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Author Topic:   How the Bible Actually Works
jar
Member (Idle past 367 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 2 of 137 (889641)
12-10-2021 10:18 AM


It's sad when there is absolutely no actual content is a book review and just word salad designed to be palatable to the gullible and unthinking.
It might be a book worth being somewhere other than the privy if there was ANY evidence of Evangelical Biblical Christians exhibiting even a hint of wisdom.

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Replies to this message:
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jar
Member (Idle past 367 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 9 of 137 (889648)
12-10-2021 1:35 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by nwr
12-10-2021 1:21 PM


You would hope so but read that review from Amazon. It is simply word salad with absolutely no content and crafted to sell to the carny crowds.
I there was any indication that Phat could actually read with comprehension he might learn something but the fact that he selected that review seems to indicate otherwise.

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by nwr, posted 12-10-2021 1:21 PM nwr has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by PaulK, posted 12-10-2021 2:57 PM jar has not replied
 Message 15 by nwr, posted 12-10-2021 4:28 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 367 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 16 of 137 (889656)
12-10-2021 6:28 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by nwr
12-10-2021 4:28 PM


The issue is not just that the review/blurb was designed to appeal to the gullible but that it works.
What would you say the likelihood of Phat reading the book and arriving at the position that he can accept that the Jesus of the New Testament is a creation of the human mind?
Do you think that anyone who would quote that review/blurb as a recommendation for the book would be able to accept the fact that the Bible™ is 100% a human creation and so is each and every God found in the Bible, as well as the character Jesus found in the Bible?
That does not mean there is no value in the content of the stories. The SOURCE though is simply unknown humans over thousands of years.

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by nwr, posted 12-10-2021 4:28 PM nwr has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by nwr, posted 12-10-2021 7:21 PM jar has not replied
 Message 19 by Phat, posted 12-11-2021 9:19 AM jar has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 367 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 26 of 137 (889680)
12-11-2021 10:18 AM
Reply to: Message 25 by Phat
12-11-2021 10:07 AM


Re: Believing In Things Which Can Be Quantified
Phat writes:
well jar seems to think that God is a purely human invention. Or at least the Bible is.
Stop misrepresenting what I have posted Phat.
All of the evidence shows that the Bible, all of the many mutually exclusive Bibles are simply a human creation.
It has nothing to do with belief Phat; it is what the evidence shows.
And again, all of the evidence shows that every god and God that is included in the stories is also the product of human creation.
It has nothing to do with belief Phat; it is what the evidence shows.
Is the description and characteristics of the god in Genesis 1 the same as the description and characteristics of the God in Genesis 2&3?
How many different canons each listing a different selection of tales that will comprise the Bible exist?
It has nothing to do with belief Phat; it is what the evidence shows.
AbE:
Phat you are illustrating exactly the behavior I specified as the issue; you place BELIEF over evidence, SOURCE over content and FANTASY over reality.
Edited by jar, : see AbE:

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by Phat, posted 12-11-2021 10:07 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by Phat, posted 12-11-2021 10:27 AM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 367 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 28 of 137 (889682)
12-11-2021 10:31 AM
Reply to: Message 27 by Phat
12-11-2021 10:27 AM


Re: Believing In Things Which Can Be Quantified
Phat writes:
So you believe in inconclusive evidence then? Or do you believe that the evidence you cite is conclusive....in which case you would not be a believer...except in evidence. Things are not always as they seem.
You either trust God or you don't.
And by the way, how can evidence be presented that disproves a Deity which cannot be objectively quantified?
You really are dense.
I believe that GOD exists.
That is a belief.
That the Bible and all (including every religion and every religious text) are human creations is a conclusion based on all of the evidence.

