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Author Topic:   Anti-theist
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 273 of 895 (885507)
04-15-2021 8:50 AM
Reply to: Message 272 by jar
04-14-2021 8:11 PM


Re: What does the evidence show Phat?
jar writes:
Who, other than humans, should a rational person count on?
Is there ANY evidence that there is any other source of change?
Message 18
jar writes:
Honestly, I see little hope of the US not becoming a total Fascist Autocracy withing a decade or two at the most.
So you, I, and AZ Paul3 agree that the future seems bleak, right? Or are we more optimistic?
In my neck of the woods, people went to church to worship, fellowship and commune with others, and lay their burdens on an altar where they collectively believed that a Higher Power actually existed and whom heard their prayers.
More than a mere genie or a fantasy, however. Lots of testimonies, at any rate. And you don't buy it. Why do you even go to church? Why do you bother reading the BCP with your friends? Why not just dump the Episcopalians and their robes and vestments, go and start a secular humanist do-good club?

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 272 by jar, posted 04-14-2021 8:11 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 274 by jar, posted 04-15-2021 9:19 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 276 of 895 (885539)
04-17-2021 9:56 AM
Reply to: Message 275 by ringo
04-16-2021 12:18 PM


Far Left Behind
ringo writes:
How can you call yourself a "moderate" when you agree whole-heartedly with the Right and admit that you don't know what the Left thinks?
My sister is Left Wing,a child of the sixties protests, as is one of my high school buddies.(Who considers himself a proud member of the Christian Left )
Most of the conservatives at church are not too bright....I only have two other conservative friends who are brilliant...one is a CPA and one is a Rocket Scientist. You yourself have claimed Far Left ideology, and I like talking with you.
When I say I don't know what the Left is, what I really mean is that I dont understand a reason anybody would want to be Far Left. Didnt Joe McCarthy get rid of all of you unpatriotic Globalists?

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 275 by ringo, posted 04-16-2021 12:18 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 279 by ringo, posted 04-17-2021 11:58 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 277 of 895 (885541)
04-17-2021 10:10 AM
Reply to: Message 274 by jar
04-15-2021 9:19 AM


Re: What does the evidence show Phat?
jar writes:
For the same reason no one else has ever been able to understand or receive a relationship (awareness, inner confirmation) from Jesus or the Holy Spirit.
Oh there are plenty of us who have received such a relationship. We just cant objectively prove it to you.
jar writes:
For the same reason no one has even been able to explain what "understand or receive a relationship (awareness, inner confirmation) from Jesus or the Holy Spirit" even means?
It is true that we cant explain it to *you*. Not to everyone. Some folks just get it. Feel free to warn *the world* that we are collectively a danger.
jar writes:
Christianity is supposed to be a do-good club.
It ain't what we preach or believe or say or chant that is witnessing, it is what we do.
I cant ever argue this point with you. You are right. How many times need we go around this same mountain?
jar writes:
Learn the basics Phat.
The works you have given us to do!
You? You Who?
(Oh that's right....I keep forgetting that *you* threw SOURCE Away!)

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 274 by jar, posted 04-15-2021 9:19 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 280 by jar, posted 04-17-2021 1:02 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 278 of 895 (885542)
04-17-2021 10:17 AM
Reply to: Message 271 by Rahvin
04-14-2021 7:43 PM


Re: Phat, Explain Yourself
Rahvin writes:
It would be hard to do a *worse* job than Christianity has historically done. But please support the assertion that "secular humanist scientists" are trying to "do away with religion." This is not a part of any political party's electoral platform, and neither is banning religion something even secular humanist atheists actually want to do. Rather, they want to promote rational thinking to the point people abandon religion on their own. Religion is a symptom of the irrationality disease; education is the only necessary cure. There's no need to "do away with" anything.
Good point, Rahvin. Can I count you as an anti-theist?
And did it ever occur to you that the things that Jesus was attacking were not people themselves but principalities,powers, and wickedness in high places? Or do you consider the whole idea absurd?

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 271 by Rahvin, posted 04-14-2021 7:43 PM Rahvin has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 825 by Rahvin, posted 12-25-2022 11:49 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 281 of 895 (885548)
04-17-2021 1:38 PM
Reply to: Message 280 by jar
04-17-2021 1:02 PM


