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Author Topic:   Anti-theist
ringo
Member
Posts: 20020
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 796 of 823 (897772)
09-11-2022 3:12 PM
Reply to: Message 794 by Phat
09-11-2022 2:48 PM


Re: Hatred Of Thinking?
Phat writes:
Raw intelligence requires humans. No robot will ever figure out the meaning of the universe.
Nor will any human. We can assign meaning. We can't "discover" it.
Phat writes:
I'm mocking your idea of Christianity.
The idea of Christianity that I am expressing comes straight from the Bible, straight from Jesus Himself, according to the only evidence of Him that we have. You're mocking the Bible and you're mocking all we know about Jesus.
Phat writes:
You mock me for making Him up, but the book itself was made up.
So you put yourself on an equal footing with the Gospel writers?
Phat writes:
The only standard we should be held to is the integrity of what we make up.
That was the standard that Charles Manson used. I think we're going to use a higher standard.
Phat writes:
You never dared to do it.
ringp writes:
How would you know that?
Your religion that you were brought up in was too strict. That's why you started thinking and wormed your way out of it.
I started thinking because thinking was the right thing to do. It's a good starting point in almost any situation. Why do you mock thinking?
Phat writes:
The reason I know your religious upbringing was too strict is that even now you insist I follow the standard.
Following a standard is not "too strict". It's a minimum requirement.
Phat writes:
You cling to the integrity of the book and claim that I don't.
I KNOW you don't. You deny the book constantly and put your own musings above it.
Phat writes:
So let me get this straight. The book was written by humans of an earlier warring time. They described a God who commanded them to sacrifice animals and kill every one of their enemy. Jesus comes along and claims that the goats refused to do what He said and thus will also be harshly dealt with.
So far you seem to have a grasp of the obvious.
Phat writes:
You thought your way beyond both characteristics of the Triune God.
There is no Triune God.
Phat writes:
The Spirit, which you fondly call the Spook...
"The Spook" refers to every aspect of your magical God, including your made-up version of Jesus.
Phat writes:
... is also dropped in favor of logic, reason, and reality. Am I right so far?
You continue to mock logic, reason and reality. OF COURSE they come before your fantasies.
(A bunch of your quotes are messed up here.)
Phat writes:
It's your standards that are the illogical idea.
ringo writes:
Show how they are illogical.
All I'm trying to show is that the idea of God is not illogical.
No, you said that MY standards are illogical. We were not talking about the idea of God AT ALL.
Try again. Show how something I SAID is illogical.

"Oh no, They've gone and named my home St. Petersburg.
What's going on? Where are all the friends I had?
It's all wrong, I'm feeling lost like I just don't belong.
Give me back, give me back my Leningrad."
-- Leningrad Cowboys

This message is a reply to:
 Message 794 by Phat, posted 09-11-2022 2:48 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 797 by Phat, posted 09-11-2022 3:23 PM ringo has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 16366
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 797 of 823 (897773)
09-11-2022 3:23 PM
Reply to: Message 796 by ringo
09-11-2022 3:12 PM


Re: Hatred Of Thinking?
ringo writes:
Try again. Show how something I SAID is illogical.
At this point, I will simply label what you have said as a premature conclusion.
The only other thing I can think of is when you compare Jesus with Leprechauns. That is most definitely illogical.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 796 by ringo, posted 09-11-2022 3:12 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 799 by ringo, posted 09-11-2022 3:43 PM Phat has not replied
 Message 807 by dwise1, posted 09-16-2022 3:12 PM Phat has replied

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 20020
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


(1)
Message 798 of 823 (897774)
09-11-2022 3:42 PM
Reply to: Message 795 by Phat
09-11-2022 3:05 PM