My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by Phat, posted 12-11-2021 10:27 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by Phat, posted 12-11-2021 10:35 AM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 367 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 30 of 137 (889684)
12-11-2021 10:41 AM
Reply to: Message 29 by Phat
12-11-2021 10:35 AM


Re: Believing In Things Which Can Be Quantified
Phat writes:
Well bully for you. All of the evidence shows that your belief begins and ends with your human mind. And yet I reject that evidence as valid.
Sheesh Phat.
Beliefs have no evidence in support; they are all simply the creation of a mind.
That is the definition of a believe.
There is NO evidence that supports my beliefs and can never be.
Phat;
we have been down this path a brazillion times and you still continue to misrepresent what others say.
You cannot reject evidence that simply does not exist; even making such a claim just makes you look silly.

My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by Phat, posted 12-11-2021 10:35 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by Phat, posted 12-11-2021 10:43 AM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 367 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(2)
Message 32 of 137 (889686)
12-11-2021 10:49 AM
Reply to: Message 31 by Phat
12-11-2021 10:43 AM


Re: Believing In Things Which Can Be Quantified
Phat writes:
God Himself is the evidence which you reject by definition. You limit Him to evidence.
Too absolutely silly Phat.
Do you ever think before you right such stupid shit?
If God is the evidence as you claim then place the evidence on the table to be examined?
YOU claim God is the evidence.
Buddha?
Thor?
Coyote?
Raven?
They are all Gods Phat.
And just as with the God from Genesis 1 and the God of Genesis 2&3 and the Jesus of the New Testament the only evidence to support them are the stories written by humans.
You claim the God is evidence.
Well then produce that evidence.

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by Phat, posted 12-11-2021 10:43 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by Phat, posted 12-11-2021 11:23 AM jar has replied
 Message 38 by Phat, posted 12-11-2021 11:31 AM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 367 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 43 of 137 (889699)
12-11-2021 11:43 AM
Reply to: Message 35 by Phat
12-11-2021 11:23 AM


Re: Believing In Things Which Can Be Quantified
Phat writes:
But then again, you don't even know which one is the real God.
But I can and do know that ALL of the evidence shows that if GOD exists it is not any of the God(s) or god(s) found in any of the so-called religious literature including the Bibles.
That is a conclusion Phat supported by ALL of the evidence.
So, what can be said?
I profess a belief that there is a GOD and that I will be judged after I die based on my behavior. I may be forgiven my behavior but if so then that is simply by the Grace of GOD.
I am a Christian. That is supported by the evidence that I have been continuously listed as a member of a recognized apostolic branch of Club Christian.
The evidence shows that all religions are just philosophical paths created, revised and supported by the members of that religion or Chapter of that religion.
Only the first of those is a BELIEF and it is unsupported by any evidence. The latter are conclusions and supported by evidence.
As I and others have asked repeatedly, "How do you confirm that you know or commune with some real God?"

My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by Phat, posted 12-11-2021 11:23 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by Phat, posted 12-11-2021 2:55 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 367 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 45 of 137 (889701)
12-11-2021 11:47 AM
Reply to: Message 38 by Phat
12-11-2021 11:31 AM


Re: Believing In Things Which Can Be Quantified
Phat writes:
IIRC, you were always a fan of the Nicene Creed. Is Thor mentioned? How about Raven? Buddha? Allah? Didn't think so. Quit being a pansy relativist and take a stand for once in your life. Grow a pair...(publically) and quit arguing all sides of the argument. You come across as a definite non-believer. And you don't help spread the message. You only spread critical thinking, logic, and evidence. Which won't get anyone to Philadelphia much less Heaven.
Sheesh Phat.
The Nicene Creed is simply one of the defining documents of the Christian Faith. It is applicable only to Christianity and has NOTHING to do beyond that limitation.
I have stated that I am a Christian.
That is also supported by the evidence as I have listed many many times.

