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Author Topic:   Are You Racist?
Percy
Member
Posts: 22283
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.0


(1)
Message 1 of 116 (888716)
09-29-2021 5:40 PM


While dealing with our tennis gear or taking a break my friend and I will talk about this and that, often books or movies we've seen. Today I mentioned White Fragility: Why It's So Hard for White People to Talk About Racism, giving him the short version and saying it was about racism and contained a lot to think about. He made no comment but started talking about something else.
In a wild and strange coincidence, after about a half hour two black men began hitting on the court next to ours. It was wild and strange because it happened at a time when I was reading the first book on racism I've read since Ralph Ellison's Invisible Man back in high school, and because I've played on our town courts for over 30 years and have never seen a black person there. While our kids were in the school system I think there were only three or four black children across all those years. I've never seen a black person in town, not in a store or at a gas station or while voting. New Hampshire is a very white state, 93.1% white and only 1.6% black. And I live in a very white town.
So while we were packing up our tennis gear I commented that my reaction to seeing black men on our tennis court was just the kind of thing that book was talking about. My friend again made no comment but instead started planning when we'll play tomorrow.
Look at the subtitle of the book again: "Why It's So Hard for White People to Talk About Racism." Today couldn't have provided a better example.
So are you racist? No? If someone makes a racist comment, maybe after Trump was elected saying, "I'm so glad we no longer have an ape in high heels in the White House," what would you do? Would you remain silent? Would you call it out? If you remain silent doesn't that make you complicit in a system of white privilege that discriminates against blacks and other minorities?
White people used to talk openly about their racism and how blacks were less civilized, less intelligent, more violent, but after the race riots of the 1960's when white people watched overt racism on their television screens as peaceful black people were beaten by police it became bad form to openly display racism. Racists were now seen as bad people, so white people who thought themselves good and not racist like the horrible people on television developed a different way, an indirect way, of talking about race. Schools weren't black but had low test scores. Towns weren't black but weren't safe. A business wasn't black but wasn't clean, and so forth.
I'm only maybe a third of the way into the book, but I think one of the message's will be that most Americans don't think they're racist but are. My wife and I have had several conversations about race over the years, and we've agreed that we're racist in our feelings but not in our behavior. This gave me confusing feelings, but this book is giving me a framework to think about it. I know I'm racist just from growing up and living in white privilege, but isn't knowing that i'm racist half the battle?
But the larger question is whether I'm contributing to America being a racist nation? I'll wait until I finish the book before I try to answer that question.
--Percy

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Percy
Member
Posts: 22283
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.0


Message 6 of 116 (888724)
09-30-2021 7:27 PM


More on Racism
Sort of replying to everyone...
I think the book is defining racist in a particular way, that a racist is someone who participates in and benefits from systemic discrimination against other races. Just by living in a racist society one is racist.
By this definition practically every white person in the country, even those who have a deeply emotional love of blacks, is racist. If a mixed race couple traveled to rural Idaho on vacation, the white spouse will benefit from being in an all white environment while the black spouse will suffer from having to interact with white people who may never even have met a black person, not to mention that because Aryan Nation has a significant presence there the possibility that they could be amongst the people met must be considered.
Then there's just the way we talk. It is common for a white friend to be called "my friend," but a black friend "my black friend." There's products we buy, like band-aids that match the skin tone of whites. There's the incredibly oblivious response of "all lives matter" to Black Lives Matter.
Then there are the benefits of value of being white. It's as if white people go through life having money stuffed in their pockets. They go to better schools so they can get better jobs, and they get more money for the same job. They live in better neighborhoods, and those neighborhoods get more police protection against crime.
There are benefits with roots in history. Most of the attendees of the University of Virginia are not black, but the older buildings of the main campus were built by slave labor.
There has not yet been any mention of higher black arrest and homicide rates at the hands of police.
Under this definition of racist, is it possible for a white person in America to not be racist? I think so, but one would have to live some kind of weird hermit-like existence.
The term "white fragility" from the title refers to white defensiveness when challenged about their racism. The claims go on for miles (this is verbatim from the book):

