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Author Topic:   How the Bible Actually Works
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1 of 137 (889640)
12-10-2021 10:09 AM


The full title of this book, which I am listening to over and over on audible as my nightcap of late, is How the Bible Actually Works: In Which I Explain How An Ancient, Ambiguous, and Diverse Book Leads Us to Wisdom Rather Than Answers—and Why That's Great News by Peter Enns. I just ordered the book in paperback as I want to highlight each chapter and what the author has said that impacts me.
Aside from lowering my blood sugar, this book has been necessary for my wounded and haunted soul this past month.
I can really relate to this author. Unlike our resident curmudgeon, (jar) this man has not only read the Bible thoroughly and taught courses on it but has contributed to encyclopedias as an established (though controversial) authority on the subject. I needed this book and this conversation as I have drifted off of the essence of my faith.
Here is how Amazon describes the book:
Controversial evangelical Bible scholar, popular blogger and podcast host of The Bible for Normal People, and author of The Bible Tells Me So and The Sin of Certainty explains that the Bible is not an instruction manual or rule book but a powerful learning tool that nurtures our spiritual growth by refusing to provide us with easy answers but instead forces us to acquire wisdom.
For many Christians, the Bible is a how-to manual filled with literal truths about belief that must be strictly followed. But the Bible is not static, Peter Enns argues. It does not hold easy answers to the perplexing questions and issues that confront us in our daily lives. Rather, the Bible is a dynamic instrument for study that not only offers an abundance of insights but provokes us to find our own answers to spiritual questions, cultivating God’s wisdom within us.
“The Bible becomes a confusing mess when we expect it to function as a rulebook for faith. But when we allow the Bible to determine our expectations, we see that Wisdom, not answers, is the Bible’s true subject matter,” writes Enns. This distinction, he points out, is important because when we come to the Bible expecting it to be a textbook intended by God to give us unwavering certainty about our faith, we are actually creating problems for ourselves. The Bible, in other words, really isn’t the problem; having the wrong expectation is what interferes with our reading.
Rather than considering the Bible as an ancient book weighed down with problems, flaws, and contradictions that must be defended by modern readers, Enns offers a vision of the holy scriptures as an inspired and empowering resource to help us better understand how to live as a person of faith today.
How the Bible Actually Works makes clear that there is no one right way to read the Bible. Moving us beyond the damaging idea that “being right” is the most important measure of faith, Enns’s freeing approach to Bible study helps us to instead focus on pursuing enlightenment and building our relationship with God—which is exactly what the Bible was designed to do.
I don't expect much conversation around this dusty old place full of self-proclaimed intellectual skeptics and antitheists who imagine evidence-based humanism as a worthy substitute for Biblical wisdom, but I had to start this Book Nook topic in case anyone desires to have a conversation on this book.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by PaulK, posted 12-10-2021 10:21 AM Phat has replied
 Message 12 by Tanypteryx, posted 12-10-2021 3:05 PM Phat has not replied
 Message 13 by Percy, posted 12-10-2021 3:19 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 4 of 137 (889643)
12-10-2021 10:39 AM
Reply to: Message 2 by jar
12-10-2021 10:18 AM


Enns is not a Biblical Christian
As far as I am aware, Enns is not a Biblical Christian (if our definition in any way agrees)
Here is a brief biography:
Dr. Peter Enns (PhD, Harvard University) is Abram S. Clemens Professor of Biblical Studies at Eastern University, St. Davids, PA. He has taught courses at several other institutions including Harvard University, Fuller Theological Seminary, and Princeton Theological Seminary. Enns is a frequent contributor to journals and encyclopedias, and is the author of several books, including, The Bible Tells Me So: Why Defending Scripture Has Made Us Unable to Read It (HarperOne), The Bible and the Believer: How to Read the Bible Critically and Religiously (with Marc Brettler and Daniel Harrington, Oxford University Press), Inspiration and Incarnation: Evangelicals and The Problem of the Old Testament (Baker), and The Evolution of Adam: What the Bible Does and Doesn't
Say about Human Origins (Baker).
Perhaps we should start by asking what a "Biblical Christian" actually is and is not.
I'll tell you one thing. Enns respects the character (and as you would say "various God characters") behind the book (Bible) and is far more relatable to me than a critic who claims to be a believer yet never addresses the wisdom of the book beyond direct evidence.
I am also inspired by Dr.Enns podcast: The Bible For Normal People
I can't really judge or critique the man based only on source and biography, but I am impressed with the content of his book and enjoyed his podcast. He is most definitely not a racist and that alone encourages me to keep listening. And quite frankly your explanations lack any sort of hope or integrity for a believer. Not to get personal...I still like you as a person, but your content is dismal.
Wikipedia explains the content generated by this author more thoroughly. After reading it, I am surprised that you do not know of him. He is an Episcopalian and was expelled from "Biblical Christian" institutions for being too unorthodox.
Wiki: Peter Enns
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by jar, posted 12-10-2021 10:18 AM jar has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by Percy, posted 12-10-2021 3:32 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 5 of 137 (889644)
12-10-2021 10:49 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by PaulK
12-10-2021 10:21 AM