Re: Politics and Secular Emotionalism
Phat writes:
in other words...
Never mind putting words in my mouth. Just deal with the words I wrote.
Phat writes:
... you are collectively against the idea of organized religion..
I have no idea where that came from. When have I said anything about organized religion?
(And by the way, I can't "collectively" do anything by myself. Do you just throw in random words?)
Phat writes:
you include the focus on a Creator of all seen and unseen. You are unable to deal with such an idea...
I am quite well able to deal with such a concept. YOU, on the other hand, can't seem to grasp the incongruity of a "creator of all seen and unseen" who DIDN'T create evil.
Phat writes:
... so you throw relativism into the equation....
I will debate relativism up one side and down the other if you just stop running away.
Phat writes:
... and respond "which God" as if to prove a point that everyone makes up God anyway.
I will also debate whether or not your God is made up. Why do you keep running away?
Phat writes:
There you go again with relativism.
Indeed I do. Why don't you discuss it instead of just dismissing it?
Phat writes:
The day I see people worshipping a Leprechaun is the day I explain to you that all other "gods" are imitators.
I don't see people worshipping YOUR made-up God either. Most of the Christians I know would not like the way you trash the Bible.
Phat writes:
Until then, the only leprechaun I ever see is on a cereal box!
Note that your Jesus isn't even on a cereal box. (How many feet can you get in your mouth at once?)
Phat writes:
I observed based on where my experiences led me.
You observed based on what your lying apologists told you.
Phat writes:
If apologists are all liars, so are all mythicists.
Tu quoque (a logical fallacy, roughly equivalent to the schoolyard, "I know you are but what am i?") Your apologists are demonstrably liars. My invitation to discuss that fact is ongoing.
Phat writes:
Quit blaming your problems on conservatives and I might consider easing up on you.
I don't need you to ease up on me. The breeze from your swings-and-misses might muss up my hair a bit but otherwise, your "arguments" are no challenge. Stop running away. I'm getting old. I can't chase you as fast as when I was young.
Phat writes:
ringo writes:
You like the conservatives because they encourage you to be brainless.
More likely, we are encouraged to be heartless so that more money can be earned.
So that more money can be stolen by the Trumps and their minions. That IS brainless of you.
Phat writes:
We surrender our brains to God.
You surrender your brains to lies you have been told about God.
quote:
No retreat, baby, no surrender -- Bruce Springsteen
Phat writes:
If He shows up knocking at your door don't worry. He didn't come for your money or your brain
Then He's wasting His time.

"Oh no, They've gone and named my home St. Petersburg.
What's going on? Where are all the friends I had?
It's all wrong, I'm feeling lost like I just don't belong.
Give me back, give me back my Leningrad."
-- Leningrad Cowboys

This message is a reply to:
 Message 795 by Phat, posted 09-11-2022 3:05 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 20020
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 799 of 823 (897775)
09-11-2022 3:43 PM
Reply to: Message 797 by Phat
09-11-2022 3:23 PM


Re: Hatred Of Thinking?
Phat writes:
The only other thing I can think of is when you compare Jesus with Leprechauns. That is most definitely illogical.
You need to SHOW that it's illogical. FYI, "illogical" doesn't just mean that you don't like it. Show the actual fallacies.

"Oh no, They've gone and named my home St. Petersburg.
What's going on? Where are all the friends I had?
It's all wrong, I'm feeling lost like I just don't belong.
Give me back, give me back my Leningrad."
-- Leningrad Cowboys

This message is a reply to:
 Message 797 by Phat, posted 09-11-2022 3:23 PM Phat has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 800 by Percy, posted 09-12-2022 9:32 AM ringo has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 21176
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.1


(1)
Message 800 of 823 (897779)
09-12-2022 9:32 AM
Reply to: Message 799 by ringo
09-11-2022 3:43 PM