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by Phat, posted 12-11-2021 11:31 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 367 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 51 of 137 (889717)
12-11-2021 3:08 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by Phat
12-11-2021 2:55 PM


if there is Evidence no belief is required.
Phat writes:
You have evidence that if God exists, (I am assuming this includes Jesus as God)this means God/Jesus is unlike anything ever taught or written about Him. Same with Coyote, Raven, Bunny, Armadillo, Spaghetti Monster, and Allah dat other human malarkey.
Phat, there is absolutely NO evidence for any GOD other than human created stories.
We have absolutely no way to even guess what GOD might be like based on ANY evidence.
We do know that the Bible characterizations of God and god and Jesus vary from story to story which is evidence that what is written is the creation of the author, editors and translators.
The above holds true for any and every God(s) and god(s) that have ever been discussed in any format.
What I am saying is that there is no more validity to any description of Jesus that there is of Raven.
You've been shown the evidence and reasoned argument a brazillion times.
If GOD exists we cannot say anything about his characteristics that has any validity.
If God exists we can say anything about his characteristics with equal validity; and of course, humans have done just that.
That's why every single religion is equally valid and every single god, Raven or Coyote or Jesus or Ganesha, is equally valid.
Edited by jar, : fix sub-title.

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by Phat, posted 12-11-2021 2:55 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 52 by Phat, posted 12-12-2021 3:41 PM jar has replied
 Message 53 by Phat, posted 12-12-2021 3:44 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 367 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 54 of 137 (889738)
12-12-2021 3:53 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by Phat
12-12-2021 3:41 PM


Re: if there is Evidence no belief is required.
Phat writes:
If so, then all that you really believe in is yourself. (and evidence)
No Phat.
Stop misrepresenting what I say!
I don't believe in anything that has evidence; I form conclusions based on the evidence.
I don't believe in myself.
I do believe that there is a GOD and that I will be judged after I die.
Phat writes:
It does not matter if the Episcopalians have you on their roster.
You joke?
The fact that I am a Christian is very much supported by the reality that I am a registered member of a recognized Chapter of Club Christian.
Phat writes:
Based on what you yourself said, all religions are just human-approved clubs anyway.
Almost. All of the evidence shows that religions are just human creations.
Phat writes:
I have my evidence and it is internal. You always ask me how do I know it is God or Jesus....and I say why don't you ask Him?
Try thinking Phat.
Tell us how?
Phat writes:
Just because you never park your brain at the door does not mean that others, many of the great men of faith had no problems surrendering.
That's true and supported by the fact that there are thousands of different "True™ Religions™"
Edited by jar, : appalin grmmar

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by Phat, posted 12-12-2021 3:41 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
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jar
Member (Idle past 367 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 56 of 137 (889740)
12-12-2021 7:41 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by Phat
12-12-2021 3:44 PM


Re: if there is Evidence no belief is required.
Phat writes:
Were the stories all written at the same time? Why do you rule out progressive understanding?
Why do I rule out typical carny snake-oil tactics?
Mainly because "progressive understanding" is simply yet another truly silly sophomoric self-serving dishonest methods of conning the rubes, palming the pea, fixing the deck, misdirecting attention tactics used by all conmen and card-sharks.
Stop and think Phat.
Look at the examples.
Review the evolution of the "Great Commission".
I dismiss it for the same reason I don't buy lottery tickets, read horoscopes, ask the Ouija board or trust what the "Magic 8 Ball" says; I'm not that gullible.
And of course, the stories were not all written at the same time and it's likely that all were also revised to meet the needs of the period politics and dogma as well as the needs of the various Christian Cults.
It is simply more evidence that it is all just the product of human invention.

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by Phat, posted 12-12-2021 3:44 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 367 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 67 of 137 (889931)
12-16-2021 9:11 AM
Reply to: Message 65 by Phat
12-15-2021 9:06 PM


