easily manipulated and too readily accepted without question theologies have been, and continue to be poison to the human soul.

What good is it for everyone to be on your dark side?

The end of religion. An extended age of human enlightenment. Nirvana. The dark side, Phat, is secular humanism. Everybody needs to walk on the dark side.

Do you really think that human communion will someday lead to a much better world?

No. I think we're fucked. Climate change, the dystopian human reaction and the disastrous effects of these constant wars, will doom humanity. We will be dead, extinct and not missed in the least within 5000 years. Go humans.

I bet you liked star trek!

What have I ever said or done that would make you believe that I could not be enthralled by the society, zeitgeist and technology of the Star Trek universe?

You insult my Roddenberrian sensibilities, sir.


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by Phat, posted 01-02-2022 4:03 PM Phat has not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 6837
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 35 of 54 (890356)
01-02-2022 5:47 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by jar
01-02-2022 4:41 PM


Re: Empiricist Stability
Again, jar, my major evidence is you are not a stupid man.

You were allowed, so you say, to challenge, to question.

I cannot believe that you did not question so I take as given you did question. You questioned some of the illogical superstitious small craziness of the bible that your intellect rejects. You don't believe these things anymore (talking snakes, world fluds).

Yet with major tenets, like there is a god, I am sure you also questioned but failed to overcome. Why?

If you can successfully discern bullshit in the small stuff then what failed with the more important major tenets? After all they are made of the same stuff: unevidenced fantasy.

Something interfered.

My opinion, you were not allowed to complete your analysis due to the constant insistence that such is true bombarding you in both active and passive ways never allowing the counter argument to mature regardless of your doubts. In other words the religious culture shouted down your doubts. Talking snakes are cool but superfluous. God is too central. The cocoon will not allow you to question too hard and not believe. Constant reinforcement through constant repetition. The power of the repetition of the big lie.

Does this help?

Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by jar, posted 01-02-2022 4:41 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by jar, posted 01-02-2022 6:36 PM AZPaul3 has replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33957
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 36 of 54 (890357)
01-02-2022 6:36 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by AZPaul3
01-02-2022 5:47 PM


Re: Empiricist Stability
AZPaul3 writes:

Yet with major tenets, like there is a god, I am sure you also questioned but failed to overcome. Why?

Because I have never seen or found any evidence that there is not a GOD.

I'm sure you have seen at least a few of my posts where I have described the concept of GOD(s), God(s) and god(s).

There is also my oft repeated and reposted assertion that if GOD does not exist then GOD does not exist regardless of any belief that GOD exists. However, if GOD exists the GOD exists regardless of any belief that GOD does not exist.

There is ample evidence that all of the God(s) and god(s) we that have ever been described are simply the product of human imagination.

Yet there is simply no evidence that GOD exists or does not exist.

AZPaul3 writes:

My opinion, you were not allowed to complete your analysis due to the constant insistence that such is true bombarding you in both active and passive ways never allowing the counter argument to mature regardless of your doubts. In other words the religious culture shouted down your doubts

I have never doubted that is your opinion however so far you have never presented any reasoned argument or evidence to support your opinion.


My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by AZPaul3, posted 01-02-2022 5:47 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by AZPaul3, posted 01-02-2022 7:50 PM jar has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 6837
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 37 of 54 (890359)
01-02-2022 7:50 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by jar
01-02-2022 6:36 PM


Re: Empiricist Stability
Because I have never seen or found any evidence that there is not a GOD.

I have never seen or found any evidence that there is not a pink elephant, either.

Of course not. No one can prove a negative. It is not logically possible. The question has no meaning.

Aren't you saying you have never seen or found any evidence that there is a god and your acculturated conditioning fills that void in your knowledge with yes?

As you say there is no evidence. Neither of us can give a statement either way (though I claim there is evidence of no god just to piss off some individuals when I'm feeling ornery, and please don't tell anyone about that. I'll want to use that again).

But you believe. That tells me your default answer to this question despite no evidence is yes. And I think your acculturation, all that time in the cocoon, is the reason you take this illogical stance. You take a logical reasoned stance on the talking snake so we know your brain works.

