Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 63 (9094 total)
3 online now:
Newest Member: d3r31nz1g3
Post Volume: Total: 901,858 Year: 12,970/6,534 Month: 253/2,210 Week: 194/390 Day: 0/50 Hour: 0/2


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Are You Racist?
ringo
Member
Posts: 20492
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 106 of 114 (898849)
10-01-2022 11:50 AM
Reply to: Message 104 by candle2
10-01-2022 9:58 AM


Re: What sort of Ist are you?
candle2 writes:
Ringo, many of those who are in prison were raised
without father's.
That's what I said. A difficult upbringing doesn't always lead to emotional growth and more compassion.
candle2 writes:
And just saying that I needed a father figure so
badly that I made one up is nothing more than a
cheap come-back.
It's a fairly obvious comeback.
candle2 writes:
Some guy that believes his ancestry consists of
amoeba, hyenas, and chimps has a lot of gall in
trying to convince others about life.
I'm not trying to convince you of anything. You probably couldn't be convinced that the world is round.
And anybody who doesn't understand that we DO come from the same ancestors as amoebas, hyenas and chimps has a lot to learn before we can teach him anything about life.
But this topic isn't about evolution. Try to be wrong about one thing at a time.
candle2 writes:
You brain came about by random chance, nothing
but a mutation. It can't be trusted.
Wrong. My brain - and all brains - came from the mutations that were selected.
They were selected because they worked better than the ones that were not selected. So they HAVE already shown that they can be trusted.
candle2 writes:
Mine was created by God.
Do you realize that you're not making any sense?
You're trying to deny evolution, yet you're admitting that MY brain did evolve. Are you going to shoot yourself in the other foot too?
And by the way, I'll stack my brain up against yours any day of the week. Go ahead and try to discuss something intelligently.

"Oh no, They've gone and named my home St. Petersburg.
What's going on? Where are all the friends I had?
It's all wrong, I'm feeling lost like I just don't belong.
Give me back, give me back my Leningrad."
-- Leningrad Cowboys

This message is a reply to:
 Message 104 by candle2, posted 10-01-2022 9:58 AM candle2 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 113 by candle2, posted 10-02-2022 1:38 PM ringo has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 7324
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 2.7


(4)
Message 107 of 114 (898857)
10-01-2022 12:22 PM
Reply to: Message 103 by candle2
10-01-2022 9:43 AM


Re: What sort of Ist are you?
Here are two for you:
If you are stopped for a traffic violation, as a white man, you have the right to not be shot dead for looking suspicious. And, if you are in police custody as a white man you have the right to not have your neck slowly crushed till you suffocate to death.
People of color don't have these rights in this society. That is your white privilege.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 103 by candle2, posted 10-01-2022 9:43 AM candle2 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 110 by candle2, posted 10-01-2022 5:35 PM AZPaul3 has replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 7848
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


(4)
Message 108 of 114 (898863)
10-01-2022 2:45 PM
Reply to: Message 103 by candle2
10-01-2022 9:43 AM


Re: What sort of Ist are you?
When you were growing up was your family able to live anywhere they could afford?
Though my father was classically white looking he was Puerto Rican. In the 60's when I was a child, there were whole areas we could not live in because of that.

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 103 by candle2, posted 10-01-2022 9:43 AM candle2 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 109 by dwise1, posted 10-01-2022 4:08 PM Theodoric has not replied

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 5475
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 2.8


(1)
Message 109 of 114 (898868)
10-01-2022 4:08 PM
Reply to: Message 108 by Theodoric
10-01-2022 2:45 PM


Re: What sort of Ist are you?
Though my father was classically white looking he was Puerto Rican. In the 60's when I was a child, there were whole areas we could not live in because of that.
I was born and grew up in Orange County, Calif. and married into a Mexican family. My father-in-law and ex-wife are from Chicago, but his father was from northern Mexico and was mestizo (AKA "brownish") and so is my father-in-law. My mother-in-law is from Mexico City, but her family is primarily Spanish (AKA "rubia" meaning "blonde, light-skinned"). She kept her Mexican citizenship for many years so that they could buy property when they retired to Mexico, but then around 2000 they abandoned those plans and she finally became a US citizen. That meant that for about half a century she had a green card.
They would go down to Tijuana to go shopping (he loved to buy in bulk, especially food, so the garage was something of a warehouse). Coming back over the border, they would always stop him and check his legal status thoroughly, but wave her through, to which she'd ask them, "But don't you want to see my green card?" They'd always laugh about that.
 
