EvC Forum: Testing The Financial Apologists

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Topic: Testing The Financial Apologists

Theodoric

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Message 106 of 328 (896278)
08-04-2022 10:42 AM

Reply to: Message 104 by Phat
08-04-2022 12:28 AM

Still no support for your ravings. Just more ravings.

I was hoping you could present the actual Nixon quote and explain what he meant in the global context of 1971. Or is that beyond your abilities?

But it now seems to me that Gold itself is being defended against speculators.

How? By who?

I don't have facts offhand to back this up except my belief that Gold is and was the only real money that is not debt-based and thus someone else's obligation. Note how much Gold is held by countries:

Irrelevant. Gold is a commodity. So is oil. That is why we have the strategic oil reserve. Gold is not a currency it is a commodity.

If a man has gold, and the value was allowed unfettered market speculation, he could profit from inflated currencies and also hide his true assets from government oversight.

You can have gold. All you want. How are you going to spend it? What are you going to do when speculators drive the price up and down. Ever hear of the Hunt brothers and silver?

Because Gold holds its value much better than either currencies or blockchains. This is true of hard assets like commodities in general

Really? Provide evidence.

though Gold is the backbone of Central Bank backing.

Really? Provide source for this.

If one buys small quantities of precious metals they slip below the radar and are not liable for capital gains.

How does owning gold make you liable for capital gains? Do you understand the tax system?
There may be points where a bail-in is the best of all possible options. Do you know of any real-world examples in the US or is this just something you heard on youtube?

Money that is not subject to government control in order to bail out the system through bailing in the assets of banks.

There is not money without government. Please define public vs private money.

Let's just say I'm paranoid of being controlled.

By who? Sounds like you are simply mentally ill.

I'm honest apart from the fact that some things should be kept private and not part of a giant pool of money controlled by governments.

I am still confused by what you mean by that it it sounds like you are too.

Gold still backs fiat money indirectly

How? If the US liquidated all its gold what do you think would happen? What if we sold all of the oil we own or all of every other commodity the US owns?

A 5000-year track record is nothing to dismiss so lightly, however.

How has that track record compared with other commodities and currencies?

You have not answered anything I asked with sources and data. All you have done is recite things you heard on youtube with absolutely nothing to support your wild-ass ravings. Typical. How do you expect anyone to treat you seriously when you cannot support even your most basic claims?

Edited by Theodoric, : new subtitle

Edited by Theodoric, : spell no correctly

Edited by Theodoric, : Date

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?

This message is a reply to:
	Message 104 by Phat, posted 08-04-2022 12:28 AM		Phat has seen this message but not replied

ringo

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Posts: 20940

From: frozen wasteland

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Message 107 of 328 (896280)
08-04-2022 11:52 AM

Reply to: Message 96 by Phat
08-03-2022 5:21 PM

Re: Redefining The American Dream

Phat writes:

These days, One could nearly say that the rich hijacked the dream my parents had.

And you're helping them do it.

Phat writes:

Perhaps your idea of an American/Canadian Dream is nothing more than (that)everyone has a roof over their head, enough food, and basic needs such as medical, dental, and clothing being affordable.

How can you be comfortable with more than that when you know other people have less than that?

Phat writes:

By the time the public includes everyone in the world and guarantees no hunger or homelessness, we all will ave a very spartan living standard.

Will you ever listen? When you pull up the bottom, you pull up everybody.

Phat writes:

To me that is not progress, but it is empathy, I suppose.

For you, a little empathy would definitely be progress.

Phat writes:

But then we still have the thieves. They will always take what they can get and wont care who they hurt or whose stuff it is.

You mean the rich? Whom you support.

Phat writes:

I suppose Jesus would not want us fighting them or locking them up. Comments?

Well, He would want you to visit them in prison.

He would also want you to forgive them, not advocate having armed guards to shoot them.

"Let me win. But if I cannot win, let me be brave in the attempt."
-- motto of the Special Olympians

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ringo

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Posts: 20940

From: frozen wasteland

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Message 108 of 328 (896281)
08-04-2022 12:01 PM

Reply to: Message 104 by Phat
08-04-2022 12:28 AM

Re: Ringo needs to define the Side Of The Public

Phat writes:

... some things should be kept private and not part of a giant pool of money controlled by governments.

You'd rather have them controlled by ultra-rich monsters like Trump? And he wasn't even very good at stealing from you.

"Let me win. But if I cannot win, let me be brave in the attempt."
-- motto of the Special Olympians

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ringo

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Posts: 20940

From: frozen wasteland

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Message 109 of 328 (896757)
08-19-2022 11:42 AM

Reply to: Message 39 by Phat
07-19-2022 10:02 AM

Re: Making A Case For The claims of Peter Schiff

Phat writes:

(And I think it's odd that you mention "we" as if the EvC peanut gallery is the Supreme Court. I've noticed that a lot of you use the same terminology.

