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Author
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Topic: Anti-theist
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ringo
Member (Idle past 434 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 751 of 895 (897483)
09-06-2022 12:59 PM
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Reply to: Message 749 by Phat
09-05-2022 3:17 PM
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Re: William Lane Craig Revealed?
Phat writes: I suppose it is healthy to question and even doubt at times
It is ALWAYS healthy to question and doubt. It is NEVER healthy to slavishly follow "what sounds good" even if it comes from the Almighty William Lane Craig. (I don't know who that is, by the way.)
Phat writes: When the economy goes berzerk...
I laugh. We have a commercial with a guy talking about "the great recession of 2008". I never noticed it. I was doing pretty well at the time. In my memory, we have had several worse economic periods, some of which effected me and some of which didn't.
Phat writes: ... as it surely will within 5 years at the latest
Hint for wannabe prophets: Don't predict anything within your own lifetime.
"Oh no, They've gone and named my home St. Petersburg.
What's going on? Where are all the friends I had?
It's all wrong, I'm feeling lost like I just don't belong.
Give me back, give me back my Leningrad."
-- Leningrad Cowboys
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 749 by Phat, posted 09-05-2022 3:17 PM | | Phat has seen this message but not replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18310 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.1
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Message 752 of 895 (897490)
09-06-2022 2:04 PM
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Reply to: Message 750 by AZPaul3
09-05-2022 4:35 PM
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Re: William Lane Craig, The Profit.
WLC is not one of my favorites anyway. Like everyone, he is human and fallible. Granted I see your collective points regarding his undue influence on students who are Christian and struggling with their faith. I believe, however, that nobody should be talked or coached out of their faith. If the world were full of atheists, our problems would be worse...not better. And the economy (globally) will get markedly worse. I need not prophecy. Just watch the news.
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 750 by AZPaul3, posted 09-05-2022 4:35 PM | | AZPaul3 has not replied |
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nwr
Member Posts: 6409 From: Geneva, Illinois Joined: 08-08-2005 Member Rating: 5.3
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Message 753 of 895 (897497)
09-06-2022 2:19 PM
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Reply to: Message 752 by Phat
09-06-2022 2:04 PM
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Re: William Lane Craig, The Profit.
I believe, however, that nobody should be talked or coached out of their faith. Then nobody should be talked into a faith. So WLC should be out of a job.
Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 752 by Phat, posted 09-06-2022 2:04 PM | | Phat has seen this message but not replied |
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Theodoric
Member Posts: 9143 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: 08-15-2005 Member Rating: 3.3
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Message 754 of 895 (897506)
09-06-2022 6:43 PM
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Reply to: Message 752 by Phat
09-06-2022 2:04 PM
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Evil atheists, collapsing economy. Phat's visions
How and why would the world be worse? The economy seems to be doing quite well considering we are coming out of a world spanning pandemic and there is a major war going on. Tell us more about this collapsing economy you see. Facts and data only please.
What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness. If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 752 by Phat, posted 09-06-2022 2:04 PM | | Phat has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 763 by Phat, posted 09-08-2022 11:17 AM | | Theodoric has replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 434 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 755 of 895 (897520)
09-07-2022 11:46 AM
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Reply to: Message 752 by Phat
09-06-2022 2:04 PM
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Re: William Lane Craig, The Profit.
Phat writes: I believe, however, that nobody should be talked or coached out of their faith.
Does that include Islam? And if they could be talked out of it, how valid was it anyway? I think freeing people from slavery is a good thing. People should be taught how to think their way out of it.
"Oh no, They've gone and named my home St. Petersburg.
What's going on? Where are all the friends I had?
It's all wrong, I'm feeling lost like I just don't belong.
Give me back, give me back my Leningrad."
-- Leningrad Cowboys
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 752 by Phat, posted 09-06-2022 2:04 PM | | Phat has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 756 by Phat, posted 09-07-2022 12:05 PM | | ringo has replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18310 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.1
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Message 756 of 895 (897523)
09-07-2022 12:05 PM
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Reply to: Message 755 by ringo
09-07-2022 11:46 AM
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Keyword: Son. We are sons, not slaves.
ringo writes: Does that include Islam? Not if you are coaching them to throw Allah away. If you are a Christian, OTOH, you can explain to them that Allah really DID have a Son. 
And if they could be talked out of it, how valid was it anyway? You sure either got talked out of it or talked yourself out of it quite easily.