The city of Fountain Valley was traditionally farmland until in the late 60's they decided to grow housing tracts instead, forcing out almost all the farms (a few small fields still remain). Nestled within those housing tracts you can find small clusters of older houses. It wasn't until I stumbled upon a late-40's Thomas Brothers wall map that I saw Fountain Valley sprinkled with a number of small communities called colonias.
A year or two ago I found an article about those colonias, but here's another article. Basically, established Orange County cities were redlined against Mexicans such that they could not buy a house but could only rent (further restricting where they could live). Starting in the 1920's, enterprising real estate developers started subdividing plots of land into lots and selling them to Mexicans, thus creating the colonias which have either been assimilated into the 60's tracts or surrounded by them. Most of those lots were large enough for a house, a small field (or large garden), and room for chickens and a cow or goats. Using Google Earth, you can still find some of those lots like in Colonia Juarez south of Mile Square Park and on Hazard just west of Euclid.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 108 by Theodoric, posted 10-01-2022 2:45 PM Theodoric has not replied

  
candle2
Member
Posts: 280
Joined: 12-31-2018
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 110 of 114 (898877)
10-01-2022 5:35 PM
Reply to: Message 107 by AZPaul3
10-01-2022 12:22 PM


Re: What sort of Ist are you?
AZPaul3, blacks kill more police officers than the other
way around.
Blacks kill more whites than vice-versa.
Police officers kill more whites than they do blacks.
The Democratic Party broke up the black family. They
removed the Father from the home.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 107 by AZPaul3, posted 10-01-2022 12:22 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 111 by AZPaul3, posted 10-01-2022 5:50 PM candle2 has not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 7324
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 111 of 114 (898879)
10-01-2022 5:50 PM
Reply to: Message 110 by candle2
10-01-2022 5:35 PM


Re: What sort of Ist are you?
Prove it. All of it.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 110 by candle2, posted 10-01-2022 5:35 PM candle2 has not replied

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 5475
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 112 of 114 (898887)
10-02-2022 1:51 AM
Reply to: Message 104 by candle2
10-01-2022 9:58 AM