You all are wrong about finance in general.

"We" simply refers to those of us who are wrong about finance, O Great Guru. We are monolithic in being wrong.

Phat writes:

It may take me a while to prove it, using my own words. But I will try.

At the rate you're going, even if you were born yesterday you would not live long enough.

"Let me win. But if I cannot win, let me be brave in the attempt."
-- motto of the Special Olympians

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Theodoric

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From: Northwest, WI, USA

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Message 110 of 328 (896760)
08-19-2022 2:44 PM

Reply to: Message 109 by ringo
08-19-2022 11:42 AM

Re: Making A Case For The claims of Peter Schiff

Still waiting for him to show us how well gold and crypto are doing.

ABE
Seems to be another major crypto crash today. Funny how we don't have to worry about that with fiat currencies.

Edited by Theodoric, .

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?

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	Message 109 by ringo, posted 08-19-2022 11:42 AM		ringo has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
	Message 111 by Phat, posted 08-20-2022 7:24 AM		Theodoric has replied

Phat

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From: Denver,Colorado USA

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Message 111 of 328 (896762)
08-20-2022 7:24 AM

Reply to: Message 110 by Theodoric
08-19-2022 2:44 PM

Fiat Money Pros & Cons

Theodoric writes:

Seems to be another major crypto crash today. Funny how we don't have to worry about that with fiat currencies.

By and large you are right. Fiat Currencies are much more stable...largely because they are controlled by the Central Bank. Looking up a few sources I found a rational comparison list:
Fiat Money: Advantages and Disadvantages

First the advantages:

Provides the government with the capacity to exert considerable control over the economy through the monetary policy of the central bank

The Great Depression demonstrated how abandoning commodity money to print money out of thin air could effectively stimulate the economy

Fiat money is more practical than money tied to gold or silver because it does not depend on a finite resource that requires costly production

Population growth and increased economic activity would outpace the capacity of societies to mine precious metals

Now for the disadvantages:

It can lose its value due to inflation or become worthless during hyperinflation for the simplest reason that it is not backed up by physical reserves

History shows that some governments can have the propensity to overprint money, thus artificially increasing the money supply

Money is essentially created infinitely without intrinsically valuable commodity or more specifically, out of thin air at the expense of inflation

• It artificially lowers interest rates and provides incentives for taking excessive risks, thus leading to an escalating solvency crisis

Personally, I feel that the United States has "printed" more money than they should have.

Other nations have done the same thing, however. Perhaps this argument can be hypothetically settled by either an optimist or a pessimist.

How trustworthy is our government?

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).

This message is a reply to:
	Message 110 by Theodoric, posted 08-19-2022 2:44 PM		Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
	Message 112 by Theodoric, posted 08-20-2022 9:59 AM	Phat has replied
	Message 113 by Percy, posted 08-20-2022 10:20 AM	Phat has seen this message but not replied

Theodoric

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From: Northwest, WI, USA

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Message 112 of 328 (896763)
08-20-2022 9:59 AM

Reply to: Message 111 by Phat
08-20-2022 7:24 AM

Re: Fiat Money Pros & Cons

Who is Mathew Emmanuel Pineda? Why should I care about anything he says? What is the website Profulus? Why should I care what they post?
How about you try explaining in your own words and make a valid argument for each point?

I have plenty of arguments, but I am not going to discuss via link. Stop being a troll and learn a subject before you decide to expound on it.
I am still waiting for a response to Message 106 and how is your gold doing? Those cryptos are lighting the world on fire, aren't they? What was that about fiat money losing its value?
Stop being a troll and actually understand the shit you throw out. Yeah, I said it twice. Maybe you might actually listen at some point.

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?

This message is a reply to:
	Message 111 by Phat, posted 08-20-2022 7:24 AM		Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
	Message 114 by Phat, posted 08-20-2022 1:50 PM		Theodoric has replied

Percy

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Message 113 of 328 (896764)
08-20-2022 10:20 AM

Reply to: Message 111 by Phat
08-20-2022 7:24 AM

Re: Fiat Money Pros & Cons

You're still not making arguments in your own words and not giving any indication you understand the topic. Again, from the Forum Guidelines:

Avoid lengthy cut-n-pastes. Introduce the point in your own words and provide a link to your source as a reference. If your source is not on-line you may contact the Site Administrator to have it made available on-line.

I'm not going to comment on your post. You wouldn't actually respond, you'd just post something someone else said, either with a link or a copy/paste or a video.