Re: Hatred Of Thinking?
You keep commenting on Phat's lack of comprehension, but he brings that same lack of comprehension to your comments about his lack of comprehension. It's like explaining thinks to a chatbot. For example, here are some Cleverbot responses to things you've said recently:
ringo writes:
Nor will any human. We can assign meaning. We can't "discover" it.
Cleverbot writes:
I am a human
...
ringo writes:
The idea of Christianity that I am expressing comes straight from the Bible, straight from Jesus Himself, according to the only evidence of Him that we have. You're mocking the Bible and you're mocking all we know about Jesus.
Cleverbot writes:
Well some of it.
...
ringo writes:
So you put yourself on an equal footing with the Gospel writers?
Cleverbot writes:
That computers can argue.
...
ringo writes:
That was the standard that Charles Manson used. I think we're going to use a higher standard.
Cleverbot writes:
You said you were human.
I submit that Phat is making just as much sense.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 799 by ringo, posted 09-11-2022 3:43 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 801 by ringo, posted 09-12-2022 11:40 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied
 Message 802 by nwr, posted 09-12-2022 1:13 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 20020
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


(1)
Message 801 of 823 (897784)
09-12-2022 11:40 AM
Reply to: Message 800 by Percy
09-12-2022 9:32 AM


Re: Hatred Of Thinking?
Percy writes:
I submit that Phat is making just as much sense.
I agree.
But I am talking TO Phat, not FOR Phat. It doesn't really matter if he doesn't understand.

Edited by ringo, : Corrected attribution.


"Oh no, They've gone and named my home St. Petersburg.
What's going on? Where are all the friends I had?
It's all wrong, I'm feeling lost like I just don't belong.
Give me back, give me back my Leningrad."
-- Leningrad Cowboys

This message is a reply to:
 Message 800 by Percy, posted 09-12-2022 9:32 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6114
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 3.3


(1)
Message 802 of 823 (897792)
09-12-2022 1:13 PM
Reply to: Message 800 by Percy
09-12-2022 9:32 AM


Re: Hatred Of Thinking?
I note that the subtitle is "hatred of thinking".
I doubt that Phat hates thinking. It's more likely that he just isn't very good at thinking. He never acquired the skills.

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

This message is a reply to:
 Message 800 by Percy, posted 09-12-2022 9:32 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 803 by Phat, posted 09-12-2022 1:28 PM nwr has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 16366
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 803 of 823 (897794)
09-12-2022 1:28 PM
Reply to: Message 802 by nwr
09-12-2022 1:13 PM


Re: Hatred Of Thinking?
The skills which I avoided were falsification, critical thinking, and data. I steered more towards belief at any cost. My motto was that if you don't stand for SOMETHING you are liable to fall for ANYTHING.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 802 by nwr, posted 09-12-2022 1:13 PM nwr has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 804 by nwr, posted 09-12-2022 1:44 PM Phat has not replied
 Message 806 by dwise1, posted 09-16-2022 2:48 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 808 by AZPaul3, posted 09-16-2022 3:56 PM Phat has replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6114
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 3.3


(1)
Message 804 of 823 (897797)
09-12-2022 1:44 PM
Reply to: Message 803 by Phat
09-12-2022 1:28 PM


Re: Hatred Of Thinking?
My motto was that if you don't stand for SOMETHING you are liable to fall for ANYTHING.
Yes, that's Phat -- liable to fall for anything. And we see that liability in his posts.

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

This message is a reply to:
 Message 803 by Phat, posted 09-12-2022 1:28 PM Phat has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 805 by Theodoric, posted 09-12-2022 2:45 PM nwr has seen this message but not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 7568
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 805 of 823 (897804)
09-12-2022 2:45 PM
Reply to: Message 804 by nwr
09-12-2022 1:44 PM


Re: Hatred Of Thinking?
It is amazing that in the 21st century that people are still proud of being ignorant and uneducated.
Phat writes:
The skills which I avoided were falsification, critical thinking, and data.
Says it all I guess.

