Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 60 (9084 total)
112 online now:
AZPaul3, nwr, Tangle (3 members, 109 visitors)
Newest Member: evolujtion_noob
Post Volume: Total: 897,459 Year: 8,571/6,534 Month: 52/1,588 Week: 3/406 Day: 3/49 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Anti-theist
Phat
Member
Posts: 16366
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 736 of 823 (897115)
08-29-2022 2:32 PM
Reply to: Message 735 by ringo
08-29-2022 1:31 PM


Re: Something Positive
Jesus also said blessed are those who have *not* seen and have yet believed. What's your point?
You would likely be even worse than Thomas.
Ringo: "Unless all of my friends and colleagues agree with the evidence you show me, I'll forever doubt."
Or even worse:
Ringo: "Unless the people who claim to be followers give everything up in order to follow you, I will have my doubts that anyone knows you."

Edited by Phat, : added sentence


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 735 by ringo, posted 08-29-2022 1:31 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 737 by Theodoric, posted 08-29-2022 3:43 PM Phat has replied
 Message 741 by ringo, posted 08-30-2022 12:00 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 7568
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 737 of 823 (897128)
08-29-2022 3:43 PM
Reply to: Message 736 by Phat
08-29-2022 2:32 PM


Re: Something Positive
Repeating ad infinitum. There is no evidence.

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 736 by Phat, posted 08-29-2022 2:32 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 738 by Phat, posted 08-29-2022 4:04 PM Theodoric has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 16366
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 738 of 823 (897134)
08-29-2022 4:04 PM
Reply to: Message 737 by Theodoric
08-29-2022 3:43 PM


Re: Something Positive
OK so we can agree that there is no evidence. Now what?
(off to work...will respond later. )

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 737 by Theodoric, posted 08-29-2022 3:43 PM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 739 by Theodoric, posted 08-29-2022 4:06 PM Phat has not replied
 Message 740 by AZPaul3, posted 08-29-2022 8:08 PM Phat has not replied
 Message 742 by ringo, posted 08-30-2022 12:06 PM Phat has replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 7568
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.7


(1)
Message 739 of 823 (897136)
08-29-2022 4:06 PM
Reply to: Message 738 by Phat
08-29-2022 4:04 PM


Re: Something Positive
Do you actually understand what you post?

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 738 by Phat, posted 08-29-2022 4:04 PM Phat has not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 7046
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 2.9


(2)
Message 740 of 823 (897153)
08-29-2022 8:08 PM
Reply to: Message 738 by Phat
08-29-2022 4:04 PM


Re: Something Positive
OK so we can agree that there is no evidence. Now what?
Now you stop claiming that your god is real and affects this universe in any way.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 738 by Phat, posted 08-29-2022 4:04 PM Phat has not replied

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 20020
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 741 of 823 (897170)
08-30-2022 12:00 PM
Reply to: Message 736 by Phat
08-29-2022 2:32 PM


Re: Something Positive
Phat writes:
Jesus also said blessed are those who have *not* seen and have yet believed. What's your point?
The point is that Jesus presented evidence. Jesus respected evidence. You do not.
Phat writes:
You would likely be even worse than Thomas.
Again, it's not about being "better" or "worse" than Thomas. Read my lips: Jesus voluntarily presented evidence to the other disciples when Thomas was not there. Thomas doubted the disciples. He didn't doubt Jesus. When Thomas was present, Jesus AGAIN voluntarily presented evidence to him. NOBODY in the story believed without evidence.
Phat writes:
Ringo: "Unless all of my friends and colleagues agree with the evidence you show me, I'll forever doubt."
Forever doubting is a good thing. Always be skeptical, no matter how much evidence there is. One little piece of new evidence can change everything. Take Newtonian mechanics. ALL of the evidence supported it - until it didn't.
Phat writes:
Or even worse:
Ringo: "Unless the people who claim to be followers give everything up in order to follow you, I will have my doubts that anyone knows you."
How is that worse?
And it isn't just that I "have doubts" about anybody knowing God. I have a pretty solid conclusion that YOU don't.

