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Author Topic:   Testing The Financial Apologists
Phat
Member
Posts: 17036
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 151 of 178 (904576)
01-02-2023 9:10 AM
Reply to: Message 150 by Tangle
01-01-2023 1:00 PM


The Global Debt Overshadows All Else
Phat writes:
Tax them all you want. You still will have an unpayable National Debt.
Tangle writes:
You just can't bring yourself to say that people - whoever they are - should pay their fair share of tax can you?
I'm all for that. One of my best friends, politically Democratic and moderately liberal, says that he wouldnt mind being taxed more if it would help the country-at-large.
You don't actually want a fair society, a Christian society, where people all chip in for the common good at all do you?
The problem is that we are a secular society (not a problem in itself) that has other spirits running the place other than the Holy one. (But of course you call such talk madness.
Phat writes:
A tax increase for the wealthy won't solve the fiscal problems that a Democratically appointed Federal Reserve has caused.
Tangle writes:
I couldn't care less about the crap that you're obsessing about today, the point is to imagine a fair system and implement it. After that, you might find that other things become possible too.
This is what baffles me about you. You claim to have some knowledge and insight into the financial system and how it works, but you seem oblivious to the failure of fiat currencies backed by nothing except the people.
Tangle writes:
...the point is to imagine a fair system and implement it.
I agree. But we can't go on wrestling in a burning house.

The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” - Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894).
When both religious and non-religious people reach the same conclusions then you know religion isn't the reason.--Percy
Democrats should not be the only party. Respect the two-party system. -Phat, in December 2022
We see Monsters where Science shows us Windmills.~Phat, remixed

This message is a reply to:
 Message 150 by Tangle, posted 01-01-2023 1:00 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 152 by Theodoric, posted 01-02-2023 10:00 AM Phat has replied
 Message 154 by Tangle, posted 01-02-2023 10:52 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 158 by ringo, posted 01-04-2023 8:10 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 159 by Tanypteryx, posted 01-04-2023 10:49 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 8082
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


(1)
Message 152 of 178 (904580)
01-02-2023 10:00 AM
Reply to: Message 151 by Phat
01-02-2023 9:10 AM


Re: The Global Debt Overshadows All Else
but you seem oblivious to the failure of fiat currencies backed by nothing except the people.
And you have yet to explain why this is an issue or proposed any other realistic system. You fail to realize that value and worth are man-made concepts. Commodities of any type are subject to price manipulation. Look at diamonds. There value and perceived worth is artificially manipulated.
You just continue to show that facts and data mean nothing to you. But a slick youtube video is your new guide star.
You make a new subtopic heading and then say nothing about it in your post.
Your rock is lonely crawl back to it.
BTW the US taking on debt at .5% or lower interest is now being shown to be brilliant. Wonder if you can figure out why.
We need a new billion dollar bridge connecting MN and WI, do you think that should only be built once the money is in the bank?

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 151 by Phat, posted 01-02-2023 9:10 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 153 by Phat, posted 01-02-2023 10:06 AM Theodoric has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 17036
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 153 of 178 (904582)
01-02-2023 10:06 AM
Reply to: Message 152 by Theodoric
01-02-2023 10:00 AM


Re: The Global Debt Overshadows All Else
See my other topic with this same subheading.
BTW the US taking on debt at .5% or lower interest is now being shown to be brilliant.
It is not brilliant. It is madness in a play performed by idiots imagining themselves to be creators.