  • I know people of color.
  • I marched in the sixties.
  • I already know all this.
  • You are judging me.
  • You don't know me.
  • You are generalizing.
  • This is just your opinion.
  • I disagree.
  • The real oppression is class
    [or gender, or anything other
    than race].
  • You are elitist.
  • I just said one little innocent thing.
  • Some people find offense
    where there is none.
It's informative to allow the racists a word. These are from the comments section at Amazon for the book The Myth of White Fragility: A Field Guide to Identifying and Overcoming the Race Grifters by Jim Hanson, a rebuttal to White Fragility:
quote:
What I care about is the great hardships being placed on American Whites now...
...
I care about the incredible evil of affirmative action on which critical race theory grew...
...
Yes, it gave me the ammunition to go forth in the world and protect myself from the village idiots out there who think I am a racist....because I know who the real racist are.
...
This book rightly condemns the current race industry as a total fraud.
...
...all Whites are racist [is] a totally racist statement...
...
This was a nice little explanation of how ridiculous and illogical "White Fragility" and other forms of wokeness really are.
...
Amazing eye opener into the savage lies to split the races in the United States. It makes people, who are god fearing and loving their neighbors ashamed that radical leftists spreads so much hate to destroy our way of life.
The main objection to White Fragility seems to be that white people are not by default racists. I didn't see White Fragility's main argument addressed, that we are a racist society and thereby racist by benefiting from it. Do those who don't accept its arguments believe America is not a racist society? Or is it just that they don't believe benefiting from living in a racist society doesn't make one racist?
Since black people also live in our racist society, are they, too, by default racist? The author hasn't addressed this yet, and she may not. My own answer is that blacks are racist, too, but in the sense of black resentment at what has been and is still being done to them.
--Percy

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Percy
Member
Posts: 22283
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.0


Message 10 of 116 (888734)
10-02-2021 11:33 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by Son Goku
10-01-2021 8:01 PM


So race-based discrimination isn't a significant issue in Ireland? There's no significant black/white divide? I've been wondering if the black/white divide in America is inherent simply because of color, because if it is then it will never go away.
There's even intra-race racism here in America where the blackest blacks are discriminated against by lighter blacks and so on up the totem pole toward whiteness. Reading about this a bit, it seems that intra-race black prejudice is driven by white prejudice because blacks know that the blacker you are the more discrimination you'll experience, sort of analogous to not wanting to be associated with someone with bad luck.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Son Goku, posted 10-01-2021 8:01 PM Son Goku has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by nwr, posted 10-02-2021 11:45 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied
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Percy
Member
Posts: 22283
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.0


Message 13 of 116 (888738)
10-02-2021 2:33 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by Son Goku
10-02-2021 12:35 PM


Replying to both you and nwr...
Yes, racism in America traces back to slavery, but slavery ended 150 years ago. What perpetuates racism? Nwr mentioned a cultural impact. Have the values and attitudes inculcated during slavery actually survived into today, one generation passing them on to the next? Does it just goes on and on all by itself needing no replenishment from outside sources?
Or perhaps by cultural impact nwr meant how whites react to black culture, which would be a replenishment or reinforcement of racism when whites experience black culture as scary or intimidating?
A common white American attitude toward blacks is that slavery ended a long time ago, whites are no longer racist, and whites are not responsible for blacks' lesser income, wealth, education, housing, health care, etc. If blacks want a better life then they should work for it, just like whites do. Blacks keep asking for handouts from government to make up for some imagined racism and discrimination that no longer exists. In fact, with the advent of affirmative action it is whites that have become the oppressed class as less qualified blacks are handed jobs and university slots they do not deserve.
Because of the prevalence of this attitude I can't see how racism can ever end here.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by Son Goku, posted 10-02-2021 12:35 PM Son Goku has replied

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 Message 16 by PaulK, posted 10-02-2021 3:06 PM Percy has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22283
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.0


