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Author Topic:   Testing The Financial Apologists Conmen
ringo
Member
Posts: 19720
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 76 of 108 (896171)
08-02-2022 12:09 PM
Reply to: Message 66 by Phat
08-01-2022 3:38 PM


Re: Attempting to explain my understanding without a video
Phat writes:
I think it all started when Nixon decoupled the dollar from gold in 1971.
It's too bad you didn't have your enormous fund of economic wisdom back then. If you had bought gold in 1970, how rich would you be now?

"Let me win. But if I cannot win, let me be brave in the attempt."
-- motto of the Special Olympians

This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by Phat, posted 08-01-2022 3:38 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 78 by Phat, posted 08-02-2022 2:49 PM ringo has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 16055
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 77 of 108 (896177)
08-02-2022 2:43 PM
Reply to: Message 69 by dwise1
08-01-2022 6:32 PM


without a video
Thanks for sharing a slice of family.
My Father grew up poor on a farm with brothers and sisters crammed into a small house.
He had a strong work ethic and worked in a Dairy before being drafted into WWII.
Meanwhile, his brother came out west to Denver and became a General Contractor.
After the war, Dad joined him and became a General Contractor also. One advantage in that profession is that you can live in a small house, build your own new one, and move in...repeating the process if needed. Dad never believed in credit cards and told us to save for what we wanted and to never borrow. Honestly, I had many opportunities in life which I squandered. I am nearly poor, though as you guys sanctimoniously pointed out, I inherited a condo. My sister tells me I never knew tough times and she is right. At my age, I would likely die on the street if I had no job and if Social Security somehow failed or was hijacked by the Republicans.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by dwise1, posted 08-01-2022 6:32 PM dwise1 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 80 by Theodoric, posted 08-02-2022 3:44 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 16055
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 78 of 108 (896178)
08-02-2022 2:49 PM
Reply to: Message 76 by ringo
08-02-2022 12:09 PM


Re: Attempting to explain my understanding without a video
The key part of his speech mentions defending the dollar against the speculators. Back then, France was one such speculator, demanding to be paid in Gold rather than Dollars. Nixon made it impossible. Nowadays, the government still defends the dollar aginst speculators.
The fact is, the US Dollar and Gold are competitors. And the Dollar has been defended successfully so far.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by ringo, posted 08-02-2022 12:09 PM ringo has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 79 by Theodoric, posted 08-02-2022 3:38 PM Phat has replied
 Message 81 by Percy, posted 08-02-2022 8:15 PM Phat has replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 7403
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 79 of 108 (896179)
08-02-2022 3:38 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by Phat
08-02-2022 2:49 PM


Re: Attempting to explain my understanding without a video
They are not competitors. Why would you think so? Coherent arguments please. No videos.

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by Phat, posted 08-02-2022 2:49 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 82 by Phat, posted 08-02-2022 10:42 PM Theodoric has not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 7403
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


(1)
Message 80 of 108 (896181)
08-02-2022 3:44 PM
Reply to: Message 77 by Phat
08-02-2022 2:43 PM


Re: without a video
sanctimoniously pointed out, I inherited a condo
Do you even know what that word means? We were merely pointing out your hypocrisy.

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by Phat, posted 08-02-2022 2:43 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 20948
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.1


(1)
Message 81 of 108 (896190)
08-02-2022 8:15 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by Phat
08-02-2022 2:49 PM


