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Author Topic:   A less bizarre discussion of religious beliefs.
nwr
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Posts: 6039
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 16 of 54 (890310)
12-31-2021 8:07 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by AZPaul3
12-31-2021 7:50 PM


Are you asking me if it matters if our behavior is governed by nonsensical beliefs? Of course it does.

I take jar's point to be that it is the behaviors that matter. And I mostly agree.

Are beliefs not the cornerstone, the very basis from which our actions emanate?

No, they aren't.

As I see it, what mostly motivates our behavior, is our experience in life. Our beliefs mainly have to do with how we communicate with others.


Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by AZPaul3, posted 12-31-2021 7:50 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by AZPaul3, posted 12-31-2021 9:32 PM nwr has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 6837
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 17 of 54 (890311)
12-31-2021 9:32 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by nwr
12-31-2021 8:07 PM


Are beliefs not the cornerstone, the very basis from which our actions emanate?

No, they aren't.

Oh, I thought this was part of our axiomatic set up.

quote:
jar:

Second, that my beliefs will have had some impacts on my behavior over time.



quote:
AZPaul3:

And, of course, all of us act in accord with our acculturated personality. It cannot be other than that our beliefs guide our actions.


Only through our beliefs can we be confident in the efficacy of a pending action. We don't act without reason and the reasoning we use is dependent on our beliefs.This is before we act. Even a sociopath has a belief in their own superiority to social laws before they act to ignore them.

Was there not some belief that guided the decision to act? Wasn't belief the guide to assessing the efficacy of a range of proposed actions? I see a person's beliefs as the guide, even if subconsciously, to all decision making.

But you're saying otherwise. I'm not seeing it. Please show me.

Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by nwr, posted 12-31-2021 8:07 PM nwr has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by nwr, posted 12-31-2021 10:03 PM AZPaul3 has replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6039
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 18 of 54 (890312)
12-31-2021 10:03 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by AZPaul3
12-31-2021 9:32 PM


quote:
jar:

Second, that my beliefs will have had some impacts on my behavior over time.



But that is very different from saying that they are the basis from which actions emanate.

quote:
AZPaul3:

And, of course, all of us act in accord with our acculturated personality. It cannot be other than that our beliefs guide our actions.



A child already has an personality before he acquires language. The personality cannot all be based on beliefs.

Only through our beliefs can we be confident in the efficacy of a pending action.

I doubt that. Our beliefs may refect our confidence, but they are not the basis for that confidence.

We don't act without reason and the reasoning we use is dependent on our beliefs.

Reason does not require belief. We can reason about what we do not believe.

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by AZPaul3, posted 12-31-2021 9:32 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by AZPaul3, posted 12-31-2021 11:26 PM nwr has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 6837
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 19 of 54 (890313)
12-31-2021 11:26 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by nwr
12-31-2021 10:03 PM


But that is very different from saying that they are the basis from which actions emanate.

Yes it is. I tried to make it a bit stronger in my response to him.

A child already has an personality before he acquires language. The personality cannot all be based on beliefs.

Yes, I agree with kids having innate personalities but I disagree with the presumption that values, beliefs, require language in order to be acquired by the rugrat.

Are beliefs synonymous with values? Can we do that?

Maybe I should mention that the beliefs I am speaking of are not limited to religious/secular things but also go to interpersonal relationships and basic self perception.

I cannot say how much personality is innate but the acculturation part (the imparting of beliefs and core values) begins as soon as the snot-nose can absorb the reality around them. They acquire by experiencing and by watching. Experimenting and interacting. Imho, that first bite that solicits a painful bite back is instructive in basic values to an aware child regardless of the language abilities.

Reason does not require belief. We can reason about what we do not believe.

Any kind of reasoning requires an epistemology, does it not? Epistemologies are value-based beliefs in ways of thinking. Certainly any kind of reasoning requires a belief in the epistemological framework that is to be used.

Am I out in left field?

OK I think I got your drift. No, of course not, you do not have to believe in the proposition being argued or reasoned in any way. Such a requirement would be just silly. But the framework you use to argue and reason is based on your epistemological beliefs. So, yes, reason requires belief.

Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.

Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.

Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by nwr, posted 12-31-2021 10:03 PM nwr has replied

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nwr
Member
Posts: 6039
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


(1)
Message 20 of 54 (890314)
12-31-2021 11:46 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by AZPaul3
12-31-2021 11:26 PM


Are beliefs synonymous with values?

No, they aren't.

They might be related, but they are not synonymous. We can have beliefs about things that don't really matter to us, and we can lack belief about things that do matter.

Any kind of reasoning requires an epistemology, does it not?

No, I don't think so.

I'm rather cynical about the value of epistemology, as it is taught by philosophy departments.


Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

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jar
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Posts: 33957
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 21 of 54 (890319)
01-01-2022 8:59 AM


honestly so far even more interesting than expected.
And also, so far much less bizarre.

My Website: My Website

  
jar
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Posts: 33957
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.0


(1)
Message 22 of 54 (890321)
01-01-2022 9:36 AM


On nurture from a personal perspective.
In my growing up there were two basic forms of nurture.

The first was overt, intentional and almost pervasive. It was mom softly singing a hymn, usually from the Methodist Hymn book (her dad had been involved in the Methodist church and her grandfather had even written one of the included selections but honestly, I have no idea which one). It was a nightly prayer ritual when each of us silently made a request for each sibling. It was Sunday getting dressed and all bundling into the car to go to church and hot summers Sundays with the stained-glass window panels tilted open and the smell of Jasmine in the very slight breeze. It was the big cardboard fans in the rails on the backs of the forward pew that dominated over prayer book and hymnals.

But there was also a covert and undirected totally pervasive nurture that was filtered by the cumulative effects of the former. When we made the first visit to St. Paul's School for Boys, we were given a tour of the facilities, where the classrooms were, the dorm, the Mansion (it really was a mansion and had been built by Charles Carroll).

Brooklandwood Dec 09

Brooklandwood Marker Dec 09

The mansion was neat and the dorm tiny and there were lots of really big trees but what truly impressed me as a newly minting teen was that there were piles of books and lacrosse sticks and even jackets and sweaters and ties, just sitting on the lawns when no one was around. I asked about it and the answer was, "Oh, the owners are likely off playing so they just pile their stuff up until they go home or to the dorm."

That was the one thing I remember talking about as we drove home. Dad asked if I thought I'd enjoy going to school there and my thought was "That was a place where it was common to assume everyone could be trusted" and that more than the setting, the change, the challenge attracted me.

We are all the product of both nature and nurture but to a great extent each of those is the result of both intentional and unintentional influence.

Edited by jar, : closing )


My Website: My Website

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by AZPaul3, posted 01-01-2022 12:21 PM jar has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 6837
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 23 of 54 (890324)
01-01-2022 12:21 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by jar
01-01-2022 9:36 AM


Re: On nurture from a personal perspective.
I don’t want to soil the beautiful images, both visual and verbal, you have given us, jar.

But, that is kinda what this thread is for.

The first was overt, intentional and almost pervasive.

Yeah, moms are nice comfortable goddesses. Such an upbringing among family, friends, sounds idyllic.

This is where it first got you, you know. Family is usually the strongest of acculturation venues, right?

And you paint such a warm and loving picture.

I’m glad to hear Granny wasn’t chasing you around the house throwing bibles at you.

But I have to ask. What do you mean almost pervasive? Were am I wrong?

From the picture I see you paint, you were in a cocoon of love and family and selected schooling. That was your entire world thru, what, 12 years, yes? Unless you are defining pervasive in some strange alien way I might count that as pervasive without the almost. Pervasive plus, actually. You were buried in religious indoctrination. Ubiquitous. Omnipresent. You didn’t know anything else.

What did the Jesuits say about giving them a boy at 7 and he is theirs forever? Maybe apocryphal … and scary these days.

But there was also a covert and undirected totally pervasive nurture that was filtered by the cumulative effects of the former.

Did that gentle warm cocoon of religious inculcation have an effect on your thoughts and thus filter your actions … for the rest of your life? I should think so.

So did mine, except mine, apparently, was not as pervasive and deep a religious experience as yours. I consider myself lucky. I got away.

When we made the first visit to St. Paul's School for Boys …

Oh good. A reinforcing camp for your first independent years. This is where you coulda, shoulda, woulda broke free except the coulda part was missing. They wouldn't give you any respite in which to challenge the demon.