I have never doubted that is your opinion however so far you have never presented any reasoned argument or evidence to support your opinion.

I can't do any more here. I think you couldn't properly analyse god because the environment in the cocoon would not let you. I can't prove any such thing. Only based on how I perceive the cocoon as you describe the details of your training and the fact that your intellect discerned the bs in the other tenets. That's all I got. Well, familiarity with religious environments and propagating the big lie. That kind of stuff.

And besides, this is opinion and doesn’t need any support. Which is very illogical and, at our age we’re allowed to be illogical whenever and wherever we want. That's what I was told, anyway.

Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.

Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.

Edited by AZPaul3, : word evidence to prove - the usual saying


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by jar, posted 01-02-2022 6:36 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by jar, posted 01-03-2022 9:35 AM AZPaul3 has replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33957
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 38 of 54 (890364)
01-03-2022 9:35 AM
Reply to: Message 37 by AZPaul3
01-02-2022 7:50 PM


Re: Empiricist Stability
AZPaul3 writes:

Aren't you saying you have never seen or found any evidence that there is a god and your acculturated conditioning fills that void in your knowledge with yes?

But it is not a matter of filling some void. That is your misconception.

AZPaul3 writes:

But you believe. That tells me your default answer to this question despite no evidence is yes. And I think your acculturation, all that time in the cocoon, is the reason you take this illogical stance. You take a logical reasoned stance on the talking snake so we know your brain works.

Actually, if you put in the effort, you can find one of my posts here supporting the idea of a talking snake.

Seek and ye shall find.

AZPaul3 writes:

And besides, this is opinion and doesn’t need any support. Which is very illogical and, at our age we’re allowed to be illogical whenever and wherever we want. That's what I was told, anyway.

You were not told that by me. There are many times when you can be illogical but not whenever and wherever we want.

If I was presented with evidence that showed there was no god I would have to accept that as fact. I would hope that were you presented evidence that there was a god you too would accept that as fact.

But back towards the discussion of religious beliefs the only issue I can see with anyone's religious belief or non-belief would be when such beliefs or non-beliefs have some negative consequences.

There are of course examples of just that.

My mention of Iberian Islam was just such a case which is why it was one of the points stressed in my Sacred Studies classes at ST Paul's School for Boys back in the 1950s. At that time a major driving force for enlightenment was Islam. The contrast between the Christian world and Muslim world at that time showed the Islamic Iberian culture very much connected to reality, questioning, social equality, acceptance of other religious beliefs and cultures. At the same time the Christian world was typified by repression questioning, social equality, acceptance of other religious beliefs and cultures and placing SOURCE over content, BELIEF over evidence and FANTASY over reality.

Islam during the Iberian Caliphates emphasized learning. Islam taught that everyone, rich or poor, master or servant should be able to read and write. Islam at that time taught that scholars should be free to explore ideas and in fact Jews and Christian and Muslim scholars were drawn to the libraries and madrassa and colleges throughout the Iberian Peninsula. Books and documents were being translated into a score or more of different languages.

While the Christian world ultimately dominated the Iberian Caliphates politically the Islamic ideas from that period also conquered the Christian world. Arabic numbers replaced Roman Numerals and geometry allowed the Gothic Cathedrals to be built. The concepts of individual rights and freedoms and equality that were a hallmark of the Iberian Caliphates eventually resurfaced during the Enlightenment and Reformation. After the Christian Conquest of Islamic Iberia, we found Christianity and the Spanish Inquisition and suppression of ideas that the church found to conflict with dogma.

We can see a very similar situation today in the Avoidance Religious Culture, particularly the Conservative Christian Evangelical Biblical churches. There we see repression, approve media, approved textbook, approved thoughts.

The important point from my perspective is that religious beliefs are not necessarily good or bad. But acts, works are significant. My religious background was being taught to question. It was being taught to look at evidence.