Re: Attempting to explain my understanding without a video
Phat writes:
he key part of his speech mentions defending the dollar against the speculators.
I assume you're talking about Nixon, but this is the first time you've even used the word speech in this thread. What speech? And why do you think something Nixon said a half century ago is relevant?
Back then, France was one such speculator, demanding to be paid in Gold rather than Dollars.
France is the "speculators?" Seriously?
You have no idea what happened back then, do you? Without looking it up and just going by what I remember from having lived through it, here's my recollection. Back then many countries backed their currencies with precious commodities like gold and silver. The United States was one of those countries. We set the value of the dollar to be $32/ounce of gold. US citizens were not allowed to own gold, but countries who held US dollars could, if they chose, redeem their dollars for gold from Fort Knox. By convention countries didn't request redemption of many dollars in gold, but there was no international law enforcing that.
Because backing currencies with precious commodities is impractical for modern economies, it was inevitable it would eventually break down. The price of gold on the open market rose far above $32/ounce, and France began redeeming its dollars in gold, thereby making a big profit. France was not speculating - they were simply taking advantage of the arrogance and pigheadedness of the US government in thinking that they could by sheer stubbornness protect a global financial system that was falling apart. The US let a considerable amount of gold leave Fort Knox before refusing to redeem any more dollars with gold. All countries soon stopped backing their currencies with precious commodities and within a short time began letting them float in value relative to each other.
Like I said, this is from memory. Everyone's invited to make corrections.
Nixon made it impossible. Nowadays, the government still defends the dollar against speculators.
The global financial system during the Nixon years bears no resemblance to today. Back then only countries could buy and sell currencies and the precious commodities that backed them. Today anyone can buy and sell currencies. Countries buy their currencies when they think their value too low (makes foreign goods expensive) or sell them when they think their value too high (makes their goods more expensive in foreign markets, causing other countries to buy less of their goods).
The fact is, the US Dollar and Gold are competitors. And the Dollar has been defended successfully so far.
How are the dollar and gold in competition? Is the dollar in competition with platinum, too? How about silver? Copper? Pewter?
It's obvious you're saying these things not because your knowledge and understanding tells you they're true. You're saying them because that's what your YouTube nitwits are saying, or at least what you think they're saying. Stop listening to them and start thinking for yourself. The title of this subthread is, "Attempting to explain my understanding without a video," but that's not what you're doing. There's no understanding in anything you say. You're just parroting the videos.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by Phat, posted 08-02-2022 2:49 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 83 by Phat, posted 08-03-2022 10:54 AM Percy has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 16055
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 82 of 108 (896194)
08-02-2022 10:42 PM
Reply to: Message 79 by Theodoric
08-02-2022 3:38 PM


Gold And The Dollar
I will readily admit that I don't understand everything. I also admit that I get my information from Gold Dealers as well as FederalReserve.gov.
Thus, I read a varieety of sources in order to research the questions we raise.
This was from Investopedia
quote
Will the U.S. Dollar Collapse?
There are some conceivable scenarios that might cause a sudden crisis for the dollar. The most realistic is the dual-threat of high inflation and high debt, a scenario in which rising consumer prices force the Fed to sharply raise interest rates. Much of the national debt is made up of relatively short-term instruments, so a spike in rates would act like an adjustable-rate mortgage after the teaser period ends. If the U.S. government struggled to afford its interest payments, foreign creditors could dump the dollar and trigger a collapse.
If the U.S. entered a steep recession or depression without dragging the rest of the world with it, users might leave the dollar. Another option would involve some major power, such as China or a post-European Union Germany, reinstating a commodity-based standard and monopolizing the reserve currency space. However, even in these scenarios, it is not clear that the dollar necessarily would collapse.
The collapse of the dollar remains highly unlikely. Of the preconditions necessary to force a collapse, only the prospect of higher inflation appears reasonable.

Thus, the dollar would be in direct competion with commodities besides Gold, if inflation lasts longer than has been predicted.
Note the behavior of inflation during yhe 70's through 1980:
It spiked three times.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by Theodoric, posted 08-02-2022 3:38 PM Theodoric has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 16055
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 83 of 108 (896220)
08-03-2022 10:54 AM
Reply to: Message 81 by Percy
08-02-2022 8:15 PM