I think freeing people from slavery is a good thing. Except that Christians are taught that we are sons and daughters. NOT Slaves. People should be taught how to think their way out of it. People should be taught to think period. There is not always a need to get out of something unless it is harmful for you.
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 755 by ringo, posted 09-07-2022 11:46 AM | | ringo has replied |
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Theodoric
Member Posts: 9143 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: 08-15-2005 Member Rating: 3.3
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Message 757 of 895 (897525)
09-07-2022 12:23 PM
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Reply to: Message 756 by Phat
09-07-2022 12:05 PM
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Re: Keyword: Son. We are sons, not slaves.
If you are a Christian, OTOH, you can explain to them that Allah really DID have a Son.
So you think it is ok to try to talk people out of their religion.
You sure either got talked out of it or talked yourself out of it quite easily.
Why would you say this? One it doesn't support you but rather him. You truly are that clueless. Also, you have no idea why he or anyone else is an atheist. I see you won't respond to Message 754. Typical.
What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness. If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 756 by Phat, posted 09-07-2022 12:05 PM | | Phat has seen this message but not replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 434 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 758 of 895 (897526)
09-07-2022 12:37 PM
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Reply to: Message 756 by Phat
09-07-2022 12:05 PM
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Re: Keyword: Son. We are sons, not slaves.
Phat writes: Not if you are coaching them to throw Allah away. If you are a Christian, OTOH, you can explain to them that Allah really DID have a Son.
What about Hindus, then? Which of the Hindu gods can you shoehorn your Jesus into?
Phat writes: You sure either got talked out of it or talked yourself out of it quite easily.
You wish that was true, don't you? You wish you could believe that MY faith was never as strong as YOUR faith. But it isn't true. Not even close to being close to being true. I never had anybody try to talk me out of my faith (see disclaimer below). On the contrary, just about everybody I knew tried to keep me IN my faith. It would have been SOOOOO easy to keep believing.... Except that there was no truth to the belief. It wasn't that I didn't WANT to believe. It was that what I was supposed to believe was nonsense. Disclaimer: It was people like YOU who destroyed my beliefs. Your utterly stupid attempts to bolster your utterly stupid beliefs only confirm that it would be utterly stupid to fall into that trap again.
Phat writes: Except that Christians are taught that we are sons and daughters. NOT Slaves.
You're taught lies. Have you ever seen Conan the Barbarian? Thulsa Doom (James Earl Jones) calls Conan (Arnold Schwarzenegger), "My son, my son," as he is hypnotizing him so he can kill him. You're a slave who has been fooled into thinking he's a son. You're a janitor who thinks he owns the building.
Phat writes: People should be taught to think period.
And yet you're constantly talking against evidence, rationality, skepticism, etc. Practice what you preach. If people would THINK rationally, skeptically, based on evidence, there would be a lot less religion in the world.
Phat writes: There is not always a need to get out of something unless it is harmful for you.
But it IS harmful to you. Your faith has made you an arrogant bastard who thinks he knows better than everybody else. You're constantly telling us that "we'll see" that you were right. It's harming you financially. It's harmin your physical heath and your mental health.
"Oh no, They've gone and named my home St. Petersburg.
What's going on? Where are all the friends I had?
It's all wrong, I'm feeling lost like I just don't belong.
Give me back, give me back my Leningrad."
-- Leningrad Cowboys
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 756 by Phat, posted 09-07-2022 12:05 PM | | Phat has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 760 by Phat, posted 09-08-2022 10:58 AM | | ringo has replied | | | Message 762 by Phat, posted 09-08-2022 11:14 AM | | ringo has replied |
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Percy
Member Posts: 22480 From: New Hampshire Joined: 12-23-2000 Member Rating: 4.8
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Message 759 of 895 (897533)
09-07-2022 1:12 PM
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Reply to: Message 756 by Phat
09-07-2022 12:05 PM
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Re: Keyword: Son. We are sons, not slaves.