Re: What does the evidence show Phat?
OK You Win. I ill honestly say though that it sticks in my craw even considering that SOURCE (Accepting Jesus Christ and allowing His Spirit to co-mingle with your own) is irrelevant. You once said that even if Jesus was just a Tale told round the campfire the message would still have value. Anglagard has no problem with a Jesus who was and is only human. ringo talks of the message being more relevant than the messenger. And yet quite honestly I NEED a supernatural God.
I am a Christian.
I am an Episcopalian.
And I always was envious of the fact that you never seemed to need God. You simply assumed that you had your marching orders and so you went and marched. I tried for years to find chinks in your armor. Flaws in your arguments. You mocked Biblical Christians. People whom I knew. People who prayed and who also fed the homeless and comforted those in prison.
I was like a 12 year old who argued that my Dad could beat up your Dad. Except it seemed as if you had no Dad.
Ringo never helped much. He always ALWAYS accused me of not doing what the Message said. Like a frig gen nagging conscience! And I got mad! How dare he claim the high moral ground when he did nothing more that I could see than hand out spare change. And you did little more than take out the neighbors trash.
But I always am honest. And I searched for the perfect church. The perfect Pastor/Leader. When Ravi Zacharias was exposed, found guilty, and tried through death, I was humbled. How could jar be right? And how in the hell did Theodoric know and believe the accusations before they were proven??? Yet today it is a known fact that Ravi was NOT who he appeared to be. Now I love Isaiah Saldivar. Isaiah is humble. Many in my inner circle know him personally. He really does encounter and cast out demons. I could care less what AZPaul says...about demons not existing and God not existing. I clench my fists and say to myself that "I'll show you!"
But now I feel as if He showed me. And whats humbling is the fact that He used you guys to do it!
I was hoping that He would show YOU instead of me!

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 280 by jar, posted 04-17-2021 1:02 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 282 by jar, posted 04-17-2021 3:07 PM Phat has not replied
 Message 283 by ringo, posted 04-17-2021 4:04 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 284 by nwr, posted 04-17-2021 5:37 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 286 of 895 (885556)
04-17-2021 6:49 PM
Reply to: Message 285 by anglagard
04-17-2021 5:39 PM


Re: What does the evidence show Phat?
Ok so how do we explain the deliverences? There is no way everyone is faking it. they actually believe something is happening to them. And they show outward manifestation of that. So how do you explain it? mass hypnosis?

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 285 by anglagard, posted 04-17-2021 5:39 PM anglagard has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 287 by jar, posted 04-17-2021 7:44 PM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 289 of 895 (885572)
04-19-2021 4:38 AM
Reply to: Message 284 by nwr
04-17-2021 5:37 PM


Re: What does the evidence show Phat?
He (Isaiah) really does encounter and cast out demons.
ringo writes:
No he really doesn't. That's a good place to start figuring out how honest he really is.
How can you be so sure that demons (or unexplained multiple personalities of some as yet unexplained source) do not exist? I don't think you have any reasonable alternate explanations. You simply assume that anything that cannot be objectively evidenced is non-existant.
nwr writes:
Are you honest to yourself?
Deep question. I think I am. I dont lie simply to win an argument, if thats what you mean.
nwr writes:
Then he is conning you, and you are falling for it.
I ask you the same questions I asked ringo. How do you know? Absence (of objective evidence) does not equal evidence of absence.
anglagard writes:
Well, regardless of such motivations be they religious, biological, political, or philosophic, any source may lead to the same conclusion - namely "to feed, heal, clothe, shelter, protect, comfort, teach." That is the true and highest calling of the most honest and definitive of humans.
OK, that sounds reasonable. God wouldnt want us spending our whole spiritual lives simply fighting off evil spirits if it got in the way of us feeding,
clothing, sheltering, protecting, comforting or teaching.
jar writes:
You want deliverance and the snake oil salesman offers deliverance and you buy.
I don't believe that *all* apologists are snake oil salesmen.
jar writes:
The easiest person in the world to fool is oneself.
. You assume that every single apologist on this planet is dishonest and seeks to fool me. I don't believe it.
Here is Isaiah talking about Ravi Zacharias and how the Body of Christ was fooled...nearly willingly.
Ravi Zacharias Scandal - My Thoughts
I trust this young man by and large but more than that I trust Christ in me.
If I end up getting fooled again, I might concede that jar was right about everything, but I honestly believe that the lot of you can learn a few things that you have never believed in.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 284 by nwr, posted 04-17-2021 5:37 PM nwr has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 290 by jar, posted 04-19-2021 7:41 AM Phat has replied
 Message 291 by ringo, posted 04-19-2021 10:48 AM Phat has replied
 Message 300 by AZPaul3, posted 04-19-2021 12:39 PM Phat has not replied
 Message 305 by nwr, posted 04-19-2021 3:04 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 292 of 895 (885579)
04-19-2021 11:09 AM
Reply to: Message 291 by ringo
04-19-2021 10:48 AM