"Oh no, They've gone and named my home St. Petersburg.
What's going on? Where are all the friends I had?
It's all wrong, I'm feeling lost like I just don't belong.
Give me back, give me back my Leningrad."
-- Leningrad Cowboys

This message is a reply to:
 Message 736 by Phat, posted 08-29-2022 2:32 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 20020
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 742 of 823 (897172)
08-30-2022 12:06 PM
Reply to: Message 738 by Phat
08-29-2022 4:04 PM


Re: Something Positive
Phat writes:
OK so we can agree that there is no evidence. Now what?
I've told this story before: When we were kids, I could demonstrate to my younger brother that [something] was not true and his response would be, "But I think it is." I could demonstrate six ways from Sunday that it was NOT true and his reponse would still be, "But I think it is."
That's you. Nothing can sway you. No facts, no logic, no reality. Your opinion trumps all.

"Oh no, They've gone and named my home St. Petersburg.
What's going on? Where are all the friends I had?
It's all wrong, I'm feeling lost like I just don't belong.
Give me back, give me back my Leningrad."
-- Leningrad Cowboys

This message is a reply to:
 Message 738 by Phat, posted 08-29-2022 4:04 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 743 by Phat, posted 08-30-2022 12:26 PM ringo has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 16366
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 743 of 823 (897174)
08-30-2022 12:26 PM
Reply to: Message 742 by ringo
08-30-2022 12:06 PM


Re: Something Positive
You are right, but please use a different word than "trumps all". I dont like that word for some reason.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 742 by ringo, posted 08-30-2022 12:06 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 744 by ringo, posted 08-30-2022 12:30 PM Phat has replied

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 20020
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


(4)
Message 744 of 823 (897175)
08-30-2022 12:30 PM
Reply to: Message 743 by Phat
08-30-2022 12:26 PM


Re: Something Positive
Phat writes:
please use a different word than "trumps all". I dont like that word for some reason.
I used it deliberately. I almost capitalized it to emphasize the point.
(For somebody who claims not to like Trump, you sure agree with him a lot.)

"Oh no, They've gone and named my home St. Petersburg.
What's going on? Where are all the friends I had?
It's all wrong, I'm feeling lost like I just don't belong.
Give me back, give me back my Leningrad."
-- Leningrad Cowboys

This message is a reply to:
 Message 743 by Phat, posted 08-30-2022 12:26 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 745 by Phat, posted 08-30-2022 3:43 PM ringo has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 16366
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 745 of 823 (897182)
08-30-2022 3:43 PM
Reply to: Message 744 by ringo
08-30-2022 12:30 PM


Re: Something Positive
Its not Trump I agree with Its conservative platforms like continuing with oil and gas until we get green off the ground, which most experts say will take between 10 and 20 years. Its keeping the place running instead of making ourselves feel the pinch while China burns coal and goes full ahead. What we need to get a handle on is spending...Although I think it's too late for that. America is like an addict in regard to money. We won't ever quit spending.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 744 by ringo, posted 08-30-2022 12:30 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 746 by ringo, posted 08-31-2022 11:43 AM Phat has not replied
 Message 747 by Percy, posted 08-31-2022 3:30 PM Phat has not replied

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 20020
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 746 of 823 (897213)
08-31-2022 11:43 AM
Reply to: Message 745 by Phat
08-30-2022 3:43 PM


Re: Something Positive
Phat writes:
Its not Trump I agree with Its conservative platforms like continuing with oil and gas until we get green off the ground
O come on. You should know better than that. If you agree with A and Trump agrees with A, then you agree with Trump.
And it's pretty likely that what Trump agrees with is good for Trump, not you.
As for the blah blah blah about spending, shove it.

"Oh no, They've gone and named my home St. Petersburg.
What's going on? Where are all the friends I had?
It's all wrong, I'm feeling lost like I just don't belong.
Give me back, give me back my Leningrad."
-- Leningrad Cowboys

This message is a reply to:
 Message 745 by Phat, posted 08-30-2022 3:43 PM Phat has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 21176
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 747 of 823 (897225)
08-31-2022 3:30 PM
Reply to: Message 745 by Phat
08-30-2022 3:43 PM