--Percy

This message is a reply to:
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Phat

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Message 114 of 328 (896766)
08-20-2022 1:50 PM

Reply to: Message 112 by Theodoric
08-20-2022 9:59 AM

Re: Fiat Money Pros & Cons

It just so happens that this argument....wrritten by whosoever....puddentame for all I care...is very similar to one I would make. In my own words, Fiat Currency is backed by the government and is as stable as the government is.

"printing excessive money" which is a misnomer since money never gets printed in such large amounts...it gets "created into existence" as an added ledger on a balance sheet.

I argue that this type of financial strategy leaves the United States very vulnerable should the world lose trust in the dollar system. jar used to always say succinctly that "the bill *will* get paid" but neither you nor I want to be responsible for a bill in the many trillions of dollars. Of course every administration has its political projects that simply must be paid, be they green new deals or be they tax breaks for the captains of industry.

Personally, I think we got rid of reliance on oil and natural gas far too early. The rest of the world is using it as carefree as ever, and even if the United States were able to go green (net zero and all that) within twenty years, the planet is gonna go down as far as sustaining humans and their grand schemes. Give it 80 years. And I hate being so negative, but it irritates me why the US is the sacred cow at the expense of our hard-working people.

I think that the whole planet needs to make sacrifices equally. Tell that to the CCP!

So what does this have to do with fiat money you may ask?

It's all about stability. Is the US stable? Does our government care if they anger the working class? Are they creating inflation in effect to "pay the bill"?

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

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nwr

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Message 115 of 328 (896767)
08-20-2022 2:22 PM

Reply to: Message 114 by Phat
08-20-2022 1:50 PM

Re: Fiat Money Pros & Cons

Personally, I think we got rid of reliance on oil and natural gas far too early.

When did we get rid of it? And how? Or is this just your imagination running wild?

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

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Tanypteryx

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Message 116 of 328 (896768)
08-20-2022 2:45 PM

Reply to: Message 115 by nwr
08-20-2022 2:22 PM

Re: Fiat Money Pros & Cons

nwr writes:

Phat writes:

Personally, I think we got rid of reliance on oil and natural gas far too early.

When did we get rid of it? And how? Or is this just your imagination running wild?

Just looking at the size of oil and gas subsidies in the U.S. would indicate continuing reliance on oil and gas.

Phat and these dimwits he listens to all seem to think commodities have stable values and prices and that they don't fluctuate based on supply and demand. His understanding of finance and economics seems to be based entirely on fear, which is also his primary commodity.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq

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Theodoric

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Message 117 of 328 (896769)
08-20-2022 2:45 PM

Reply to: Message 114 by Phat
08-20-2022 1:50 PM

Re: Fiat Money Pros & Cons

CCP? Community College of Philadelphia?

What does any of this have to do with your prior rants? Argument and data please not just more baseless assertions Still waiting on an actual response to my previous post. Forget it. It is not going to happen so I will just write you off.

The deterioration of your mental state is truly disturbing. You need counseling. Start by staying off youtube and tiktok and actually read about subjects. Oh yeah crawl back under your rock.

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?

This message is a reply to:
	Message 114 by Phat, posted 08-20-2022 1:50 PM		Phat has seen this message but not replied

Percy

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Message 118 of 328 (896772)
08-21-2022 5:24 PM

Reply to: Message 114 by Phat
08-20-2022 1:50 PM

Re: Fiat Money Pros & Cons

Phat writes:

Tell that to the CCP!

Just curious if my guess is correct. Did you mean the CCCP, their name for the former Soviet Union?

--Percy

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kjsimons

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Message 119 of 328 (896773)
08-21-2022 5:46 PM

Reply to: Message 118 by Percy
08-21-2022 5:24 PM

Re: Fiat Money Pros & Cons

I used to collect stamps and so I was familiar with "CCCP" on Russian stamps but I think Phat is referring to "Chinese Communist Party" when using "CCP".

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	Message 120 by xongsmith, posted 08-21-2022 8:20 PM	kjsimons has not replied
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xongsmith

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Message 120 of 328 (896774)
08-21-2022 8:20 PM

Reply to: Message 119 by kjsimons
08-21-2022 5:46 PM

Re: Fiat Money Pros & Cons

yes.
and CCCP is pronounced "ess-ess-ess-air".

standing for something like ??-sovietski-?-sotcheyallascheechulspeak-raycepooblickee, a big tongue twister for me when i first heard it in my russian class.

the study of Astrophysics encouraged learning russian for reading their scientific journals.

"I'm the Grim Reaper now, Mitch. Step aside."
Death to #TzarVladimirtheCondemned!
Enjoy every sandwich!

- xongsmith, 5.7dawkins scale

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	Message 119 by kjsimons, posted 08-21-2022 5:46 PM		kjsimons has not replied

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