Re: What does the evidence show Phat?
ringo writes:
The same way you can be so sure that Santa doesn't exist.
Nope. Not even close.
The real question here is: How can YOU and Saldivar be so sure that they DO exist?
First of all, let me make it clear that I am not involved in his Ministry personally except as a co-laborer in Christ and believer. Speaking as a co-laborer, however, the real issue is not that I need to be sure that demons exist. I am not going to invite *them* over for lunch. The REAL issue is whether or not Jesus Christ is alive today and the message that He has eternally told us we need to do.
It is irrelevant whether or not you believe that the supernatural is real. It is what it is...these conversations which you and I have. I have told you before that I sometimes feel as if I am wasting my time here in this internet forum, but I have been here for over ten years and I appreciate the online relationships.
So to answer your question---I cannot speak for Pastor Isaiah. You can listen to him for yourself and make your own judgements, opinions, and conclusions. Just as you do and have done with me.
ringo writes:
There are plenty of alternative explanations, one of the most obvious being out-and-out fraud. You KNOW there are fraudulent examples of "exorcism".
Yes, I know that fraud is widespread. Lets say for the point of argument that there is a supernatural realm and that there is one side of it trying to deceive and kill while the other side seeks to heal, educate, feed, and shelter. Its not too hard to choose your side now, is it? Or do you feel you have a choice?

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 291 by ringo, posted 04-19-2021 10:48 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 303 by ringo, posted 04-19-2021 2:33 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 293 of 895 (885580)
04-19-2021 11:13 AM
Reply to: Message 291 by ringo
04-19-2021 10:48 AM


Re: What does the evidence show Phat?
I CONCLUDE that without objective evudence there's no justification for assuming that something does exist. You use the same methodology for Santa, leprechauns, etc.
You keep making this same error lumping the Creator of ALL seen and unseen ino the same group as Leprechauns, Bigfoot's and Santa Claus. Wake up and smell the coffee.
And yet you haven't been able to show us one honest one.(Apologist)
I myself hope to be that one.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 291 by ringo, posted 04-19-2021 10:48 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 304 by ringo, posted 04-19-2021 2:38 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 294 of 895 (885581)
04-19-2021 11:19 AM
Reply to: Message 290 by jar
04-19-2021 7:41 AM


Re: What does the evidence show Phat?
jar writes:
You keep saying that but as has been pointed out to you many times, that is simply not true, correct, factual and has been refuted for you many many many many many times.
You cant objectively refute or disprove something that you cant even see, comprehend or measure.
Lets start slow. Do you believe in Jesus? Do you trust what you believe and know about Him?
jar writes:
If a claim is made that the target was hit there must be a hole in the target. The absence of a hole in the target is positive evidence that the target was not hit.
OK lets go with your analogy. If there is a room of hurting and broken people, and your job is to feed, clothe, encourage, comfort and HEAL them, the evidence would be that the hole in their heart was healed or healing, correct? The error that you make is in lumping it all together as a con. You cant make such a blanket assertion when the evidence clearly shows that many targets were hit and many holes in the hearts and souls mended.
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 290 by jar, posted 04-19-2021 7:41 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 298 by jar, posted 04-19-2021 12:24 PM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 297 of 895 (885584)
04-19-2021 12:14 PM
Reply to: Message 296 by PaulK
04-19-2021 12:08 PM


Unseen Battles
If we are talking spirit vs Spirit, the MMA fighter was obviously controlled by one, and it was not the Good One either!

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 296 by PaulK, posted 04-19-2021 12:08 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 301 by PaulK, posted 04-19-2021 1:02 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 306 of 895 (885598)
04-20-2021 5:21 AM
Reply to: Message 305 by nwr
04-19-2021 3:04 PM


Re: What does the evidence show Phat?
OK how do explain my experiences? Unless I am genuinely mentally ill or have some sort of chemical imbalance, I *think* I have a fairly good grip on m perceptions.
nwr writes:
Self-deception is very easy to do. Are you sufficiently skeptical? This is where confirmation bias comes in, and we are all susceptible to it.
What do you mean by sufficiently skeptical? Skeptical enough to be unbiased? My bias is based on my prior experiences and I don't want to simply falsify everything I experience. I always went by the motto that if you don't stand for something you will fall for anything.
I look at it differently..
And I appreciate that you do. Thats why we can have conversations.
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 305 by nwr, posted 04-19-2021 3:04 PM nwr has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 307 by nwr, posted 04-20-2021 11:57 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 308 by dwise1, posted 04-20-2021 12:16 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 309 by Coragyps, posted 04-20-2021 1:13 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 311 of 895 (885619)
04-20-2021 3:54 PM
Reply to: Message 310 by AZPaul3
04-20-2021 3:15 PM


Re: What does the evidence show Phat?
Pantheistic
Oblivious
Troll
P O T
Orrrrr
We could call "It" Peaceful Omnibenevolant Teacher
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 310 by AZPaul3, posted 04-20-2021 3:15 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 312 by AZPaul3, posted 04-20-2021 6:05 PM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 313 of 895 (885638)
04-21-2021 3:19 AM
Reply to: Message 309 by Coragyps
04-20-2021 1:13 PM