Re: What sort of Ist are you?
You brain came about by random chance, nothing
but a mutation. It can't be trusted.
Nope! Nobody's brain came about by random chance, but rather the human brain evolved along with the body.
Evolution is not the same as random chance! Everybody who knows anything at all about evolution knows that! That you (in typical YEC fashion) would think such an utterly stupid and ignorant thing only demonstrates yet again how abjectly ignorant you are of what evolution is or how it works.
That means that your false claim of understanding evolution is just that, false! Just like your obvious lie that you " know how carbon dating works" (Message 482) while demonstrating repeatedly that you have absolutely no clue!
Let's see, the score of you demonstrating that you understand evolution to demonstrating that you don't is now about zero to ... so numerous and ubiquitous that we have lost count -- like the young child just learning to count: " ... Unos. ... Dos. ... ... ... Muchos!"
Mine was created by God.
Nope! Your highly fallible brain had the same origin as ringo's. You cannot possibly claim that your brain and ringo's had entirely separate and different origins. You're both in the same boat.
But then perhaps there is another interpretation for your appeal to you and ringo having resulted from separate creations. A very insidious one.
On occasion in my desire to understand everything, I have tried to find some kind of theoretical basis for Nazism, but usually in vain. In Rick Steves' episode on fascism in Europe, a historian compared the bookshelves of a Communist and of a Nazi. The Communist's bookshelf would be full of books filled with a lot of Marxist and socialist and economic theory; he has a lot of studying to do. The Nazi's bookshelf would contain only one book, Mein Kampf, which very few were ever able to read through, though they all needed to possess a copy (somewhat similar to "true Christians" all having and even carrying a Bible even though it's obvious that far too few of them have ever actually read it).
But one day I did stumble upon a site with materials from actual works of Nazi race theory -- it was an academic site studying those works rather than an actual Nazi or neo-Nazi site.
The most interesting thing I learned on that site is that Nazis were creationists! More specifically, they did believe in Creation (so much for the ubiquitious creationist lie that evolution caused Nazism) and that Aryans and Untermenschen ("sub-humans") were distinctly separate creations who must not be allowed to interbreed. Wow!
Then several months later I heard statements from the racists of the American South (19th century to the 20th at least) saying the exact same thing! Double wow! Though I had already known that American eugenics teachings had influenced Nazi race theory.
Then I watched via ZOOM a presentation by Dr. Eugenie Scott, former President of the National Center for Science Education (NCSE), "What People Get Wrong--And Sometimes Right--About Evolution." (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=80VWDi4Z_JM -- that's on YouTube). I had just previously discussed what I had watched via ZOOM in my Message 110 where I also discussed that Nazi literature study (Fuck your too-tiny phone screen! Read it anyway!).
Watching her video, I learned two new terms which I described in my Message 110:
DWise1 writes:
The question of race came up and Dr. Scott argued that Darwin, being a product of his times and of the British Empire, shared some of those prejudices and vocabulary of his culture. However, it turns out that Darwin was less racist than his contemporaries and the principles of Darwinian evolution run counter to popular racist sentiment and "theory".
Here are two new terms regarding race and the origins of the races:
  • monogenesis -- a theory of human origins which posits a single origin of humanity (eg, "out of Africa").
  • polygenesis -- a theory of human origins which posits the view that the human races are of different origins (polygenesis). Modern scientific views no longer favor the polygenic model, with the monogenic "Out of Africa" hypothesis and its variants being the most widely accepted models for human origins. Historically, polygenism has been used to advance racial inequality.
Dr. Scott pointed out that within evolution there is no such concept as race. It simply does not exist. Rather they speak of demes, local breeding populations or groups. Some demes can be isolated from the others or you can have demes that interbreed.
She also pointed out that Darwinism is monogenetic in that Darwin had explained racial differences as being variations as different human groups descended from a common human ancestor. That is in sharp contrast to the more racist use of polygenesis to argue that those other races entirely different critters from us "real humans".
Polygenesis, the belief that different kinds of people are the result of different acts of Creation by God and forms a theological basis for white supremacist racism, pretty much the basic topic here. Consider the question (taken from Inherit the Wind) of "Where did Cain's wife come from? Another creation over in the next county?" According to polygenesis, that would make sense. Remember 1966 feature movie with lots of big Hollywood stars (George G. Scott played Abraham), The Bible: In the Beginning...? At that point where Cain (Richard Harris -- told you it was a big production) has received the "Mark of Cain" and flees into the wilderness, the film then shows the descendants of Cain, African blacks, implying a common belief that the Mark of Cain is black skin (I shit thee not!):
quote:
American Protestant racial beliefs on the mark of Cain
At some point after the start of the slave trade in the United States, many Protestant denominations began teaching the belief that the mark of Cain was a dark skin tone in an attempt to justify their actions, although early descriptions of Romani as "descendants of Cain" written by Franciscan friar Symon Semeonis suggest that this belief had existed for some time. Protestant preachers wrote exegetical analyses of the curse, with the assumption that it was dark skin.
Baptist segregation
The split between the Northern and Southern Baptist organizations arose over doctrinal issues pertaining to slavery and the education of slaves. At the time of the split, the Southern Baptist group used the curse of Cain as a justification for slavery. Some 19th- and 20th-century Baptist ministers in the Southern United States taught the belief that there were two separate heavens; one for blacks, and one for whites. Southern Baptists either taught or practiced various forms of racial segregation well into the mid-20th century, though members of all races were accepted at worship services. In 1995, the Southern Baptist Convention officially denounced racism and apologized for its past defense of slavery.
The curse of Cain was used to support a ban on ordaining blacks to most Protestant clergies until the 1960s in both the United States and Europe. The majority of Christian churches in the world, including the Catholic Church, Eastern Orthodox churches, Anglican churches, and Oriental Orthodox churches, did not recognize these interpretations and did not participate in the religious movement to support them. Certain Catholic dioceses in the Southern United States adopted a policy of not ordaining blacks to oversee, administer the sacraments to, or accept confessions from white parishioners. This policy was not based on a "curse of Cain" teaching, but was justified by the widely held perception that slaves should not rule over their masters. However, this was not approved of by the Pope or by any papal teaching.