Re: Something Positive
Phat writes:
Its not Trump I agree with, it's conservative platforms like continuing with oil and gas until we get green off the ground, which most experts say will take between 10 and 20 years.
No one who's taken seriously is arguing for abandoning fossil fuels before alternatives are in place. Where conservatives and liberals differ is the degree to which government should play a role in encouraging the transition.
Its keeping the place running instead of making ourselves feel the pinch while China burns coal and goes full ahead.
As new technologies are increasingly adopted they inevitably become cheaper. That's what happens with everything, from cars to rockets to computers. The price of solar is a fraction of what it was 30 years ago, same for wind, same for batteries. To the extent China stays married to fossil fuels they fall further behind. They also remain a major contributor to climate change while making the planet a dirtier place for everyone.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 745 by Phat, posted 08-30-2022 3:43 PM Phat has not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 7046
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 2.9


(1)
Message 748 of 823 (897413)
09-04-2022 10:44 PM


William Lane Craig Revealed?
We’ve heard this name a few times in various discussions around these parts. William Lane Craig is a popular religious nutcase always proposing elaborate schemes to justify Christianity as the only game in town. Phat is a fan, cites his stuff now and then. Others have used his words, his illogical sillygisms, as proof they need to rule the world. Quite popular with the Christians because, though his schtick is logically stupid, he presents it so well.
Well, turns out there are PHILISOPHICAL sins to be admitted by the great apologist. Surprising admissions of acceptance of his pascal's wager conversion as a teen sans any thought basis other than he was impressed by the message. Lots of philosophical heavy work in that one. And he wants to lower the bar more.
Have to wonder if he recognizes he has admitted the emotional base from which his religion springs without any efficacy. His religion is purely emotional and nothing more. No still small voices, no epiphany. Just a scary story and pascal’s wager.
And he wants to lower the bar of efficacy, the level of feeble excuse and smoke and mirrors at which he wants people to believe, even further.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

Replies to this message:
 Message 749 by Phat, posted 09-05-2022 3:17 PM AZPaul3 has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 16366
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 749 of 823 (897440)
09-05-2022 3:17 PM
Reply to: Message 748 by AZPaul3
09-04-2022 10:44 PM


Re: William Lane Craig Revealed?
AZ whatever am I going to do with you? You not only adopted the mousey little Mr.Deity (Way Of The Mister indeed! ) but you now are questioning the mind of William Lane Craig! I suppose it is healthy to question and even doubt at times, but look at the fruit it has produced in your life! You are mad at all religious minds and souls.
When the economy goes berzerk, as it surely will within 5 years at the latest, and when food scarcity, wars and rumors of wars, and draconian politicians who want to indoctrinate children to understand their sexuality away from their parents become common (oh wait...it already has! ) you can rest assured that the culture war will have become mainstream. Hopefully, you and I can continue talking through all of this
foreknown chaos. Oh and by the way, I'm interested in this Paulogia fellow. I plan on watching a few of his episodes!

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 748 by AZPaul3, posted 09-04-2022 10:44 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 750 by AZPaul3, posted 09-05-2022 4:35 PM Phat has replied
 Message 751 by ringo, posted 09-06-2022 12:59 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 7046
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 750 of 823 (897448)
09-05-2022 4:35 PM
Reply to: Message 749 by Phat
09-05-2022 3:17 PM


William Lane Craig, The Profit.
The point you miss, Phat, is that for all these years of lectures and books, attempted proofs, (il)logical sillygisms for decades was all a sham. He has admitted that his religious views were purely emotional from the outset as he sees intellect having no part in what GDR might call "choosing a faith".
The first religious story he heard and, without any thought, he swallowed the obligatory hook, line, sinker. He may be a believer but he's been faking his story ever since. He has such a great presentation and personality and the show worked out for him with money, women, fame.
Ok, so maybe, like Joel Osteen, Ray Comfort, others he's not so dumb. Just another corrupt charlatan fleecing his flock.
Now, he's on to the schtick that if he can dumb down the intellectual requirements for belief, indeed eliminate them, the more, and easier, flock he'll have to fleece.
He's been lying to you, Phat. Everything he has presented has not been for some higher purpose, but clumsily crafted for his traveling medicine show.
You are mad at all religious minds and souls.
Not so much mad as exceptionally disappointed. Increasingly intolerant. The human species was supposed to be better than this by now but shitheads like Craig keep poisoning the human mind. And not for god but for profit.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 749 by Phat, posted 09-05-2022 3:17 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 752 by Phat, posted 09-06-2022 2:04 PM AZPaul3 has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2022 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.1
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2022