Re: Attempting to explain my understanding without a video
Percy writes:
It's obvious you're saying these things not because your knowledge and understanding tells you they're true. You're saying them because that's what your YouTube nitwits are saying, or at least what you think they're saying.
OK. The Dollar (and later all currencies) were decoupled from Gold. Nixon said that he was defending the dollar against the speculators, but it now seems to me that Gold itself is being defended manipulated against speculators. It seems scandalous to me for one primary reason. If a man has gold, and the value was allowed unfettered market speculation, he could profit from inflated currencies and also hide his true assets from government oversight...which to me is fair. This whole idea of digital money (an upcoming reality) gives the government(s) full authority over all money anywhere and everywhere. And I don't trust governments nor do I feel they should have that much authority over money. Having said all this, I realize that Money competes with money. My gripe has now been redefined as private money vs public money. And eventual global control over where any and all of the money is kept at any given moment.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by Percy, posted 08-02-2022 8:15 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 84 by Theodoric, posted 08-03-2022 11:02 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 85 by nwr, posted 08-03-2022 11:12 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 86 by Tanypteryx, posted 08-03-2022 11:30 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 87 by ringo, posted 08-03-2022 11:50 AM Phat has replied
 Message 100 by Percy, posted 08-03-2022 6:31 PM Phat has not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 7403
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 84 of 108 (896221)
08-03-2022 11:02 AM
Reply to: Message 83 by Phat
08-03-2022 10:54 AM


Re: Attempting to explain my understanding without a video
Nixon said that he was defending the dollar against the speculators,
Quote please.
ut it now seems to me that Gold itself is being defended manipulated against speculators
Source and relevance.
If a man has gold, and the value was allowed unfettered market speculation, he could profit from inflated currencies
Explain how.
and also hide his true assets from government oversight
To what end?
And I don't trust governments nor do I feel they should have that much authority over money.
Why? Alternative?
I realize that Money competes with money.
Explain what this means. Relevance?
My gripe has now been redefined as private money vs public money.
Explain what this means.
And eventual global control over where any and all of the money is kept at any given moment.
How? By who? The big them?
You make all sorts of weird pronouncements and claims, but it is all word salad without any explanation or evidence.

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by Phat, posted 08-03-2022 10:54 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6036
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 85 of 108 (896223)
08-03-2022 11:12 AM
Reply to: Message 83 by Phat
08-03-2022 10:54 AM


Re: Attempting to explain my understanding without a video
And I don't trust governments nor do I feel they should have that much authority over money.
Always remember that money is just pieces of paper with no intrinsic value.
The value of money comes from how we use it, not from its intrinsic properties. And government cannot control how we use it. Yes, government can influence how we use it, but that influence falls far short of control.
You get yourself all worked up because you don't understand this.

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by Phat, posted 08-03-2022 10:54 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 3419
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 4.2


(1)
Message 86 of 108 (896226)
08-03-2022 11:30 AM
Reply to: Message 83 by Phat
08-03-2022 10:54 AM


Re: Attempting to explain my understanding without a video
and also hide his true assets from government oversight...which to me is fair.
Yeah, I've always thought it was unfair for the government to look into the assets of gangsters and the mafia, and especially conmen and fraudsters.
And I don't trust governments nor do I feel they should have that much authority over money.
Like I always say, "I'd rather trust a conman with my money than MY government."
This whole idea of digital money (an upcoming reality) gives the government(s) full authority over all money anywhere and everywhere.
I still use cash for the pot store and to pay the kid that works in my yard, but almost all of my transaction are already digital, with a debit card or a credit card. As soon as people started writing checks it was clear that the evils of digital money were just around the corner.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq


This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by Phat, posted 08-03-2022 10:54 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19720
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 87 of 108 (896230)
08-03-2022 11:50 AM
Reply to: Message 83 by Phat
08-03-2022 10:54 AM


Re: Attempting to explain my understanding without a video
Phat writes:
This whole idea of digital money (an upcoming reality)...
Money has been "digital" - i.e. a number in a ledger in a bank - for centuries.
Phat writes:
And I don't trust governments nor do I feel they should have that much authority over money.
Remember the good old days when the banks printed their own currency? How did that work out?
Phat writes:
My gripe has now been redefined as private money vs public money.
We know you hate the public. We know you side with the private money of the rich rather than the public money of the poor. What we don't understand is why.