Surprise Surprise
Wow. You *did* surprise me! As soon as I get my paperback copy of this book (should arrive Monday) I will highlight the parts of the book which inspired me as I listen on Audible night after night.
I will have to check out his blog. I just found the podcast and enjoy it. It gives me hope that I can someday be a rational (and loving) Christian and not a judgemental and hateful G.O.P one.
Other noteworthy content from (or about) the author:
‘The Sin of Certainty:’ Peter Enns’ journey from belief to trust
This link is noteworthy because it is a scathing critique of Dr.Enns from AiG: A Critique of Dr. Peter Enns’ Book The Bible Tells Me So(Answers In Genesis)
You may be reading the Bible wrong. Pete Enns says the Bible itself shows a better way.
Edited by Phat, : added jabberwocky

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by PaulK, posted 12-10-2021 10:21 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by PaulK, posted 12-10-2021 11:07 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 10 by AZPaul3, posted 12-10-2021 2:54 PM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 19 of 137 (889672)
12-11-2021 9:19 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by jar
12-10-2021 6:28 PM


Trust The Source rather than Ditching Him
jar writes:
What would you say the likelihood of Phat reading the book and arriving at the position that he can accept that the Jesus of the New Testament is a creation of the human mind?
So far no dice, Charlie. I have listened to the book on Audible at least once. It is narrated by the author, I believe. Granted my Audible listens are not scholarly sessions but bedtime sessions which I use to calm my mind from a hard day's work and get some sleep. For this reason, I listen over and over again to the book....sleeping through some of it yet rewinding and listening again. My point? What this author says is more acceptable to me largely because he comes across as trusting God rather than simply presenting God as a "character" in a book. We can blame Martin Luther for starting a reformation that ended up producing critical thinkers that reject the tradition of God and Jesus as actual characters known and trusted by many authors throughout many ages in History.
How so? One might ask.
Until I get the actual paperback copies of two books that I am ordering from the author, I cannot quote directly how he explains and believes, but be patient, grasshopper. (Of course, I don't expect to move you off of your position since you have already concluded that there are "many god characters" within the Bible and seem incapable or unwilling to conclude that the book is about trusting and knowing God so much as it is about trusting and knowing yourself in preparation for what *you* are expected to do in this life. An anthology of anthologies as it were. ) Off-topic and for the record, it is why I consider critics such as Richard Carrier inspired by the devil. The author explains his take in the second book which I am now listening to. (The Sin Of Certainty)
Percy writes:
I'm a little concerned that the blurb might not be accurate because it describes him as evangelical but describes his views as anything but.
Without reading the book(s) you will have to dig a little deeper.
In my link, ‘The Sin of Certainty:’ Peter Enns’ journey from belief to trust the commentator had this to say in his review:
Alan Bean writes:
...Professor Enns is the product of a very conservative corner of American evangelicalism and therefore he managed to avoid any serious encounter with agnosticism, atheism, non-Christian religions, or the physical sciences until he did doctoral work at Harvard in the early 1990s. He was surprised to learn that most of the non-Christians he encountered were genuinely nice people. He also discovered that his Jewish professors in biblical Hebrew didn’t read the ancient texts like the Adam and Eve narratives in Genesis the way Enns had learned to read them.
Returning to Westminster Theological Seminary (his alma mater) as a professor, Enns attempted, gingerly at first, to loosen things up a bit. Everything was fine at first, but when the professor drafted a peace treaty between Charles Darwin and Christian orthodoxy things got ugly fast. His fellow professors were supportive, but the administration tightened the screws until Enns had no choice to resign. His experience is depressingly common in the tortured world of evangelical academics.
I think that Professor Enns started out as a product of conservative evangelicalism and then was open-minded enough during the course of his studies to listen to people, unlike the conservative evangelicals. Once fired from Westminster Theological Seminary, he had a dark night of the soul crises. He and his wife both felt rejected by the conservative community from which they had been ostracized.
The commentator continues:
Enns concludes the exegetical portion of his book with extensive treatments of the preacher of Ecclesiastes and the trials of Job. (It should be noticed that Enns doesn’t use technical terms like “exegetical,” “imprecatory,” “hermeneutical” or “eschatological.” This is a book for ordinary folks.)
Ecclesiastes boils down to this: “Trust God even when you don’t know what you believe, even when all before you is absurd.”
Job takes things to the next level. “My life is leaking out of me,” he tells God. “Why aren’t you true to your own promises? If we have to play by your rules, O Lord, why don’t you?”
Significantly, God never answers Job’s questions. That’s because the “Bible isn’t a Christian owner’s manual. God remains shrouded in mystery, inaccessible, beyond our mental reach.” You can trust this kind of God, but you will never understand him.
Believing that God is Immortal, Invisible and Only Wise is OK, Enns admits, but it is so easy that even a demon can do it. Trust is about being “all in.”
Being that many if not most of you here are liberal-leaning, you more easily ditched "God" in favor of critical thinking and evidence. Enns seems to have doubled down on trusting the God of scripture rather than attempting to redefine and frame his understanding through his own human wisdom. Of course to be fair, we *all* use our human wisdom whether we are believers or not.
As he moved through his dark night of the soul, Enns gradually let go of his inherited preoccupation with right thinking. “These experiences have drawn me out of my safe haven of certainty and onto a path of trusting God — not trusting God that my thinking is correct or soon would be, but trusting God regardless of how certain I might feel.”
This is why I disagree with scholars such as Carrier. He trusts his own intellect and tosses God away. jar must have convinced him!
A believer does not simply critically evaluate the Bible and make their own conclusions.
An unbeliever might lie about what they believe and/or mislead others into throwing God away and drawing their own conclusions from secular logic and reason.
Edited by Phat, : spellcheck