Please get help. I'm sure that from inside yourself it feels like you're making sense, but you're not. I don't believe your claims of improved health. If you really believe you're getting healthier then you're fooling yourself. It isn't possible that you're getting healthier at the same time that you're sinking more and more deeply into irrationality and senselessness. --Percy
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 756 by Phat, posted 09-07-2022 12:05 PM | | Phat has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 761 by Phat, posted 09-08-2022 11:10 AM | | Percy has seen this message but not replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18310 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.1
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Message 760 of 895 (897568)
09-08-2022 10:58 AM
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Reply to: Message 758 by ringo
09-07-2022 12:37 PM
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Re: Keyword: Son. We are sons, not slaves.
ringo writes: You and GDR postulate a puny god who can't do this and can't understand that. We humans create things that are deliberately stronger than us and smarter than us. First off, it was meant to be a joke directed at you. At how you can't understand a God who "allows evil". Second of all, if you can imagine a God stronger and smarter than you, and if you claim that YOUR Faith was every bit as strong---stronger even than MY faith, why did you dump Jesus? And if you were Christian...Mennonite or whatever...you would have known Jesus. You likely feared God more than I do...I argue and wrestle with Him often. I don't see something in the Good Book (no longer dusty, I wiped it clean with a sanitizing towelette) as an ironclad rule that I MUST follow or else, I would get struck dead like Annanias and Saphira! You claim that I mock Jesus. Challenging Him is NOT mocking Him. Again, I'm a Son...NOT a Slave.
ringo writes: You wish you could believe that MY faith was never as strong as YOUR faith. I think that your Faith was so authoritarian that you were afraid--at first--to talk yourself out of it. Once you did, you left in peace secure in your new knowledge of facts and critical thought...yet sad to wave away Jesus as some human-created mythos. I would NEVER do such a thing. Perhaps I don't listen to Him as strongly as you once did, but I have no regrets. Evil exists. Humans initially actualized it--not God. God is only responsible for potentiating it. The apologist would argue that evil had to be part of the option of true free will.
Peter Kreeft originally came up with this thesis in his interview with Lee Strobel in The Case for Faith: A Journalist Investigates the Toughest Objections to Christianity (Lee Strobel) .
Wiki writes: Kreeft joined the philosophy faculty of the Department of Philosophy of Boston College in 1965.[7] He has debated several academics in issues related to God's existence. Shortly after he began teaching at Boston College he was challenged to a debate on the existence of God between himself and Paul Breines, an atheist and history professor, which was attended by a majority of undergraduate students. Kreeft later used many of the arguments in this debate to create the Handbook of Christian Apologetics with then undergraduate student Ronald K. Tacelli. (...) Breines tells how he grew up in Scarsdale, NY, the son of politically aware and intellectually inclined parents. He characterizes himself as a "red-diaper baby"—a child born to parents who are leftists—but claims to have been a typical high school student concerned mainly with the things immediately around him. Apparantly, Kreeft and Breines had several debates....including one notable one on Abortion. As for Kreeft, Wiki writes: Kreeft converted to Catholicism during his college years.[10] A key turning point came when he was asked by a Calvinist professor to investigate the claims of the Catholic Church that it traced itself to the early Church. He said that, on his own, he "discovered in the early Church such Catholic elements as the centrality of the Eucharist, the Real Presence, prayers to saints, devotion to Mary, an insistence on visible unity, and apostolic succession."[11] The "central and deciding" factor for his conversion was "the Church's claim to be the one Church historically founded by Christ."[11] He reportedly applied C. S. Lewis's trilemma (either Jesus is Lunatic, Liar, or Lord): "I thought, just as Jesus made a claim about His identity that forces us into one of only two camps ... so the Catholic Church’s claim to be the one true Church, the Church Christ founded, forces us to say either that this is the most arrogant, blasphemous and wicked claim imaginable if it is not true, or else that she is just what she claims to be."[12] According to Kreeft's personal account, his conversion to Catholic Christianity was influenced by, among other things, Gothic architecture and Thomistic philosophy, the writings of St. John of the Cross, the logic of asking saints to pray for us, and a visit to St. Patrick's Cathedral in New York City when he was twelve years old, "feeling like I was in heaven ... and wondering why, if Catholics got everything else wrong, as I had been taught, they got beauty so right..."[13] Although a Catholic, he places central emphasis on the unity between Catholics and Protestants.[14] Im not against intelligent debates...no matter which "side" wins. Im in favor of intelligence and feel that it should *not* lead to abandoning ones faith, as has happened to so many of you.
ringo writes: It is ALWAYS healthy to question and doubt. It is NEVER healthy to slavishly follow "what sounds good" even if it comes from the Almighty William Lane Craig.  OK, I agree.