"Let me win. But if I cannot win, let me be brave in the attempt."
-- motto of the Special Olympians

This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by Phat, posted 08-03-2022 10:54 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 88 by Phat, posted 08-03-2022 1:21 PM ringo has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 16055
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 88 of 108 (896237)
08-03-2022 1:21 PM
Reply to: Message 87 by ringo
08-03-2022 11:50 AM


Re: Attempting to explain my understanding without a video
ringo writes:
We know you hate the public.
Oh stop! What I hate is overarching government control over costly things that they have no consensual knowledge about. Take Green New Deals vs Oil and Gas, for instance. It is true that we need to prepare for eventual reliance on Green energy such as solar, wind, and errr... I dunno...geothermal? It's true we will eventually have to find ways to desalinate ocean water as our population is growing and Lake Mead and Lake Powell are drying up. And it is true that within 50 years we will be able to fully rely on these clean and/or renewable sources. But not tomorrow. We need oil and gas in the meantime. The average Joe can't afford higher and higher taxes while at the same time waiting to afford an electric car while he fills up on 6.00 a gallon++ gasoline.
My government should not have the right to decide what's best for me while controlling my future. What do they expect the middle class to do? Give more up to help the poor become equal to us in wealth (which by necessity decreases our wealth) and take the city bus to work in the meantime?
We know you side with the private money of the rich rather than the public money of the poor.
Again, all that I side with is less government control vs more government control. Before you know it, we as a society will have blundered into a one-world government and mandatory compliance. Heck, China even increased the number of kids the population is allowed to have. While my country is getting older and grayer and needs social security, the rich are spending up all the surplus and pushing me...and the public...into a collective poor farm. How do you like them apples?

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by ringo, posted 08-03-2022 11:50 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 89 by nwr, posted 08-03-2022 1:42 PM Phat has not replied
 Message 90 by Tanypteryx, posted 08-03-2022 2:20 PM Phat has not replied
 Message 91 by Theodoric, posted 08-03-2022 2:39 PM Phat has replied
 Message 92 by ringo, posted 08-03-2022 3:29 PM Phat has replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6036
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 3.8


(3)
Message 89 of 108 (896238)
08-03-2022 1:42 PM
Reply to: Message 88 by Phat
08-03-2022 1:21 PM


Re: Attempting to explain my understanding without a video
What I hate is overarching government control over costly things that they have no consensual knowledge about. Take Green New Deals vs Oil and Gas, for instance.
I'll remind you that "Green New Deal" is a slogan. It isn't anything the government is actually controlling.
And it is true that within 50 years we will be able to fully rely on these clean and/or renewable sources. But not tomorrow. We need oil and gas in the meantime.
Do you really believe that your god is going to magically poof a new way of doing things into action? Don't we need to work on it and start making preparations.
Again, all that I side with is less government control vs more government control.
Okay. So let's have more open shoplifting. After all, laws against shoplifting are government control, and you want less of that.
You really have not thought this through.

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by Phat, posted 08-03-2022 1:21 PM Phat has not replied

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 3419
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 4.2


(4)
Message 90 of 108 (896239)
08-03-2022 2:20 PM
Reply to: Message 88 by Phat
08-03-2022 1:21 PM


Re: Attempting to explain my understanding without a video
My government should not have the right to decide what's best for me while controlling my future. What do they expect the middle class to do? Give more up to help the poor become equal to us in wealth (which by necessity decreases our wealth) and take the city bus to work in the meantime?
No, the republican part of your government isn't giving your money to the poor, they are giving hundreds of billions to the oil companies in the form of subsidies and no taxes, because , ya know they're struggling.
he average Joe can't afford higher and higher taxes while at the same time waiting to afford an electric car while he fills up on 6.00 a gallon++ gasoline.
Well, they're going to have to afford it because they have to continue paying for the republican tax cuts.
And I know that I will never be able to afford an electric car.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq


This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by Phat, posted 08-03-2022 1:21 PM Phat has not replied

  
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