We are all the product of both nature and nurture but to a great extent each of those is the result of both intentional and unintentional influence.

Yes. Now I can see where your woo comes from and I can see now the bug may be deeper than I had read in you. My perception, anyway.

I think, in my intellectually arrogant and totally bullshit way, I see how your displayed intellect here could have given you rational questions and confirmed doubts yet still be subservient to those nagging … thoughts, feelings … that just won’t go away. You’ve been made to feel inferior. You must be judged. Congratulations, you’re an Episcopalian who got hit with a large dose of catholic guilt.

Your religious zeitgeist may not I like you, but I do, if that helps any.

Edited by AZPaul3, : I forget


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by jar, posted 01-01-2022 9:36 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by nwr, posted 01-01-2022 12:48 PM AZPaul3 has replied
 Message 28 by jar, posted 01-02-2022 8:57 AM AZPaul3 has replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6039
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 24 of 54 (890326)
01-01-2022 12:48 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by AZPaul3
01-01-2022 12:21 PM


Re: On nurture from a personal perspective.
I think you are reading too much into what jar says.

To me, it seems more likely that he finds his religious community to be quite congenial. And, were it not for that, he would probably be an atheist.


Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by AZPaul3, posted 01-01-2022 12:21 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by AZPaul3, posted 01-01-2022 1:02 PM nwr has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 6837
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 25 of 54 (890329)
01-01-2022 1:02 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by nwr
01-01-2022 12:48 PM


Re: On nurture from a personal perspective.
He is a humanist already. Not that far a stretch to go secular. I wonder what it would take to get him to come over to the dark side. Bring Phat with him.

Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by nwr, posted 01-01-2022 12:48 PM nwr has replied

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 Message 26 by nwr, posted 01-01-2022 1:24 PM AZPaul3 has seen this message but not replied
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nwr
Member
Posts: 6039
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 26 of 54 (890330)
01-01-2022 1:24 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by AZPaul3
01-01-2022 1:02 PM


Re: On nurture from a personal perspective.
He is a humanist already. Not that far a stretch to go secular.

Quite right.

Bring Phat with him.

I'm pretty sure that won't happen.

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

This message is a reply to:
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Tangle
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Posts: 8580
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 27 of 54 (890331)
01-01-2022 1:35 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by AZPaul3
01-01-2022 1:02 PM


Re: On nurture from a personal perspective.
AZP writes:

He is a humanist already.

He's nearer a Deist I think. A bit like Percy but with added Christian woo, like the weird Greatest I am.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


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jar
Member
Posts: 33957
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 28 of 54 (890339)
01-02-2022 8:57 AM
Reply to: Message 23 by AZPaul3
01-01-2022 12:21 PM


Re: On nurture from a personal perspective.
Very close.

And I think from a religious perspective very important.

AZPaul3 writes:

From the picture I see you paint, you were in a cocoon of love and family and selected schooling. That was your entire world thru, what, 12 years, yes? Unless you are defining pervasive in some strange alien way I might count that as pervasive without the almost. Pervasive plus, actually. You were buried in religious indoctrination. Ubiquitous. Omnipresent. You didn’t know anything else.

An entire world for about 79 years now but in this thread the emphasis is primarily on the initial formative years, say through high school so 18 or 19 years.

Where I think you go wrong though is in your last sentence.

I don't know if you ever read My Belief Statement, but it should still be around here somewhere. It's relevant to this discussion and perhaps if you look back at some of the exchanges relating to Christianity with other self-identified Christians here at EvC may give a better indication that I did know something else.

As I mention in the belief statement the need to question, to challenge even our strongest held beliefs was instilled both in my early family life and also by the religious mentors starting at an early pre-teen age. See if you can find the passages where I discuss my interactions with Joe Wood (AKA The Right Reverend Joseph Wood).

The indoctrination to think, to question, to challenge continued at St. Paul's. For example, the phrase/passage "Fight the good fight, run the race." was a constant refrain. Not win the race, not win the fight, but try your best. And not fight the fight but rather fight the GOOD fight.

Those two passages were constantly reinforced, that what is important is that you try and that you need to try to do good. Not just in big things but rather in everyday life.

But there was also more.