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 804 by nwr, posted 09-12-2022 1:44 PM nwr has seen this message but not replied

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 5287
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 3.3


(2)
Message 806 of 823 (897949)
09-16-2022 2:48 PM
Reply to: Message 803 by Phat
09-12-2022 1:28 PM


Re: Hatred Of Thinking?
My motto was that if you don't stand for SOMETHING you are liable to fall for ANYTHING.
[voice=Horshack]Ooh! Ooh! Ooh![/voice]
I know that one! It was featured in proselytizing/propaganda cartoon training materials for the Jesus Freaks circa 1970 (NOTE: basically, Hippies for Jesus which evolved into modern-day fundamentalism): "If you don't stand for something, then you'll fall for anything!"
But what about this permutation?: If you don't question anything, then you'll fall for anything.
quote:
I Thessalonians (KJV):
5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
Another translation: "Test everything; hold fast to that which is true."
If you stand for complete and utter bullshit, then you will get your reward (and richly deserve every miserable moment of it). But if you test and verify the bullshit that you are being fed, then you will be able to avoid ingesting it -- "You are what you eat." ("Man ist was man ißt.")
So is bullshit more valuable to you than the truth? You say that bullshit is more valuable to you? How very sad.
The skills which I avoided were falsification, critical thinking, and data. I steered more towards belief at any cost.
Again:
quote:
I Thessalonians (KJV):
5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
Another translation: "Test everything; hold fast to that which is true."
Oh, but that's just what the Bible is telling you to do! Since when have you ever cared what the Bible says?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 803 by Phat, posted 09-12-2022 1:28 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 5287
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 807 of 823 (897950)
09-16-2022 3:12 PM
Reply to: Message 797 by Phat
09-11-2022 3:23 PM


Re: Hatred Of Thinking?
The only other thing I can think of is when you compare Jesus with Leprechauns. That is most definitely illogical.
Really? Is there some kind of ranking system for invisible friends? How does your Jesus invisible friend measure up against Hitler as Jojo Rabbit's invisible friend? (HINT: Jojo Rabbit won an Oscar)
One test is to notice how one's invisible friend hates the same people that you do and how it agrees with you most of the time. Or at least will always be ready to forgive you of anything you do wrong.
Of course, there's also the problem of one's invisible friend refusing to forgive one. I would think that that would be a sign of very serious psychological problems that would require professional help.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 797 by Phat, posted 09-11-2022 3:23 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 816 by Phat, posted 09-18-2022 10:31 AM dwise1 has not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 7046
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 808 of 823 (897953)
09-16-2022 3:56 PM
Reply to: Message 803 by Phat
09-12-2022 1:28 PM


Re: Hatred Of Thinking?
I steered more towards belief at any cost.
"steered" past tense.
So this has changed and you now accept, endorse and practice falsification, critical thinking, and data?
Yes, would be a good answer.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 803 by Phat, posted 09-12-2022 1:28 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 809 by Phat, posted 09-16-2022 4:01 PM AZPaul3 has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 16366
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 809 of 823 (897954)
09-16-2022 4:01 PM
Reply to: Message 808 by AZPaul3
09-16-2022 3:56 PM


Re: Hatred Of Thinking?
To a limited degree, yes. I will never throw away my belief (my core belief that there is one God, Jesus is His character and representative, and He desires to be eternally in communion with humanity rather than letting us go to our eventual destruction without Him)
But I am learning to think more, apart from the whole science thing about falsifying an argument. Perhaps that is why jar always wanted me to let go and throw it all away so that I could get a fresh perspective.
When I see how much you hate the very idea of an authority figure, I conclude that we need one.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 808 by AZPaul3, posted 09-16-2022 3:56 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 810 by AZPaul3, posted 09-16-2022 4:27 PM Phat has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 7046
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 2.9


(3)
Message 810 of 823 (897957)
09-16-2022 4:27 PM
Reply to: Message 809 by Phat
09-16-2022 4:01 PM


Re: Hatred Of Thinking?
When I see how much you hate the very idea of an authority figure, I conclude that we need one.
I hate ANY version of a supernatural majikal sky monster you insist we all worship.
That has nothing to do with any authority figure but has to do with an evil figure.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 809 by Phat, posted 09-16-2022 4:01 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 811 by Phat, posted 09-18-2022 9:09 AM AZPaul3 has replied

  
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