So then, candle2_casting_darkness, are you proposing a blatantly racist polygenetic model in which you and ringo were separately created?
Is that what you really believe? If not, then why say it that way?
What is wrong with you?
 

This message is a reply to:
 Message 104 by candle2, posted 10-01-2022 9:58 AM candle2 has not replied

  
candle2
Member
Posts: 280
Joined: 12-31-2018
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 113 of 114 (898891)
10-02-2022 1:38 PM
Reply to: Message 106 by ringo
10-01-2022 11:50 AM


Re: What sort of Ist are you?
Ringo, you say that your brain selected the mutations.
You must mean that it is similar to going into Walmart
and selecting what items and which brands one wants.
Why don't you select a mutation that turns your arms
into wings.
Blind, random chance does not have the ability to select.
The vast majority of mutations are harmful, and even
fatal to an organism.
Even when a mutation offers a degree of benefits (such
as Sickle Cell Anemia) it also carries risks.
You don't get it do you? I was laughing at you when you I
that your ancestry consists of amoeba, hyenas, and chimps.
Your brain came about by what you call selective mutations.
Surely, with a big Ole impressive brain like that, creating
life from a pool of chemicals should be child's play.
Your big Ole brain must be far superior to mine, because I
can't even come close to achieving that.
In fact, I wouldn't even know where to start.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 106 by ringo, posted 10-01-2022 11:50 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 114 by ringo, posted 10-02-2022 3:23 PM candle2 has not replied

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 20492
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.2


(1)
Message 114 of 114 (898895)
10-02-2022 3:23 PM
Reply to: Message 113 by candle2
10-02-2022 1:38 PM


Re: What sort of Ist are you?
candle2 writes:
Ringo, you say that your brain selected the mutations.
I didn't say that.
I said that our brains come from mutations that were selected. Mutations happen. Some of them make us more able to survive. Some make us less able to survive. The ones that make us more able to survive can be passed sown to our offspring.
If you're going to try to argue against evolution, you really should have an inkling of a clue about how it works.
candle2 writes:
You must mean that it is similar to going into Walmart
and selecting what items and which brands one wants.
It is, kinda. People go to Walmart and select the items they want. The items that are bought "survive" - i.e. the supplier sends more. But the ones that people don't select are not re-ordered. The supplier goes broke and the items become extinct.
candle2 writes:
Why don't you select a mutation that turns your arms
into wings.
Because WE don't do the selecting. The environment does. If there was a mutation for wings, it would quite possibly be selected OUT; it would be a "deformity" which would make the person LESS able to manipulate tools, etc. than if he had hands and LESS likely to survive.
candle2 writes:
Blind, random chance does not have the ability to select.
Of course not. The mutations are the selected, not the selectors.
candle2 writes:
The vast majority of mutations are harmful, and even
fatal to an organism.
Yes, indeed. And a lot of species have become extinct. Their environment selected then OUT.
candle2 writes:
Even when a mutation offers a degree of benefits (such
as Sickle Cell Anemia) it also carries risks.
All of life carries risks. There's the food chain, for example.
candle2 writes:
You don't get it do you? I was laughing at you when you I
that your ancestry consists of amoeba, hyenas, and chimps.
I know. And the rest of us are laughing at YOU because you don't understand that they ARE our relatives.
candle2 writes:
Your brain came about by what you call selective mutations.
I didn't call them any such things. I said that mutations are selected.
candle2 writes:
Surely, with a big Ole impressive brain like that, creating
life from a pool of chemicals should be child's play.
Biochemists' play. It requires twenty of so years of education STARTING when you're a child.
candle2 writes:
Your big Ole brain must be far superior to mine, because I
can't even come close to achieving that.
Well, you can't even read my posts with comprehension. (How many errors did I point out?) You should be asking questions not being arrogant and condescending.
candle2 writes:
In fact, I wouldn't even know where to start.
Start by learning a basic kindergarten-level of understanding about evolution.

"Oh no, They've gone and named my home St. Petersburg.
What's going on? Where are all the friends I had?
It's all wrong, I'm feeling lost like I just don't belong.
Give me back, give me back my Leningrad."
-- Leningrad Cowboys

This message is a reply to:
 Message 113 by candle2, posted 10-02-2022 1:38 PM candle2 has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2022 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.1
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2022