The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” - Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894).
When both religious and non-religious people reach the same conclusions then you know religion isn't the reason.--Percy
Democrats should not be the only party. Respect the two-party system. -Phat, in December 2022
We see Monsters where Science shows us Windmills.~Phat, remixed

This message is a reply to:
 Message 152 by Theodoric, posted 01-02-2023 10:00 AM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 155 by Theodoric, posted 01-02-2023 10:54 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8887
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.1


(1)
Message 154 of 178 (904586)
01-02-2023 10:52 AM
Reply to: Message 151 by Phat
01-02-2023 9:10 AM


Re: The Global Debt Overshadows All Else
Phat writes:
The problem is that we are a secular society (not a problem in itself) that has other spirits running the place other than the Holy one. (But of course you call such talk madness.
I call that stupidity. Rank stupidity. And it makes me really angry.
You believe in spooks, demons, gods and whatever, but you also call yourself a Christian, so behave like one - tax all according to their ability to earn. Only evil cunts like Trump want an unequal society so that they can exploit it for themselves and they rely on the gullible like you to do it. Be a Christian Phat, a real one, just give it a go, you'll like it.
This is what baffles me about you. You claim to have some knowledge and insight into the financial system and how it works, but you seem oblivious to the failure of fiat currencies backed by nothing except the people.
I have a masters degree in business and have run my own business for 20 years so I do have a handle on financial system but I couldn't give a flying fart about fiat currencies and even less about what an uneducated store supervisor thinks he's learnt about them from a YouTube video.
For god's sake Phat, try "do as you would be done by" for a while.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 151 by Phat, posted 01-02-2023 9:10 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 8082
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


(2)
Message 155 of 178 (904587)
01-02-2023 10:54 AM
Reply to: Message 153 by Phat
01-02-2023 10:06 AM


Re: The Global Debt Overshadows All Else
So you don't actually believe in actual capitalism, just the right wing imitation of it. Also, I see you ignored the majority of what I posted. Not surprised you always do

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 153 by Phat, posted 01-02-2023 10:06 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 20812
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.4


(2)
Message 156 of 178 (904602)
01-02-2023 12:26 PM
Reply to: Message 148 by Phat
01-01-2023 12:03 PM


Re: Trump Card
Phat writes:
A tax increase for the wealthy wont solve the fiscal problems that a Democratically appointed Federal Reserve has caused.
Just wondering what you mean by "Democratically appointed".
Do you mean "democratically appointed"? Because "democratic" and "appointed" are pretty much opposites.
Or do you mean "appointed by Democrats"? Because, if you do, I'd like to point out, once again, that you ALWAYS back Republicans and you NEVER back Democrats, Mr. Doesn't-Know-What-Moderate-Means.
Here's a quick lesson in American government for you: The US has
1. the Executive branch, which may Be Democrat or Republican
2. the Legislative branch, which is subdivided into
a. the House of Representatives, which may Be Democrat or Republican
b. the Senate, which may Be Democrat or Republican
So... there are THREE entities, which may add up to Democrat-Democrat-Democrat, Democrat-Republican-Democrat, Democrat-Republican-Republican, etc.
So... it's pretty hard to blame the debt on one party.
But YOU seem to be able to attach blame to the Democrats, Mr. Doesn't-Know-What-Moderate-Means. SO show us HOW the Democrats are responsible for the debt.
(Another factor, just to put the icing on the cake, is that sometimes there is a NEED for borrowing - a hurricane submerges a major city, for example. So the justification for the debt rising gets even more complex.)
So SHOW us.

Come all of you cowboys all over this land,
I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command:
To hold a six shooter, and never to run
As long as there's bullets in both of your guns.
-- Woody Guthrie

This message is a reply to:
 Message 148 by Phat, posted 01-01-2023 12:03 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 157 by dwise1, posted 01-02-2023 1:13 PM ringo has seen this message but not replied
 Message 160 by Phat, posted 01-05-2023 12:55 AM ringo has replied

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 5558
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 3.0


(3)
Message 157 of 178 (904605)
01-02-2023 1:13 PM
Reply to: Message 156 by ringo
01-02-2023 12:26 PM