Message 17 of 116 (888743)
10-02-2021 3:45 PM


The Atlantic Chimes In
A review of White Fragility appeared in The Atlantic in July of last year: The Dehumanizing Condescension of White Fragility. The author, John McWhorter, a professor at Columbia, is black. I'm reading through it and will comment as I go:
quote:
I am not convinced. Rather, I have learned that one of America’s favorite advice books of the moment is actually a racist tract. Despite the sincere intentions of its author, the book diminishes Black people in the name of dignifying us. This is unintentional, of course, like the racism DiAngelo sees in all whites. Still, the book is pernicious because of the authority that its author has been granted over the way innocent readers think.
Wow!
Before reading on I wonder if I can guess why he thinks it's a racist tract? I did think that some of it was condescending, so is that why? And I would agree that its proposed solution is impractical because it requires that white people constantly walk on eggshells for fear of offending while at the same time maintaining awareness that they will inevitably offend and then have to apologize. But being impractical (because only a tiny percentage of white people will ever go to such lengths) doesn't make it wrong. But the impracticality why he calls it racist?
As I read on I see one way in which he misunderstands DiAngelo's book, and it's a misunderstanding that none of the racist comments I quoted earlier make:
quote:
She operates from the now-familiar concern with white privilege, aware of the unintentional racism ever lurking inside of her that was inculcated from birth by the white supremacy on which America was founded. To atone for this original sin, she is devoted to endlessly exploring, acknowledging, and seeking to undo whites’ “complicity with and investment in” racism. To DiAngelo, any failure to do this “work,” as adherents of this paradigm often put it, renders one racist.
That last sentence misstates DiAngelo's position. It isn't failing to commit to this "work" that makes one racist. To DiAngelo, simply being white raised in our racist society makes one racist. Being conscious of your racism neither removes it nor atones for it. I'll read on now, but I wonder if this misunderstanding of her work underpins what he goes on to say.
quote:
Later in the book, DiAngelo insinuates that, when white women cry upon being called racists, Black people are reminded of white women crying as they lied about being raped by Black men eons ago. But how would she know? Where is the evidence for this presumptuous claim?
McWhorter is dead right on this one. I, too, found it weird. Why would a black woman feel victimized by a white woman crying after hearing extremely distressing stories of racial abuse, such as 14-year-old Emmett Till being lynched in 1955, which is sad enough all by itself. But even more sad is that he was lynched after a white woman accused him of menacing her and behaving in a sexually crude manner toward her, but she recanted just a few years ago, saying none of it was true. Her lie fed white hatred of uppity blacks. Not crying and maintaining stoicism in the face of such stories could be interpreted as being unfeeling toward the plight of blacks. By defining the context as completely catch-22 in nature DiAngelo is revealed as having no solution at all.
Here's McWhorter misunderstand DiAngelo again, which is hard to fathom because her points aren't subtle or ambiguous:
quote:
We must consider what is required to pass muster as a non-fragile white person. Refer to a “bad neighborhood,” and you’re using code for Black; call it a “Black neighborhood,” and you’re a racist; by DiAngelo’s logic, you are not to describe such neighborhoods at all, even in your own head.
DiAngelo's actual point is that white vocabulary has gone underground. White's no longer refer to "black neighborhoods" but to "bad neighborhoods," not because they're actually bad but because that's how whites refer to black neighborhoods today when trying to avoid appearing racist. Instead of saying, "You don't want to live there there because it's a *black* neighborhood," because that would sound racist, they instead say, "You don't want to live there there because it's a *bad* neighborhood."
And here he misunderstands DiAngelo yet again:
quote:
Remember also that you are not to express yourself except to say Amen. Namely, thou shalt not utter:
I know people of color.
I marched in the sixties.
You are judging me.
etc...(this is the same list I provided in a previous message)

But DiAngelo was very clear on more than one occasion that these are examples of white defensiveness exhibited when their racism is brought to their attention. A common emotional reaction at her seminars is apparently, "How dare you call attention to my unconscious racism at a seminar devoted to helping people become aware of their unconscious racism." She's not telling people not to say them. She's saying that using these denials of racism only puts their racism on display.
To me this reveals McWhorter delusional:
quote:
In my life, racism has affected me now and then at the margins, in very occasional social ways, but has had no effect on my access to societal resources; if anything, it has made them more available to me than they would have been otherwise. Nor should anyone dismiss me as a rara avis. Being middle class, upwardly mobile, and Black has been quite common during my existence since the mid-1960s, and to deny this is to assert that affirmative action for Black people did not work.
Really? Racism has only affected him "now and then at the margins"? That is very hard to believe. He's never been the only black at a swimming pool or beach and drawn stares? He's never been denied membership in a club? Colleagues at Columbia have never left him off the invitation list for a university dinner or event? He's never been pulled over by a white cop just for driving? He's never experienced anything like Professor Henry Louis Gates of Harvard being arrested for trying to enter his own home (see Harvard Professor Jailed; Officer Is Accused of Bias - The New York Times)?
Many more examples could be provided, but McWhorter's claim of having experienced only inconsequential racism rings completely false. I wish he had led with this, because then I would have ignored his article. He may be black, but he's inexplicably completely incompetent to comment on racism.
--Percy

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22283
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.0


Message 18 of 116 (888744)
10-02-2021 4:32 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by PaulK
10-02-2021 3:06 PM