We did have Sacred Studies as a mandatory class. But instead of simple indoctrination, instead of dogma, we were challenged to examine other religions, not as false religions but rather valid religious paths. Over the years that included Buddhism, Taoism/Confucianism, Islam, Judaism (and of course with emphasis on the fact that Jesus was a Jew, not a Christian), and a necessarily broad and cursory look at the Hindu religion. In other classes we got a dose of Greek and Roman and Nordic mythology. We were challenged to build a case that there was no God and then to build a case refuting the position we had created.

There was even more. I was a boarding student living on campus in the dorm. Most of the faculty also lived on campus. School itself only took up about 5 hours a day and only five days a week but the interaction with a variety of other really bright and self-assured even arrogant kids and the easy access to long wide-ranging discussions with teachers in the evenings continued constantly challenging beliefs. The faculty never really expressed what to think but constantly challenged us to question what we thought. The other kids were even harder; they did express what they thought and had absolutely no hesitation in pointing out just how stupid your idea was.

AZPaul3 writes:

Did that gentle warm cocoon of religious inculcation have an effect on your thoughts and thus filter your actions … for the rest of your life?

Absolutely. And again, look at what I post.

The point I'd like to make (and I think it's an important one) is that my religious upbringing and education was what produced not just the ability but the need to question, to look at evidence, to examine reality, to place CONTENT over source, EVIDENCE over belief, REALITY over fantasy.

The reason I think it important is that my education shows that it can be done. It is possible to have a religious education that is more than simply my way or the highway.

AZPaul3 writes:

I think, in my intellectually arrogant and totally ******** way, I see how your displayed intellect here could have given you rational questions and confirmed doubts yet still be subservient to those nagging … thoughts, feelings … that just won’t go away. You’ve been made to feel inferior. You must be judged. Congratulations, you’re an Episcopalian who got hit with a large dose of catholic guilt.

Kinda sorta but not quite.

It is not a matter that I feel inferior or that I must be judged but rather that judgement is a fact and that one of my duties is to try my best to honestly evaluate my past behavior, acknowledge where that behavior was wrong, try to make amend and commit to doing my best to not repeat the wrong.

It more Judaic in character than Roman Catholic. I don't think I can simply buy indulgences of say a few Angelic Salutations and that's the end of it. I don't think Jesus' death was some payment for my failings; I think it's my job to actually do stuff to minimize any harm I may have done.

I do believe though that after I die, I'll get a report card with an independent evaluation.

And as I have pointed out repeatedly in my posts, I believe that the important things are what you do, and not why you do it. If you look at the parable of the Sheep and Goats what is actually found is a direct statement attributed to Jesus that condemns the "Believers" that don't do and rewards the "Unbelievers" that do.

Go back a look at my description of the visit to St Paul's School for Boys. What I found significant was not religious but rather the element of trust and honesty and respect demonstrated by the fact that kids felt comfortable to just leave their stuff unattended and that adults saw that not just as normal but rather THE NORM. Once I was enrolled, I learned that there were three main rules at the school. There can be no lying, cheating or stealing. But there was an addendum; "And you will not tolerate those who break the rules." There was an Honor Council with reps from each form (remember that at the time it was a really small school. My class was the largest in the school's history with fifty kids total). If you knew someone cheated, lied or stole you went to them and told them to turn themselves in; if they refused then you went to your Honor Council rep and turned it over to him. The system actually worked and worked with the students themselves making it work.

By their fruits they shall be known.

No jump forward several decades. I'm no longer a student but running the computer system and network for a herd of Marine Biologists. One of the sections was actively proposing some really important conservation rules that would have a very high probability of making a major difference in the crabbing industry. the rules were reasoned, effective, would benefit the crabber's income and livelihood within a few short years but cause an initial disruption and added work.

When the report was prepared I noticed that some of the statistics looked just too perfect. I ran the raw data through my own calculations and found that the actual data simply did not support the conclusions. I went to the director and presented my findings. The biologist leading the project was a good friend and in fact been part of the selection panel that hired me, so it was really, really hard to do. The goal was one I thought important and that should be implemented.

But the results were being fudged, the data simply didn't support the conclusion.

The result was that my friend was fired and the project turned over to another biologist. To make matters even more uncomfortable his wife was also a marine biologist working one room away from my office and I was also helping her with data analysis and computer support.