Re: What does the evidence show Phat?
Do you think, Phat, that this could have been a demonic event? I never really considered that possibility: I felt more like it had to do with the LSD that I had swallowed earlier that evening. Hallucinations are funny, you know, and don’t have to involve ingested hallucinogens.
Your story reminde me of a time and subsequent story of my own. We used to dabble with acid and psychedelic mushrooms a few times back in my twenties, and I am well aware of the effects of auditory and visual hallucinations as ell as the phenomenon of synesthesia (hearing colors and seeing sounds) which occasionally occurred. There were a couple of "trips" which were quite intense. One time I reflected on what had just happened to my brain for 12 hours straight. It was as if my entire concept of who I am and who I chose to be were challenged and perceived from new angles.
I recall that i tried to "plan" my trips and it never worked. Even crossing a street was difficult because I could no longer time the distance off the cars as they approached and whizzed past. The rules most definitely changed while tripping, at least from my perspective.
I sat for a while, watching the cars southbound on Highway 71 bypass drive by. They quit being just cars, though. They would get within a few hundred feet of where I was, and suddenly change into lions, jaguars, and tigers with glowing eyes, rushing down the road at breakneck speed! They would turn back into cars as soon as they passed. They made swooshing sounds, sort of like cars do, instead of growling. It was absolutely amazing and fascinating! This went on for quite a while. I was enthralled.
So if a person "thinks or imagines" that a car is a jaguar or lion, does that make the car that?
Not so far. But as has been said here before, I prefer fantasy over reality at times. I pretend that my fantasy (or hallucination) is reality at that moment...knowing in the other part of my head that the cars are still just cars.
With demons, I'm not sure how I think. I have only directly seen the human reaction to their own perception. And as of this writing, I have never had one cast out of me. To be honest, if I had one or more, I could'nt tell at this time.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 309 by Coragyps, posted 04-20-2021 1:13 PM Coragyps has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 314 of 895 (885642)
04-21-2021 7:49 AM
Reply to: Message 310 by AZPaul3
04-20-2021 3:15 PM


Long Strange Trips From Long Ago
We would go to concerts at Red Rocks. Everyone would take a psychedelic except perhaps the designated driver. While tripping, everyone else would see strange color trails, visual hallucinations, and amplified intensity of the concert experience.
Meanwhile, I would be "seeing" angels and demons battling it out on the mountain behind the stage.
Once I was tricked by another fan who stood on the railing in front of my seat before the show started...for hours. Once the show started, he stayed there and blocked my view. I told him he was in my seat. He told me that he too was in his seat. "No Way!I am sitting on my seat"I stammered..(a bench) He replied that he was "standing" on his seat...and the raw testosterone laden fight or flight emotions welled up in me! Normally, had I been sober or drunk, I likely would have knocked him into the seats.
I was, however, on acid, and the karma of those times (Grateful Dead Show) was all peace and love. Not quite like I later felt with the "Holy Spirit" but very close!
So, being filled with this strange dopamine & serotonin-charged energy, I began to dance and found myself loving it! I danced that whole show and even for days afterwards while at work.
The demons lost that day.
And I wasn't even "saved" at the time....or so I thought! .
Another sidenote: Different bands and musical genres brought with them different types of fans. At a thrash metal show, fighting was de rigueur while at Jethro Tull, cocaine was the exotic cocktail of the night. One time, I remember being at a Jethro Tull concert...3rd row from the stage. We sniffed a bit of coke and the adrenaline and positive energy was so keenly felt and experienced. I watched Ian Anderson on the stage in front of me. Suddenly, everyone in the whole arena took out their bic lighters to pay homage. Instantly in my brain a spiritual analogy was formed. (remember...this is before I was "saved" or indoctrinated by the apologists) The Bic Lighters represented what I now know as a relativistic secularized ripoff of the Holy Communion we celebrated in church. In church, the Light started with a lone candle from the Priest or Leader. He would light the candles of the ushers and they would go aisle by aisle lighting the candles of the parishioners. The symbolic Light of Jesus spread through the church through human contact. But at that moment so long ago when Ian Anderson pranched on the stage like a puppet master, every human in the arena took out their own "source" of light and shown it as a homage to the band. Likely few if any of them felt as if it was spiritual or symbolic, but I sure did. I was too high! But even in my time of inebriation with a stimulant, I felt that the lesson I found in my head was apt. True to this day. And I give Jesus...not the Cocaine credit for that enlightened insight.
Edited by Phat, : cleared up spelling and punctuation errors and elaborated a bit more

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 310 by AZPaul3, posted 04-20-2021 3:15 PM AZPaul3 has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 316 by dwise1, posted 04-25-2021 6:06 AM Phat has replied

  
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