you keep making posts about what you think I said.
Stop it.
Phat writes:
jar claims t be Christian based on official membership in a known club.
As always, you show you are simply unable to read with understanding what I and others write. Slow down. Stop and actually read what people post.
I am a registered member of a recognized Chapter of Club Christian and have been so documented for over three quarters of a century.
The Episcopal Church is and has been a recognized part of the Anglican Communion. That is a fact.
Membership in that chapter of Club Christian is documented in the official reports of each parish and as a person moves around the country his or her membership is formally transferred.
I am a Christian based on evidence.
Phat writes:
You could also well argue that I don't know God based on my increasingly selfish and unloving behavior and actions.
And with the very next sentence you show that you still don't understand the basics.
Being a Christian has absolutely nothing to do with knowing or not knowing God.
Phat writes:
In fact, I am worse than jar because I *do* claim that God is knowable whereby he does not, citing no evidence nor way to know God.
Again, what I actually say is that no one has ever presented a model, method, mechanism, process or procedure that would allow someone to know GOD.
What does exist is a myriad of models, methods, mechanisms, processes and procedures that lets people describe the god(s) or God(s) that humans create.
Phat writes:
I would argue that Jesus Himself said that the road to salvation (and perhaps knowledge or enlightenment) is narrow and few find it while the broad path of what He calls destruction is clogged with masses of humanity.
No; knowledge and wisdom are not mentioned in that passage and in fact the passage is so vague as to have an infinite number of interpretations.
For now though you really really need to throw Jesus and all the gods away and concentrate solely on your health.

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by Phat, posted 12-15-2021 9:06 PM Phat has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 367 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 87 of 137 (890030)
12-22-2021 8:24 AM
Reply to: Message 84 by Phat
12-22-2021 3:01 AM


Re: About characters in books....
You keep posting things I said in replies to others.
Phat writes:
Both you and jar seem unable to see God at all....as more than a character in a book, at any rate. And you are hopefully joking when you claim that Mr.Deity even understands God enough to attempt to mimic Him. I already know your reply! (If jar doesnt beat you to it) Oh wait....he already did!
jar writes:
The point Phat is that the Gods of scripture are just human constructs reflecting what people of an era and culture thought a God would be like. They created Gods that were like the strong man, or prince, or tyrant or friend, or whatever struck their corporate fancy.
If Christianity is to have any relevance and value then Christians need to understand it as a path, a calling, and(a) job description.
GOD, if GOD exists will not be like any of the Gods we have invented.
I will never convince anyone at EvC that believers (some, at any rate) have had an encounter with God. I ask myself why I even keep trying.
But Phat, you really don't try. I and others point to the evidence while you NEVER bring either evidence or reasoned argument to support your assertions.
Facts.
The God described in Genesis 1 is totally different and mutually exclusive of the God found in Genesis 2&3. Go through the Bible and what you find are descriptions of God that are tailored to fit the narrative. There is absolutely NO uniformity or consistency.
Christianity in fact is about the most inconsistent of ALL the major religions when it comes to descriptions of the God they claim to worship.
You don't try to convince anyone other than yourself. If you are going to change someone's mind and position, you need to offer them some tangible reason such as evidence or a reasoned argument.
You claim to have actually met god and to know god yet every other believer in every other religion can and does make the same claim. What factors might make your claim more valid that that of a Buddhist, Taoist, Hindu, Muslim, Jew or Satanist?

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by Phat, posted 12-22-2021 3:01 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 90 by Phat, posted 12-22-2021 10:30 AM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 367 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 93 of 137 (890041)
12-22-2021 11:21 AM
Reply to: Message 90 by Phat
12-22-2021 10:30 AM


Re: About characters in books....
Phat writes:
You always reframe the issues based on what evidence you have (what the Bible says) and on logic, reason, and *skepticism*.
No Phat, that is NOT what I have ever said.
Phat writes:
You seem to frame the issue presupposing that
1) God is found only in scripture. There are many mutually exclusive descriptions of Him.
2) God can only be found in the books.
3) "the Gods of scripture are just human constructs reflecting what people of an era and culture thought a God would be like"
Again, that is NOT what I presuppose; that is exactly what ALL of the evidence shows.
It is a conclusion Phat rather than a presumption. Can you even understand the difference between those two words and concepts?
Phat writes:
Of that list, only the Jew is usually included with the Christians.
You really are crazy; Jews KNOW that God has no son. Period. Full stop.
Do you ever think about what you post?

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by Phat, posted 12-22-2021 10:30 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 95 by Phat, posted 12-22-2021 11:37 AM jar has replied

  
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