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by jar, posted 12-10-2021 6:28 PM jar has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by ringo, posted 12-11-2021 11:27 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 20 of 137 (889673)
12-11-2021 9:32 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by nwr
12-10-2021 7:21 PM


Believe or Not
nwr writes:
It is hard to persuade people who have never learned to think for themselves.
True, but keep in mind that believers don't simply read every book on every religion as well as psychology. Believers seek God, not becoming free from Him.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by nwr, posted 12-10-2021 7:21 PM nwr has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by ringo, posted 12-11-2021 11:34 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 21 of 137 (889674)
12-11-2021 9:35 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by dwise1
12-10-2021 7:59 PM


Re: Surprise Surprise
dwise1 writes:
In all this time, I know of not one single creationist who has ever bothered to read it as they have instead attacked me viciously for things that I have done nor written.
Not sure I fully understand. For the record, I consider myself a Cosmological Creationist only in that I believe that God created it all. As to the particulars, I don't really care. I do believe that God wants me to seek Him and know Him and trust Him. I like Enns because he never left God. He only left certainty. I can fully relate.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by dwise1, posted 12-10-2021 7:59 PM dwise1 has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 22 of 137 (889675)
12-11-2021 9:40 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by nwr
12-10-2021 4:28 PM


Believing In Things Which Can Be Quantified
nwr writes:
I did not see anything that persuaded me to buy the book...
That's because you would be more inclined to believe that "In the Beginning, Math...
Enns might argue that God will never be understood...and that now he can live with that.
It's all about trust. Not certainty.
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by nwr, posted 12-10-2021 4:28 PM nwr has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by nwr, posted 12-11-2021 9:52 AM Phat has replied
 Message 41 by ringo, posted 12-11-2021 11:36 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 23 of 137 (889676)
12-11-2021 9:47 AM
Reply to: Message 14 by Percy
12-10-2021 3:32 PM


Sola Scriptura vs Prima scriptura
I'm not sure if John Wesley believed this, but apparently, Methodists and Anglicans do. (collectively at least)
Wiki writes:
Prima scriptura is the Christian doctrine that canonized scripture is "first" or "above all" other sources of divine revelation. Implicitly, this view suggests that, besides canonical scripture, there can be other guides for what a believer should believe and how they should live, such as the Holy Spirit, created order, traditions, charismatic gifts, mystical insight, angelic visitations, conscience, common sense, the views of experts, the spirit of the times or something else. Prima scriptura suggests that ways of knowing or understanding God and his will that do not originate from canonized scripture are perhaps helpful in interpreting that scripture, but testable by the canon and correctable by it, if they seem to contradict the scriptures. Prima sciptura is upheld by the Anglican and Methodist traditions of Christianity, which suggest that Scripture is the primary source for Christian doctrine, but that "tradition, experience, and reason" can nurture the Christian religion as long as they are in harmony with the Bible.
Unbelievers such as Carrier throw not only God but the Bible and scripture fully away. By what map do they seek truth?