It had to be done though because it was the right thing to do; not because the data was faulty or even because my friend fudged the data but because the data would be published and someone other than myself would also check the figures and it that happened then the whole idea would get canned. Instead, the new project lead tried a different approach selling the idea not on immediate threat but rather on the fact that the data did show a significant future enhancement. While the idea was still not universally popular it did get accepted and implemented.

My indoctrination as you call it certainly has had an effect on my thoughts and thus filtered my actions … hopefully for the rest of my life.


My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by AZPaul3, posted 01-01-2022 12:21 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by AZPaul3, posted 01-02-2022 12:30 PM jar has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 6837
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 29 of 54 (890346)
01-02-2022 12:30 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by jar
01-02-2022 8:57 AM


Empiricist Stability
I don't know if you ever read My Belief Statement,

Yeah I went looking at your past stuff but you are a prolific member and I am a lazy sob. If you can point me at it I would love to look.

But I already know you believe. What you believe is interesting to know in itself but is less so than the how and the why.

You don’t think you were cocooned in a religious indoctrination? You think you were allowed to experience other views? You were allowed to explore? Did mom tell you about Mohammad? Did your upbringing involve any other religious training other than talk of familiarity? And yet where was your 8 year-old hinny on every Sunday? Eyeballs deep exclusively in jesus and god.

And at your advanced conditioning boy’s school indoctrination camp, I can imagine both Kant and Nietzsche being considered required study for the cultured young man worthy to be a St. Paul’s alum. Maybe covering Kant for your 1 hour philosophy class one day and Nietzsche for an hour the next. You’ve been exposed to other things. You wrote your paper comparing and contrasting god v no god.

How long did that take? A few days?

But what did you do before and after classes? If your boy’s cage was like most such cages you attended morning or evening or both devotional services. Sing praises to his name and all pray in unison. Steeped in religious ritual. Daily. Not as a study of some foreign philosophy but as a veneration of a non-existent deity. Maybe not so intense at St. Paul's but still a starkly christian environment washing over your mind every day reinforcing the stories and the hymns your mom sang.

You did this every day for all your formative years while neuroplasticity was trying to put your mind together.
You were brainwashed just as assuredly as if you had been placed in a Shia madrasa.

You were allowed to question. Very good. But not too hard. And they apparently quite nicely negated any lingering apostasy that may have crept into your still young thinking. At least for the major tenets if not some the crazier details. Regular church service is good for that.

Jar, as I see, you ended up being exactly the religiously indoctrinated young man they set out to create.

The reason I think it important is that my education shows that it can be done. It is possible to have a religious education that is more than simply my way or the highway.

No, jar. You ended up being exactly the religiously indoctrinated man they wanted. It worked in your case as it has worked in so many others. You believe. You may not be the weak sister that succumbs to the orders of the church but, even in your mind now, jar I can believe that if the church says jump you have to stop and think for a second to overcome feeling compelled to ask how high.

It is good they taught you to think, even if it was within controlled circumstances and over-balanced to the side of woo and fantasy. This is probably a major difference between you and Phat. Phat fell into the fantasy unequipped to question.

But your questioning, as far as it went, imho, has not been total. I imagine, jar, there still is that holy of holies in the deep mysterious tabernacle of your mind where questions are not allowed and belief, fantasy, rules.

The point I'd like to make (and I think it's an important one) is that my religious upbringing and education was what produced not just the ability but the need to question, to look at evidence, to examine reality, to place CONTENT over source, EVIDENCE over belief, REALITY over fantasy.

Emphasize religious upbringing and education. And the religion won out.

Of course you would have had the same strength of intellect and ability without the religious aspect of your training. The addition of religion I don’t think did anything for your abilities. You would still be jar, just without that nagging irritation of an illogical fantasy knocking on your empiricist stability.

It is not a matter that I feel inferior or that I must be judged but rather that judgement is a fact …

And this is where we jump off into religious la-la land. For now, I think I’ll just sit here.

Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by jar, posted 01-02-2022 8:57 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by jar, posted 01-02-2022 1:27 PM AZPaul3 has replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33957
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.0


(1)
Message 30 of 54 (890347)
01-02-2022 1:27 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by AZPaul3
01-02-2022 12:30 PM


Re: Empiricist Stability
AZPaul3 writes:

You don’t think you were cocooned in a religious indoctrination? You think you were allowed to experience other views? You were allowed to explore? Did mom tell you about Mohammad? Did your upbringing involve any other religious training other than talk of familiarity? And yet where was your 8 year-old hinny on every Sunday? Eyeballs deep exclusively in jesus and god.

Actually, it was my dad that took me to meet an Imam who also ran a jewelry store and who dumped a bag of uncut stones out for me to examine and then took the time to go over each one explaining its place in various cultures and at 8 years old I was celebrating Sukkot with my Jewish neighbors (still likely my favorite of the three Jewish mandatory Pilgrimage festivals). It was my ten-year-old hinny that was making treks to the Walters Art Gallery when dad took me with him to the office. The Walters has one of the finest collections of Islamic, Hindu and Oriental art anywhere. There was always an adult there who would help me understand what I was seeing, explaining the symbolism and folk tales and myths and legends depicted.

AZPaul3 writes:

And at your advanced conditioning boy’s school indoctrination camp, I can imagine both Kant and Nietzsche being considered required study for the cultured young man worthy to be a St. Paul’s alum. Maybe covering Kant for your 1 hour philosophy class one day and Nietzsche for an hour the next. You’ve been exposed to other things. You wrote your paper comparing and contrasting god v no god.

Sure, those folk as well as Sartre were covered but in somewhat greater depth. Lots of required reading from similar areas as well and over quite a few years. There wasn't a 'philosophy class' rather philosophy was pretty much a factor in Sacred studies and history and especially in the math classes when it came to algebra, trig, analyt and calculus as well as the English classes. We spent one whole semester on the social, political effects of Al Andalus, Islamic Spain and how in Islamic Iberia there was both religious freedom and the finest colleges to be found in the whole world at the time.

AZPaul3 writes:

You wrote your paper comparing and contrasting god v no god.

How long did that take? A few days?

It wasn't a paper but rather a debate format when each of us had to stand before the class and defend the position. It took several weeks to get through since we each had to build our best case first on one side and then the other.

AZPaul3 writes:

But what did you do before and after classes? If your boy’s cage was like most such cages you attended morning or evening or both devotional services. Sing praises to his name and all pray in unison. Steeped in religious ritual. Daily. Not as a study of some foreign philosophy but as a veneration of a non-existent deity. Maybe not so intense at St. Paul's but still a starkly christian environment washing over your mind every day reinforcing the stories and the hymns your mom sang

Not exactly. Chapel was once a week but it was more than just a religious service. It was also a general overview of what would be happening over the next seven days.

But as I said, I was a boarder. Chappel was at most a half hour once a week and you can check out the Morning Prayer format in the Book of Common Prayer (available on-line to those who are not too lazy).

AZPaul3 writes:

You were allowed to question. Very good. But not too hard. And they apparently quite nicely negated any lingering apostasy that may have crept into your still young thinking. At least for the major tenets if not some the crazier details. Regular church service is good for that.

And what evidence do you base that upon? By the way, while ST Paul's is affiliated with the Episcopal Church it was not exclusively Christian. There were kids in my class that most definitely did not believe there was a god and who did really well when it came to the proposition "There is no God".

AZPaul3 writes:

No, jar. You ended up being exactly the religiously indoctrinated man they wanted. It worked in your case as it has worked in so many others. You believe. You may not be the weak sister that succumbs to the orders of the church but, even in your mind now, jar I can believe that if the church says jump you have to stop and think for a second to overcome feeling compelled to ask how high.

You may well believe that but again, what do you base that upon?

AZPaul3 writes:

jar writes:

It is not a matter that I feel inferior or that I must be judged but rather that judgement is a fact …

And this is where we jump off into religious la-la land. For now, I think I’ll just sit here.

Are you saying that you do not think individuals should examine their behavior, acknowledge their errors, honestly regret such lapses, to try to make amends and not repeat those mistakes?

Edited by jar, : fix quote box

Edited by jar, : appalin grammr

Edited by jar, : No ---> Not


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This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by AZPaul3, posted 01-02-2022 12:30 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by AZPaul3, posted 01-02-2022 3:44 PM jar has replied

  
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