Re: Trump Card
SO show us HOW the Democrats are responsible for the debt.
As I recall, Dubya (a Republican) got us into two major wars without providing for how to pay for those wars. The singular major accomplishment of the Trump Administration was the massive 2017 Tax Scam for the rich which blew a massive hole in the debt again without any provision for paying for it.
Contrasted with that was Biden's two major bills which included ways to pay for them. Indeed, there was much discussion and negotiating over how to pay for these measures.
We have seen this pattern for the past decades, in which a Republican administration ruins the economy, leaving it to the next president, a Democrat, to clean up their mess and get the economy back on track, just to be followed by yet another Republican president who ruins the economy yet again.
Obviously, Democrats are by far much better at running the economy than that Republicans. And it's the Republicans who are by far more responsible for the size of the debt.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 156 by ringo, posted 01-02-2023 12:26 PM ringo has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 161 by Phat, posted 01-05-2023 1:23 AM dwise1 has not replied

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 20812
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.4


(2)
Message 158 of 178 (904672)
01-04-2023 8:10 PM
Reply to: Message 151 by Phat
01-02-2023 9:10 AM


Re: The Global Debt Overshadows All Else
Phat writes:
You [Tangle] claim to have some knowledge and insight into the financial system and how it works, but you seem oblivious to the failure of fiat currencies backed by nothing except the people.
When somebody who knows the subject is "oblivious" to something, maybe that something is not significant.

Come all of you cowboys all over this land,
I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command:
To hold a six shooter, and never to run
As long as there's bullets in both of your guns.
-- Woody Guthrie

This message is a reply to:
 Message 151 by Phat, posted 01-02-2023 9:10 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 3759
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 159 of 178 (904678)
01-04-2023 10:49 PM
Reply to: Message 151 by Phat
01-02-2023 9:10 AM


Re: The Global Debt Overshadows All Else
Phat writes:
but you seem oblivious to the failure of fiat currencies backed by nothing except the people.
Can you name any currency that failed that was backed by the people?
I think if you study some actual history you will find that fiat currencies that failed did so because the government that issued them was failing and that they had actually lost the backing of the people.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq


This message is a reply to:
 Message 151 by Phat, posted 01-02-2023 9:10 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 17036
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 160 of 178 (904679)
01-05-2023 12:55 AM
Reply to: Message 156 by ringo
01-02-2023 12:26 PM


Re: Trump Card
I did some online fact checking from various sources. Here is what I found.
Fact-check: Are Democrats responsible for the growth of the national debt? ( Jon Greenberg, PolitiFact.com )
Verdict: Mixed but fefinitely not one-sided.
**************
​​What’s the National Debt by President?
To wit:
  • The national debt, which has surpassed $30 trillion, shows how much the federal government owes.
  • All but two presidents since 1900 have contributed to the national debt, some more than others.
  • More significant contributions have been a result of government spending to finance wars and economic recovery.
  • While a country’s national debt and gross domestic product are often correlated, too much debt compared to a country’s GDP can negatively impact economic growth.
    ******************************************************************
    Keep in mind that presidents generally don’t have any control over the budget during their first year in office because it’s already set in stone by the previous president.[3] We adjusted the figures to account for this fact.
    Here’s how each president has contributed to that debt since the turn of the 20th century[4-7]:
    Joe Biden (D) 2021 - present $1.84 trillion 6.33%
    Donald Trump (R)2017 - 2021 $8.2 trillion 40.43%
    Barack Obama (D)2009 - 2017 $8.34 trillion 69.98%
    Dubya Bus(R) 2001 -2009 $6.1 trillion 105.08%
    Bill Clinton (D) 1993 - 2001 $1.4 trillion 31.64%
    H.W. Bush (R) 1989 - 1993 $1.55 trillion 54.39%
    Ronald Reagan(R)1981 - 1989 $1.86 trillion 186.36%
    Jimmy Carter(D) 1977 - 1981 $299 billion 42.79%
    Gerald Ford(R) 1974 - 1977 $223.8 billion 47.11%
    Richard Nixon(R) 1969 - 1974 $121.3 billion 34.3%
    LBJ (D) -1963 - 1969 $42 billion 13.48%
    JFK (D) 1961 - 1963 $22.7 billion 7.87%
    Eisenhower(R) 1953 - 1961 $22.9 billion 8.61%
    Harry S. Truman(D)1945 - 1953 $7.4 billion 2.86%
    Franklin Roosevelt(D)1933 -1945 $236.1 billion 1,047.73%
    Herbert Hoover 1929 - 1933 $5.6 billion 33.12%
    Calvin Coolidge 1923 - 1929 -$5.42 billion -24.24%
    Warren G. Harding 1921 - 1923 -$1.63 billion -6.79%
    Woodrow Wilson 1913 - 1921 $21 billion 722.21%
    William H. Taft 1909 - 1913 $276.7 million 10.48%
    Theodore Roosevelt 1901 - 1909 $502.6 million 23.52%
    It looks pretty evenly mixed.