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by Percy, posted 12-10-2021 3:32 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by ringo, posted 12-11-2021 11:39 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 25 of 137 (889678)
12-11-2021 10:07 AM
Reply to: Message 24 by nwr
12-11-2021 9:52 AM


Re: Believing In Things Which Can Be Quantified
well jar seems to think that God is a purely human invention. Or at least the Bible is.
Do you?

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by nwr, posted 12-11-2021 9:52 AM nwr has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by jar, posted 12-11-2021 10:18 AM Phat has replied
 Message 44 by nwr, posted 12-11-2021 11:44 AM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 27 of 137 (889681)
12-11-2021 10:27 AM
Reply to: Message 26 by jar
12-11-2021 10:18 AM


Re: Believing In Things Which Can Be Quantified
So you believe in inconclusive evidence then? Or do you believe that the evidence you cite is conclusive....in which case you would not be a believer...except in evidence. Things are not always as they seem.
You either trust God or you don't.
And by the way, how can evidence be presented that disproves a Deity which cannot be objectively quantified?
Wiki writes:
Prima sciptura is upheld by the Anglican and Methodist traditions of Christianity, which suggest that Scripture is the primary source for Christian doctrine, but that "tradition, experience, and reason" can nurture the Christian religion as long as they are in harmony with the Bible.
You seem to think that it is more important to be in harmony with "evidence" rather than either the Bible or its "characters". How can you call yourself a believer when you trivialize the source? You think that some Episcopalian ritual branded you a believer for life?
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by jar, posted 12-11-2021 10:18 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by jar, posted 12-11-2021 10:31 AM Phat has replied
 Message 60 by dwise1, posted 12-15-2021 2:29 PM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 29 of 137 (889683)
12-11-2021 10:35 AM
Reply to: Message 28 by jar
12-11-2021 10:31 AM


Re: Believing In Things Which Can Be Quantified
jar writes:
I believe that GOD exists.
That is a belief.
Well bully for you. All of the evidence shows that your belief begins and ends with your human mind. And yet I reject that evidence as valid.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by jar, posted 12-11-2021 10:31 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by jar, posted 12-11-2021 10:41 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 31 of 137 (889685)
12-11-2021 10:43 AM
Reply to: Message 30 by jar
12-11-2021 10:41 AM


Re: Believing In Things Which Can Be Quantified
There is NO evidence that supports my beliefs and can never be.
God Himself is the evidence which you reject by definition. You limit Him to evidence.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by jar, posted 12-11-2021 10:41 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by jar, posted 12-11-2021 10:49 AM Phat has replied
 Message 59 by Percy, posted 12-13-2021 7:54 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 35 of 137 (889691)
12-11-2021 11:23 AM
Reply to: Message 32 by jar
12-11-2021 10:49 AM


Re: Believing In Things Which Can Be Quantified
The only possible bit of objective evidence which I could produce is myself.(changed and humbled)
So far my "evidence" is quite shoddy and inconclusive.
GOD could give you evidence if you would park your brain long enough to trust Him. But then again, you don't even know which one is the real God.
Or maybe there is a slim possibility that you do, but just like to argue and challenge others to think. I certainly don't think that Satan has you just yet.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by jar, posted 12-11-2021 10:49 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by jar, posted 12-11-2021 11:43 AM Phat has replied
 Message 46 by nwr, posted 12-11-2021 11:49 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 36 of 137 (889692)
12-11-2021 11:25 AM
Reply to: Message 34 by Tanypteryx
12-11-2021 11:20 AM


Floyd The Barber?
Pink Floyd was always one of my favorite bands. Religious nutters would insist upon Charles Wesley, but Floyd likely would unite a larger audience.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by Tanypteryx, posted 12-11-2021 11:20 AM Tanypteryx has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 38 of 137 (889694)
12-11-2021 11:31 AM
Reply to: Message 32 by jar
12-11-2021 10:49 AM


Re: Believing In Things Which Can Be Quantified
jar writes:
YOU claim God is the evidence.
Buddha?
Thor?
Coyote?
Raven?
They are all Gods Phat.
Silly jar. here is only One God. I believe that Jesus is the One.
IIRC, you were always a fan of the Nicene Creed. Is Thor mentioned? How about Raven? Buddha? Allah? Didn't think so. Quit being a pansy relativist and take a stand for once in your life. Grow a pair...(publically) and quit arguing all sides of the argument. You come across as a definite non-believer. And you don't help spread the message. You only spread critical thinking, logic, and evidence. Which won't get anyone to Philadelphia much less Heaven. (Although I COULD be wrong)

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by jar, posted 12-11-2021 10:49 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by jar, posted 12-11-2021 11:47 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
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