ringo writes: I never had anybody try to talk me out of my faith (see disclaimer below). On the contrary, just about everybody I knew tried to keep me IN my faith. It would have been SOOOOO easy to keep believing.... Except that there was no truth to the belief. It wasn't that I didn't WANT to believe. It was that what I was supposed to believe was nonsense. Thats because you and dwise1 and perhaps Arizona Paul are quite literal in your thought process. If an oddly shaped alian body were ever found, you all would jump on that belief simply due to the facts of scientific enquiry and evidence. Heck, dwise1 gave up after reading Genesis!! I would have given up too!  But allow me to insert a disclaimer. I dont resent you all having given up. AZPaul3 bases much of his argument on the wickedness of Christians throughout History and the literal wickedness of the God(one of them, anyway) who ordered the slaughter of innocents. Additionally, you can make a case for the modern conservatives and their slavish devotion to Trump. They are more like slaves than the Christians are!
ringo writes: What about Hindus, then? Which of the Hindu gods can you shoehorn your Jesus into? Unlike you, I believe that Christianity is the one true faith. Call me dogmatic and narrow-minded, I really don't care. Faith (our late creationist) would never be as favorable towards Kreeft simply because he was and is a Catholic. I do have a report from her by the way, which I will share with all of you, though it is directed towards Percy. From E-Mail:
[Email from Faith removed because in my judgment it contained too much of a personal nature. --Admin] Anyway, I rarely talk with her and am sorry that her eyesight is so bad. I just wanted everyone to know that she still thinks about us. I really wish she didn't loathe herself though. My sins are far worse than hers, and perhaps I take God too casually. Edited by Admin, . Edited by Admin, : Removed email from Faith.
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 758 by ringo, posted 09-07-2022 12:37 PM | | ringo has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 766 by ringo, posted 09-08-2022 12:42 PM | | Phat has not replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18310 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.1
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Message 761 of 895 (897569)
09-08-2022 11:10 AM
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Reply to: Message 759 by Percy
09-07-2022 1:12 PM
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Getting Help
First of all, I appreciate your concerns. I know I'm a nut sometimes...but its not due to high sugars. Right now, my meter shows 179 and heading lower. So the A1C is indeed coming down. Before this new endocrinologist, my sugars were over 300 much of the time. Hopefully, my mental cognition was not permanently altered, but time will tell.
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 759 by Percy, posted 09-07-2022 1:12 PM | | Percy has seen this message but not replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18310 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.1
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Message 762 of 895 (897571)
09-08-2022 11:14 AM
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Reply to: Message 758 by ringo
09-07-2022 12:37 PM
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Re: Keyword: Son. We are sons, not slaves.
ringo writes: Your faith has made you an arrogant bastard who thinks he knows better than everybody else. You're constantly telling us that "we'll see" that you were right. It's harming you financially. It's harming your physical health and your mental health. I won't disagree except to say not to blame Jesus for my behavior. It is all on me.
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 758 by ringo, posted 09-07-2022 12:37 PM | | ringo has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 767 by ringo, posted 09-08-2022 12:46 PM | | Phat has replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18310 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.1
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Message 763 of 895 (897572)
09-08-2022 11:17 AM
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Reply to: Message 754 by Theodoric
09-06-2022 6:43 PM
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Re: Evil atheists, collapsing economy. Phat's visions
Theodoric writes: How and why would the world be worse? The economy seems to be doing quite well considering we are coming out of a world-spanning pandemic and there is a major war going on. Tell us more about this collapsing economy you see. Facts and data only, please. Thats what is taking me so long to respond. Your standard for facts and data is quite high. As I said before, however, the news will explain itself over the next year. We are likely about a year away from some major events. And I'm not talking Armageddon! The Lord Himself says in scripture that the "end is not yet".
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 754 by Theodoric, posted 09-06-2022 6:43 PM | | Theodoric has replied |
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Theodoric
Member Posts: 9143 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: 08-15-2005 Member Rating: 3.3
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Message 764 of 895 (897575)
09-08-2022 11:38 AM
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Reply to: Message 763 by Phat
09-08-2022 11:17 AM
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Re: Evil atheists, collapsing economy. Phat's visions
That is not a response.
What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness. If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 763 by Phat, posted 09-08-2022 11:17 AM | | Phat has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 765 by Phat, posted 09-08-2022 11:39 AM | | Theodoric has replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18310 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.1
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Message 765 of 895 (897576)
09-08-2022 11:39 AM
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Reply to: Message 764 by Theodoric
09-08-2022 11:38 AM
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Re: Evil atheists, collapsing economy. Phat's visions
You DO realize that replying to you involves nearly as much scholarly work as a small term paper! The evidence is there, though. Do you really want me to work that hard?
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 764 by Theodoric, posted 09-08-2022 11:38 AM | | Theodoric has replied |
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