    The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” - Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894).
    When both religious and non-religious people reach the same conclusions then you know religion isn't the reason.--Percy
    Democrats should not be the only party. Respect the two-party system. -Phat, in December 2022
    We see Monsters where Science shows us Windmills.~Phat, remixed

  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 156 by ringo, posted 01-02-2023 12:26 PM ringo has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 162 by Theodoric, posted 01-05-2023 8:11 AM Phat has replied
     Message 164 by ringo, posted 01-05-2023 10:49 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 17036
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.0


    Message 161 of 178 (904680)
    01-05-2023 1:23 AM
    Reply to: Message 157 by dwise1
    01-02-2023 1:13 PM


    Re: Trump Card
    Record Date Debt Held by the Public Intragovernmental Holdings Total Public Debt
    1/3/2023
    $24,507,554,337,075. $6,843,631,783,954. $31,351,186,121,029.
    There is no way that such a figure is sustainable if it increases year after year more than the tax revenue

    The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” - Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894).
    When both religious and non-religious people reach the same conclusions then you know religion isn't the reason.--Percy
    Democrats should not be the only party. Respect the two-party system. -Phat, in December 2022
    We see Monsters where Science shows us Windmills.~Phat, remixed

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 157 by dwise1, posted 01-02-2023 1:13 PM dwise1 has not replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 163 by Theodoric, posted 01-05-2023 8:12 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

      
    Theodoric
    Member
    Posts: 8082
    From: Northwest, WI, USA
    Joined: 08-15-2005
    Member Rating: 2.5


    (1)
    Message 162 of 178 (904683)
    01-05-2023 8:11 AM
    Reply to: Message 160 by Phat
    01-05-2023 12:55 AM


    Re: Trump Card
    Even when you have facts and figures laid out in front of you, you are still incapable of looking at the data and coming to a non-partisan conclusion.
    It looks pretty evenly mixed.
    The Republican addition to the debt is 1/2 again as much as what the Democrats added. That is far from evenly mixed.
    From your first source.
    quote:
    In nominal dollars, since World War II, just over 60% of the growth in the debt took place under Republican presidents, and about 40% under Democratic presidents.
    The government has had debt since before it was officially formed. Our economy is big enough to handle the debt load. Is it something that needs to be controlled? Yes. Is it something to panic about? No. The debt cannot and should not be eliminated. The world and US economy would not be able to handle or survive massive debt reduction. There are too many other things(like housing and feeding people) that are much more important.

    What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

    Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

    "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

    If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 160 by Phat, posted 01-05-2023 12:55 AM Phat has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 165 by Phat, posted 01-05-2023 11:55 AM Theodoric has replied

      
    Theodoric
    Member
    Posts: 8082
    From: Northwest, WI, USA
    Joined: 08-15-2005
    Member Rating: 2.5


    Message 163 of 178 (904684)
    01-05-2023 8:12 AM
    Reply to: Message 161 by Phat
    01-05-2023 1:23 AM


    Re: Trump Card
    Personal incredulity means nothing. Make a valid argument with legitimate sources.

