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Author Topic:   Testing The Financial Apologists
Theodoric
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Posts: 9133
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.3


(2)
Message 241 of 362 (910032)
04-15-2023 10:25 AM


As Phat likes to post links to videos from every random nutjob, here is an actual economist talking about the dollar.
This is a gift link so you can access it.
Opinion | Is the U.S. Dollar Really in Danger? - The New York Times
quote:
But the dollar has three big advantages. One is incumbency: Since everyone is already using dollars, it would take exceptional circumstances to get them to switch. A second is that U.S. financial markets are open: Unlike China, we don’t impose controls on people trying to move money into or out of the country. The third is the rule of law. Unless you’re a dictator planning to commit major war crimes, you needn’t fear that the U.S. government will impound your assets; in China, your assets may be at risk if you say something the strongman in charge doesn’t like.
Why, then, all the panicky commentary about the dollar? Well, I studied with Charles Kindleberger, and one of the things he told his students was that “anyone who spends too much time thinking about international money tends to go mad.” The global role of the dollar sounds important and seems mysterious; that makes it a natural subject for conspiracy theories and catastrophic thinking.
In reality, however, the dollar’s role looks pretty secure — with one major caveat. I have no idea what will happen if, as seems all too possible, we end up defaulting on debt payments because a Republican House refuses to raise the debt ceiling. But it’s not likely to be good. Who will trust the currency of a nation that appears to have politically lost its mind?
But if that happens, the threat to the dollar’s reserve-currency status will be the least of our problems.
Yeah ever notice that the doom and gloomers are always trying to sell something.

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


Replies to this message:
 Message 242 by Phat, posted 04-18-2023 10:19 AM Theodoric has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18295
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 242 of 362 (910157)
04-18-2023 10:19 AM
Reply to: Message 241 by Theodoric
04-15-2023 10:25 AM


Krugman
I noted his information, but do not take it as truth....just informed opinion. We are in a war of ideologies and money itself is being tugged back and forth. One side wants government control of it while my side wants freedom to us it apart from what the government deems to be the standard

This message is a reply to:
 Message 241 by Theodoric, posted 04-15-2023 10:25 AM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 243 by nwr, posted 04-18-2023 11:28 AM Phat has replied
 Message 244 by Theodoric, posted 04-18-2023 11:50 AM Phat has replied
 Message 245 by Theodoric, posted 04-18-2023 12:08 PM Phat has replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6409
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.3


(3)
Message 243 of 362 (910159)
04-18-2023 11:28 AM
Reply to: Message 242 by Phat
04-18-2023 10:19 AM


Re: Krugman
We are in a war of ideologies and money itself is being tugged back and forth.
Money itself is nothing. Money is just a token that represents value. And value depends on the culture.
A problem for conservatives, is that they tend to emphasize money itself, instead of understanding that it the represented value that is important.

--> -->Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity <-- <--

This message is a reply to:
 Message 242 by Phat, posted 04-18-2023 10:19 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 250 by Phat, posted 04-20-2023 10:36 PM nwr has replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9133
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.3


(1)
Message 244 of 362 (910160)
04-18-2023 11:50 AM
Reply to: Message 242 by Phat
04-18-2023 10:19 AM


Re: Krugman
Now that was a bullshit nonresponse
You epitomize the mindset of people my father warned me about.
quote:
Don't confuse me with the facts. My mind is made up.

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 242 by Phat, posted 04-18-2023 10:19 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 246 by Phat, posted 04-20-2023 1:26 PM Theodoric has not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9133
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.3


(1)
Message 245 of 362 (910161)
04-18-2023 12:08 PM
Reply to: Message 242 by Phat
04-18-2023 10:19 AM


G7
You ever figure out what the G7 is? Care to explain what your comment about the G7 was supposed to mean? Or are you going to just ignore it and revive another zombie thread?

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 242 by Phat, posted 04-18-2023 10:19 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 247 by Phat, posted 04-20-2023 1:31 PM Theodoric has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18295
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 246 of 362 (910274)
04-20-2023 1:26 PM
Reply to: Message 244 by Theodoric
04-18-2023 11:50 AM