If you have followed any of my posts here at EvC you may have noticed that I often seem to find Christian posters rebuking my posts. One poster here said I should be taken out and shot. Most often it was because I posted something that questioned the dogma they accepted and marketed. Alot of the posts that seemed to get feathers rustled were simply pointing out facts. Jesus was not a Christian. There is no such thing as "The Bible™". Christianity can make no more authoritative claim of being "The TRUE religion" than any other religion. That if there is a heaven it will be filled with atheists, Buddhists, Hindus, Muslims, Jews, Satanists, Taoists and damn few Christians. Historically Christianity was spread by sword and fiat rather than actual worth.

It is not religious beliefs that matter but actions.


My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by AZPaul3, posted 01-02-2022 7:50 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by AZPaul3, posted 01-03-2022 12:11 PM jar has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 6837
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 39 of 54 (890369)
01-03-2022 12:11 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by jar
01-03-2022 9:35 AM


Re: Empiricist Stability
Actually, if you put in the effort, you can find one of my posts here supporting the idea of a talking snake.

Seek and ye shall find.

If I err in representing you and you want to correct me saying your old posts somewhere say otherwise then bring it. I will stand corrected.

If you want to refute my points by reference to your statement of faith long buried in the archives then bring it. As I said I will not challenge any of your articles of faith.

No, I am not going to go through all 33K of your posts looking for your words. If they are important then bring them here. Otherwise we could end this right here.


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by jar, posted 01-03-2022 9:35 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by jar, posted 01-03-2022 12:13 PM AZPaul3 has not replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33957
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 40 of 54 (890370)
01-03-2022 12:13 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by AZPaul3
01-03-2022 12:11 PM


Re: Empiricist Stability
Bye

My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by AZPaul3, posted 01-03-2022 12:11 PM AZPaul3 has not replied

  
Greatest I am
Member
Posts: 1538
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 41 of 54 (890479)
01-06-2022 2:14 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by jar
12-31-2021 10:59 AM


Re: a few preliminaries
"First, that I believe that there is a god and that after I die, I will be judged."

Would you let Hitler be your judge?

Assuming your answer is no, why not, given that the Christian god is a genocidal god just like what he would call St. Hitler.

Right wing Christianity also forces believers to hate their gays or female children, as they must be homophobic and misogynous just like Yahweh.

How can you bend the knee to a genocidal judge?

Regards
DL


This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by jar, posted 12-31-2021 10:59 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by jar, posted 01-06-2022 2:17 PM Greatest I am has not replied

  
Greatest I am
Member
Posts: 1538
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 42 of 54 (890480)
01-06-2022 2:17 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by nwr
12-31-2021 12:06 PM


Re: a few preliminaries
NRW

Do you see harm in inquisitions and jihads and having to hate your gay children?

Regards
DL


This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by nwr, posted 12-31-2021 12:06 PM nwr has seen this message but not replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33957
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 43 of 54 (890481)
01-06-2022 2:17 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by Greatest I am
01-06-2022 2:14 PM


Re: a few preliminaries
LOL

What an absolute **** you are.

If there is a judge, I have absolutely no control over what that judge might be like.

Surely, you're not as stupid as all your posts present.


My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by Greatest I am, posted 01-06-2022 2:14 PM Greatest I am has not replied

  
Greatest I am
Member
Posts: 1538
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 44 of 54 (890482)
01-06-2022 2:25 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by Tangle
01-01-2022 1:35 PM


Re: On nurture from a personal perspective.
Tangle

A holes like you try to put the supernatural woo where there is none.

A holes insult others without purpose, except to show that are a holes who have no clue about what they are talking about.

Regards
DL


This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by Tangle, posted 01-01-2022 1:35 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by Tangle, posted 01-06-2022 4:04 PM Greatest I am has replied
 Message 51 by Tanypteryx, posted 01-07-2022 11:31 AM Greatest I am has not replied

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 3438
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 4.3


Message 45 of 54 (890489)
01-06-2022 3:31 PM


And it just got completely bizarre.

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq


Replies to this message:
 Message 46 by jar, posted 01-06-2022 3:43 PM Tanypteryx has replied

  
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