PaulK writes:
The end of slavery hardly ended the attitudes related to it. Let’s not forget the Jim Crow laws, segregation and the Civil Rights movement - nor the brutal and violent opposition to ending segregation.
Sure, but what kept white resentment alive? After Lincoln's assassination Johnson gave back much of what had been won in the war. Grant tried to repair the damage, such as by outlawing the KKK, but by then it was too late and southern states were already beginning to pass Jim Crow laws that codified segregation.
But as the era of slavery receded into the past, why didn't white resentment of blacks diminish? It instead seemed to strengthen and harden with Jim Crow laws becoming more broad and strict and the KKK beginning again in the early 20th century. How did white hatred and resentment of blacks maintain itself in the face of segregation's very visible ability to force blacks into lives of misery? Why wasn't that enough to change attitudes from hatred to pity and a desire to improve their lives, or at least stop making them worse.
I’ve no doubt that the attitudes are passed on.
Me either, but for 150 years across at least six generations without weakening?
And I’ve no doubt that general xenophobia reinforces it.
Enough to explain why racism is still so entrenched?
Or that there are some on the right encouraging racism, and growing in influence.
I think only that they're "on the right" is new. The racists have always been there regardless of political affiliation. Maybe they're growing in influence, I don't know, but it could also be that they no longer feel they have to veil their racism, making them much more conspicuous.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
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Percy
Member
Posts: 22283
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.0


Message 19 of 116 (888745)
10-02-2021 4:38 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by Son Goku
10-02-2021 3:00 PM


Son Goku writes:
Well I would say that one shouldn't be surprised that events 150 years ago have ongoing effects.
Yes, historical events ripple across time. What perplexes me is why prejudice against blacks appears to be as strong today as it was 150 years ago. Tons of societal and cultural attitudes have changed immensely in that time, but not racial prejudice. That seems to be a constant, and I'm wondering why.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
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Percy
Member
Posts: 22283
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.0


Message 27 of 116 (888758)
10-03-2021 11:34 AM
Reply to: Message 26 by LamarkNewAge
10-03-2021 10:46 AM


Re: A Fascinating Map of the World's Least and Most Racially Tolerant Countries t
The article you reference in your title can be found here: A fascinating map of the world’s most and least racially tolerant countries. Here's the map:
The US is in the "most tolerant" category because Americans are experienced at veiling their racism. Probably at least a good 30% of the country don't want blacks living next door.
--Percy
Edited by Percy, : No changes, but the renderer was improved, so I'm rerendering to center the image.

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Percy
Member
Posts: 22283
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.0


(2)
Message 29 of 116 (888765)
10-03-2021 1:23 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by ringo
10-03-2021 11:38 AM


In the early 1980's my not-yet-wife and I drove from New Hampshire where we lived down to Florida, camping all along the way. We built up quite a load of dirty laundry and while we were driving through Jacksonville we noticed a laundromat just off the highway, easy-off, easy-on.
New Hampshire is a very white state and we were both completely unconscious of race. The laundromat was filled with cheerful, friendly black women full of helpful advice that we were happy to receive since we were unfamiliar with laundromats. That we were the only white people there escaped our notice at the time. We had to wait for our laundry to finish, of course, and enjoyed conversing with everyone there.
In later years as we became more conscious of race we've wondered if we misinterpreted how the black women felt about two white people walking into their neighborhood laundromat.
--Percy

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Percy
Member
Posts: 22283
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.0


(1)
Message 35 of 116 (895635)
07-09-2022 5:29 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by Phat
07-09-2022 3:45 PM


Re: What sort of Ist are you?
Phat writes:
My only beef with Pelosi is that she struggled with alcohol.
You are so gullible it is painful to watch.
But for the sake of discussion let's say she is an alcoholic, which is a disease. You have a beef with Pelosi because she struggled with a disease? Should people have a beef with you because you've struggled with diabetes?
Shame on you for your gullibility, your ignorance, your irrationality, and your prejudice. A conscious effort might result in improvements, but you not only make none but grow progressively worse.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by Phat, posted 07-09-2022 3:45 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 70 by Phat, posted 09-24-2022 4:00 PM Percy has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22283
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.0


(1)
Message 37 of 116 (895691)
07-11-2022 10:41 AM
Reply to: Message 36 by Sarah Bellum
07-10-2022 1:34 PM


"Intergroup hatreds" seem inherent to the human condition. I think racism will be with us always.
--Percy

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Percy
Member
Posts: 22283
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.0


Message 75 of 116 (898485)
09-25-2022 8:22 AM
Reply to: Message 62 by Phat
09-21-2022 5:48 PM


Re: What sort of Ist are you?
Phat writes:
...an Anglican Irish Bishop famous for assuming the age of the earth based on the chronology...
                                      ^calculating, with some assumptions
--Percy

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 Message 62 by Phat, posted 09-21-2022 5:48 PM Phat has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22283
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.0