Re: Krugman
Now I have more time to actually read with comprehension, rather than shooting from the hip and reacting in the one hour I have before work every day! Let me think about all of this before I respond. *sips coffee*
Theodoric writes:
As Phat likes to post links to videos from every random nutjob, here is an actual economist talking about the dollar.
In my defense, the people whom I listen to are not nutjobs. I will give ground to Krugman, however. (He even talks about two of them--Robert Kiyosaki and Peter Schiff.)
Krugman then goes on to provide a link to Whatever happened to the inflation “Weimarists”? (Dan Indiviglio from Reuters) which I read. This was a 2013 article.
quote:
Whatever happened to predictions the United States would soon experience Weimar Republic-like inflation? When the Federal Reserve kicked off its massive stimulus campaign, critics invoked this dark period of modern German history and its images of wheelbarrows full of valueless cash. Four years later, only the most stubborn hawks still fear such hyperinflation. Consistently low price growth has made Ben Bernanke’s easing look safe – so long as his exit works.
As the Fed began to pour trillions of dollars into the economy to calm the financial crisis and resulting severe unemployment, inflation alarmists issued dire warnings. Some prominent investors like gold bug Peter Schiff said current policy could put the nation on a path to the sort of hyperinflation suffered by the parliamentary democracy that Germany adopted in the decade following World War I(...)While the most vocal “Weimarists” should have found it humbling to be so wrong for so long, they’ve not disappeared. It’s just that the establishment no longer pays them any attention. PIMCO co-founder Bill Gross, for instance, recently went bullish on low-yielding 10-year Treasuries, implying he must not be very scared of higher inflation hitting any time soon.
So it would appear that recent history vindicates Bernanke. But as a modern economic historian, he’s smart enough not to claim “mission accomplished” yet. He has avoided inflation during monetary expansion – his exit must proceed with equal aplomb.

Now, we are seeing the ramping up of inflation, though even our "Weimarist" Schiff now sees disinflation happening rapidly while prices are still high. The money supply expansion since COVID has evaporated (according to him) and we are now poised between two extremes...more inflation or deflation. The FED is indeed navigating between two narrow cliffs and is searching for an exit.
Krugman also quotes Robert Kiyosaki: Robert Kiyosaki Says 'America Is Dying' — Warns of Hyperinflation, Death of US Dollar and I must admit, these articles are reflective of the "random nutjob" videos you claim that I listen to. A week ago when I accessed your link, I was in so much of a hurry that I reacted without having read the article or the links thoroughly.
Krugman then goes on to say:
NYTimes Opinion:
And today’s Weimarists have a new argument. Recently a number of countries, alarmed or maybe just annoyed by what they perceive as the weaponization of the dollar against Vladimir Putin, have been taking at least symbolic steps to reduce the dollar’s role in the world economy. For example, China has asked oil producers to accept payments in yuan instead of dollars.
This has even relatively sober commentators like Fareed Zakaria warning that the dollar’s status as the world’s reserve currency is at risk. And losing reserve-currency status, many people imagine, would be an economic catastrophe for America.(...)In reality, however, the dollar’s role looks pretty secure — with one major caveat. I have no idea what will happen if, as seems all too possible, we end up defaulting on debt payments because a Republican House refuses to raise the debt ceiling. But it’s not likely to be good. Who will trust the currency of a nation that appears to have politically lost its mind?
But if that happens, the threat to the dollar’s reserve-currency status will be the least of our problems.

Krugman does appear rational and has heard the same arguments that I have bought into.
The debt ceiling comment has me thinking. Some commentators have said that it is purely symbolic..and that the debt ceiling MUST be raised each time the issue comes up. I agree that only a clueless politician would challenge that necessity. I could only see the Republicans doing that in order to fight what they see as extremism regarding green energy versus hard asset energy such as natural gas and oil. That will likely be a major political talking point in the next elections.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 244 by Theodoric, posted 04-18-2023 11:50 AM Theodoric has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18295
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 247 of 362 (910275)
04-20-2023 1:31 PM
Reply to: Message 245 by Theodoric
04-18-2023 12:08 PM


Re: G7
My comments regarding the G7 were also reactionary, but they were based on Macron cozy-ing up to China and seemingly relegating the US to second place...a move which I saw ass a threat to future G7 stability. Make no mistake: China is not our friend...they are a hard nosed competitor who would have no problem upending our dominance. (regardless of how it hurts the US middle class)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 245 by Theodoric, posted 04-18-2023 12:08 PM Theodoric has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 248 by AZPaul3, posted 04-20-2023 1:36 PM Phat has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8527
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.2


(1)
Message 248 of 362 (910276)
04-20-2023 1:36 PM
Reply to: Message 247 by Phat
04-20-2023 1:31 PM


Re: G7
(regardless of how it hurts the US middle class)
What about the chinese middle class? They are the rising stars in this world. Do they not deserve any largess from their labors?

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 247 by Phat, posted 04-20-2023 1:31 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 249 by Phat, posted 04-20-2023 10:09 PM AZPaul3 has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18295
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 249 of 362 (910303)
04-20-2023 10:09 PM
Reply to: Message 248 by AZPaul3
04-20-2023 1:36 PM


Re: G7
Of course they do, but the Chinese Communist Party wont simply share the benefits equally. Thats why I support Shen Yun. They know all too well what the CCP is all about.
Don't tell me that your liberally brainwashed mind actually approves of Chinese Communism. Do some research.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 248 by AZPaul3, posted 04-20-2023 1:36 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 251 by Theodoric, posted 04-20-2023 11:08 PM Phat has replied
 Message 252 by AZPaul3, posted 04-20-2023 11:12 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18295
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 250 of 362 (910304)
04-20-2023 10:36 PM
Reply to: Message 243 by nwr
04-18-2023 11:28 AM