    What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

    Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

    "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

    If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 161 by Phat, posted 01-05-2023 1:23 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

      
    ringo
    Member
    Posts: 20812
    From: frozen wasteland
    Joined: 03-23-2005
    Member Rating: 2.4


    Message 164 of 178 (904688)
    01-05-2023 10:49 AM
    Reply to: Message 160 by Phat
    01-05-2023 12:55 AM


    Re: Trump Card
    Phat writes:
    t looks pretty evenly mixed.
    And yet you said in Message 148, "A tax increase for the wealthy wont solve the fiscal problems that a Democratically appointed Federal Reserve has caused. The Democrats will get rightly blamed for the next economic crash."
    You have contradicted your own claim. And you have also failed to show that, "a tax increase for the wealthy wont solve the fiscal problems...."

    Come all of you cowboys all over this land,
    I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command:
    To hold a six shooter, and never to run
    As long as there's bullets in both of your guns.
    -- Woody Guthrie

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 160 by Phat, posted 01-05-2023 12:55 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 17036
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.0


    Message 165 of 178 (904691)
    01-05-2023 11:55 AM
    Reply to: Message 162 by Theodoric
    01-05-2023 8:11 AM


    Mandatory Debt leads to an antichrist system
    Theo writes:
    The government has had debt since before it was officially formed. Our economy is big enough to handle the debt load.
    Then why is the debt growing exponentially? Heck, we cant even handle the deficeit! You do know the difference,don't you?
    Is it something that needs to be controlled? Yes. Is it something to panic about? No. The debt cannot and should not be eliminated.
    Lets examine global debt for a moment.
    Riding the Global Debt Rollercoaster
    IMF:
    Global debt remained above pre-pandemic levels in 2021 even after posting the steepest decline in 70 years, underscoring the challenges for policymakers.
    Total public and private debt decreased in 2021 to the equivalent of 247 percent of global gross domestic product, falling by 10 percentage points from its peak level in 2020, according to the latest update of the IMF’s Global Debt Database. Expressed in dollar terms, however, global debt continued to rise, although at a much slower rate, reaching a record $235 trillion last year.

    The world and US economy would not be able to handle or survive massive debt reduction. There are too many other things(like housing and feeding people) that are much more important.
    So in other words, lets all go into debt for a problem that wont go away. Do you really think that an ever increasing debt is the inevitable status of global fiat money economies? And if so, why is it necessary? I sometimes think that the Bible will be proven right and that all of us will be perpetually on the hook for paying the bill off.(...cannot buy or sell without the mark. Without being linked into a socialist "democratic" system of human obligation. Which is why I defend private property rights. Even the Bible tells us to
    2 Cor 9:6-8 writes:
    6 Remember this: Whoever sows sparingly will also reap sparingly, and whoever sows generously will also reap generously. 7 Each man should give what he has decided in his heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.
    Government should never mandate compulsory giving beyond reasonable taxation. And if the debt becomes unsustainable, we all should simply agree to wipe the slate clean rather than be under bondage to some socialist "humanitarian" bill.

    The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” - Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894).
    When both religious and non-religious people reach the same conclusions then you know religion isn't the reason.--Percy
    Democrats should not be the only party. Respect the two-party system. -Phat, in December 2022
    We see Monsters where Science shows us Windmills.~Phat, remixed

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 162 by Theodoric, posted 01-05-2023 8:11 AM Theodoric has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 166 by Theodoric, posted 01-05-2023 12:08 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
     Message 167 by ringo, posted 01-05-2023 12:15 PM Phat has replied
     Message 168 by Taq, posted 01-05-2023 12:55 PM Phat has not replied
     Message 169 by Tanypteryx, posted 01-05-2023 1:00 PM Phat has replied
     Message 174 by nwr, posted 01-05-2023 2:56 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

      
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