(6)
Message 76 of 116 (898486)
09-25-2022 9:10 AM
Reply to: Message 70 by Phat
09-24-2022 4:00 PM


Re: What sort of Ist are you?
Phat writes:
I apologize for any irrationality I may have. My question to all of you is this: Do you see Republicans by and large as more racist than normal?
Seriously? Is your head buried in the sand? How would you make a case that they're not.
Doug Mastriano, Republican nominee for governor in Pennsylvania, donated to Gab, an antisemitic website used by the murderer of 11 Jewish congregates at a Pittsburgh synagogue, and linked to it from his own websites before deleting them this summer. He's called separation of church and state a "myth", and of course what he actually means is that separation of Christianity and the US government is a myth.
Republicans across the country are neutralizing the black vote through gerrymandering.
Republicans are hostile toward Black Lives Matter.
Republican Russell Walker, running for the statehouse in North Carolina, has a personal website that states "the jews are NOT semitic they are satanic as they all descend from Satan."
Arthur Jones, running for Illinois representative, is a member of the American Nazi Party.
Corey Stewart, running in Virginia, is pro-Confederacy.
Paul Nehlen, running in Wisconsin, has been thrown off both Twitter and even Gab for his white supremacist comments.
Georgia eliminated voter drop boxes in certain counties. Predominately black counties. Missouri decided not to deploy the 80 drop boxes it had already purchased. The Trump campaign sued to invalidate drop boxes in Pennsylvania after the 2020 election. Republicans questioned results from drop boxes in Michigan.
Republicans are anti-immigrant, many believing in Replacement Theory, that immigrants are coming to replace white Christians as the dominant group in America.
Conservatism refers to being conservative about change. Conservatives believe change should be considered very carefully. They think the safest approach is usually just to keep things the way they already are.
Independents already realize that sometimes the best approach is to conservatively maintain the status quo, but that sometimes one must be more open, liberal one might even say, in considering solutions. Keeping America as White and Christian as possible is definitely a conservative Republican position.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by Phat, posted 09-24-2022 4:00 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 79 by Phat, posted 09-25-2022 1:52 PM Percy has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22283
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.0


(2)
Message 87 of 116 (898551)
09-26-2022 10:03 AM
Reply to: Message 84 by ringo
09-25-2022 3:40 PM


Re: Moving Topic From Racism Thread.
ringo writes:
Phat writes:
What are you hunting?
People who are wrong.
Probably posted before, but they're still good:
--Percy

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Percy
Member
Posts: 22283
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.0


(1)
Message 88 of 116 (898552)
09-26-2022 10:34 AM
Reply to: Message 79 by Phat
09-25-2022 1:52 PM


Re: Redirecting Political Discussion
Phat writes:
it seems to me that unlike my post to candle2 above, your main reason for disliking Trump is that he was a Republican.
You need to do another rationality check. You asked about Republicans, I responded about Republicans and never mentioned Trump the man once, and you respond like this? Does responding in this way make sense to you now in the light of day?
There are racist Democrats, sexist Democrats, and greedy Democrats. I suppose we can all discuss this more in Who's the bigger offender: Conservatives or Liberals? Message 773
Wouldn't it be a lot easier to type this:
[tid=20210]
Instead of this:
[url=https://www.evcforum.net/dm.php?control=msg&t=20210] Who's the bigger offender: Conservatives or Liberals?[/url]
The obvious answer has been provided before. All political parties are made up of people, and people come in all types. We're not trying to figure out which party has better people, because the obvious answer is neither party.
But we do know which party has implemented and is implementing racist and authoritarian policies, and I just provided you a long list of examples to which you provided no response at all beyond this:
I lean more conservative than liberal though I like my Social Security and Medicare, which Liberals tend to support more than Conservatives.
So do your conservative leanings cause you to support gerrymandering? I'm against gerrymandering regardless which party is doing it.
Are you hostile towards BLM?
Do you support antisemitic or Nazi or pro-Confederacy or white supremacist conservatives?
Do you support making voting harder for minorities?
Are you in favor of mistreatment of illegal immigrants on the grounds that they're not like us and don't belong here?
Are you in favor of banning books?
Are you against gay marriage?
Do you believe in forced birth?
Do you believe abortion should be criminalized, even when performed in another state?
Do you believe the US is a Christian nation?
Anyone answering yes to most of these questions is likely a full-blooded racist, misogynist, authoritarian, anti-church/state separation right-winger.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by Phat, posted 09-25-2022 1:52 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 89 by Phat, posted 09-26-2022 12:01 PM Percy has replied

  
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