Re: Krugman
nwr writes:
Money is just a token that represents value. And value depends on the culture.
There is no "one" culture. A cultural group has an ideology within that group, but does not necessarily speak for ALL groups--even if they happen to be in power at the moment. Liberals might suggest that the value of the money is based on what voters want "it" to do. Conservatives may argue that the market determines the value. And the market plays no favorites. If we have a Trillion dollars in the till and your ideology mandates spending it on green energy, my ideology may protest that government is overextending its reach by socking everyone with a common bill. What if I cant afford a new electric car? What if I agree with green energy in principle but do not agree with the pace by which it is being implemented?
nwr writes:
A problem for conservatives, is that they tend to emphasize money itself, instead of understanding that it the represented value that is important.
And what if we don't agree on what we should spend it on or what is or is not valuable? It is not ever a group decision when it affects ones private funds above taxation.
And if anyone disagrees, how can you get mad at debt limit obstructionists who believe that eternally raising the debt limit is not in their best interests?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 243 by nwr, posted 04-18-2023 11:28 AM nwr has replied

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Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9133
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.3


(1)
Message 251 of 362 (910307)
04-20-2023 11:08 PM
Reply to: Message 249 by Phat
04-20-2023 10:09 PM


Cult
You do realize it is a cult, don't you?
Falun Gong - RationalWiki

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 249 by Phat, posted 04-20-2023 10:09 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 253 by Phat, posted 04-21-2023 3:41 AM Theodoric has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8527
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.2


(5)
Message 252 of 362 (910308)
04-20-2023 11:12 PM
Reply to: Message 249 by Phat
04-20-2023 10:09 PM


Re: G7
Don't tell me that your liberally brainwashed mind actually approves of Chinese Communism.
No approval or disapproval.
China is a fact on the ground and will be a big part of this planet's future political and economic structure for a long time to come. You fear the rising wealth of chinese society. You see them not as the vicious capitalist competitors they have become (trained by our example) but as enemies to make war against. Economic jealousy.
Yeah, that's good for world stability.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 249 by Phat, posted 04-20-2023 10:09 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 258 by Phat, posted 04-22-2023 7:29 AM AZPaul3 has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18295
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 253 of 362 (910315)
04-21-2023 3:41 AM
Reply to: Message 251 by Theodoric
04-20-2023 11:08 PM


Re: Cult
You are as bad or worse than I am! You rapidly google one thing and if it agrees with your political views anyway, you run with it.
Shen Yun is not a cult.
Besides, I've heard that Leftism is a Cult!
6 Ways Leftism Acts Like A Religion
The Federalist:
Leftism is not a political ideology anymore. It is a full-fledged religion complete with tithing, penance, forced confessions, iconoclasm, internet inquisitions, public rituals, excommunication, heavily policed virtues, sacred texts, seminaries, and online auto-de-fes.
The proof is too plentiful to ignore. 

Here are the signs that we’re truly confronting a theocracy of totalitarian religious extremists.
  • Conformity, Strictly Enforced Virtues, and Excommunication
  • Inquisition
  • Sins
  • Penance
  • Public Ritual
  • Evangelization
    The progressive promised land is here now. This is our preview. It’s a hedonistic, puritan-fusion theocracy where you must be okay with the homeless shooting up or defecating on your street and be firmly committed to threatening people’s careers if they think all women are born with a vagina.(...)I do know, however, that I’m proud to be considered a heretic in their eyes.

  • See how easy that is?

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 251 by Theodoric, posted 04-20-2023 11:08 PM Theodoric has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 254 by Theodoric, posted 04-21-2023 7:40 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied
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    Theodoric
    Member
    Posts: 9133
    From: Northwest, WI, USA
    Joined: 08-15-2005
    Member Rating: 3.3


    (1)
    Message 254 of 362 (910317)
    04-21-2023 7:40 AM
    Reply to: Message 253 by Phat
    04-21-2023 3:41 AM


    Re: Cult
    But what that claims is not true. Leftism(whatever that means) is not a cult by any stretch of any definition of the word. Falun Gong and it's offshoots do.

    What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

    Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

    "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

    If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 253 by Phat, posted 04-21-2023 3:41 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

      
    Theodoric
    Member
    Posts: 9133
    From: Northwest, WI, USA
    Joined: 08-15-2005
    Member Rating: 3.3


    (1)
    Message 255 of 362 (910323)
    04-21-2023 9:24 AM
    Reply to: Message 253 by Phat
    04-21-2023 3:41 AM


    Re: Cult
    Just read your source. Lol.
    The Federalist? Really? The author is a d list video producer with seemingly no expertise in politics or religion.
    But most strikingly he never accuses leftism of being a cult but rather a religion. Also, he seems to think a religion is a cult before it grows up to be a religion.
    Seemingly you agree with this guy's argument.
    At no point does he posit that leftism is a cult. Did you read his screed? Or just find a title you thought would support your nutbaggery.

    What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

    Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

    "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

    If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 253 by Phat, posted 04-21-2023 3:41 AM Phat has not replied

      
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