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Author Topic:   COVID vaccine works - we're saved!
xongsmith
Member
Posts: 2578
From: massachusetts US
Joined: 01-01-2009
Member Rating: 6.8


Message 931 of 1110 (910314)
04-21-2023 3:32 AM
Reply to: Message 922 by Percy
04-20-2023 6:56 PM


Re: The Right to Spread Disease
Percy replies:
Does the real world ever come to a consensus that is wrong? If so, why are they found to be wrong?
The real world is never wrong.
But the consensus can be. At one time a majority of people thought the world was flat.
Today by my estimate some roughly 90% of the world still thinks that
there is a supernatural being who created the universe.
Or that there is a "spiritual world".
Or that any supernatural things exist in the real world,
the natural world.
BUT THAT IS OFF TOPIC.

"I'm the Grim Reaper now, Mitch. Step aside."
Death to #TzarVladimirtheCondemned!
Enjoy every sandwich!

- xongsmith, 5.7dawkins scale


This message is a reply to:
 Message 922 by Percy, posted 04-20-2023 6:56 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 935 by Kleinman, posted 04-21-2023 8:36 AM xongsmith has replied
 Message 941 by Percy, posted 04-21-2023 10:17 AM xongsmith has replied

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 336 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 932 of 1110 (910318)
04-21-2023 8:27 AM
Reply to: Message 928 by AZPaul3
04-20-2023 8:32 PM


Re: The Right to Spread Disease
AZPaul3:
No. You sure try hard to set some.
Shouldn't I at least get a participation medal?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 928 by AZPaul3, posted 04-20-2023 8:32 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 938 by AZPaul3, posted 04-21-2023 10:02 AM Kleinman has replied

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 336 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 933 of 1110 (910319)
04-21-2023 8:28 AM
Reply to: Message 929 by Theodoric
04-20-2023 10:53 PM


Re: The Right to Spread Disease
Theodoric:
Because it is irrelevant to the discussion.
Perhaps you shouldn't tell your wife that she is irrelevant to the discussion and that no one cares what she tells her patients when she starts them on antibiotics.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 929 by Theodoric, posted 04-20-2023 10:53 PM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 936 by Theodoric, posted 04-21-2023 9:38 AM Kleinman has replied

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 336 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 934 of 1110 (910320)
04-21-2023 8:29 AM
Reply to: Message 930 by xongsmith
04-21-2023 3:12 AM


Re: The Right to Spread Disease
xongsmith:
Kleinbottle restates his remark most of us interpreted as sarcastic:
Kleinman:
I realize your experience as a website administrator makes you much more knowledgeable in this topic.
xongsmith:
I think you got most of us confused over what you meant by your term, "this topic". Percy and the rest of us thought you meant the topic of this thread, Covid & evolution. if you has written it "more knowledgeable in that area" we might have understood what you were blabbing on about website administration as a way of agreeing that experience in a particular field makes you more knowledgeable in that particular field. .


You don't need my help to be confused, you do it quite well on your own.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 930 by xongsmith, posted 04-21-2023 3:12 AM xongsmith has not replied

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 336 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 935 of 1110 (910321)
04-21-2023 8:36 AM
Reply to: Message 931 by xongsmith
04-21-2023 3:32 AM


Re: The Right to Spread Disease
Kleinman:
Does the real world ever come to a consensus that is wrong? If so, why are they found to be wrong?
Percy:
The real world is never wrong.
xongsmith:
But the consensus can be. At one time a majority of people thought the world was flat.
​
Today by my estimate some roughly 90% of the world still thinks that
there is a supernatural being who created the universe.
Or that there is a "spiritual world".
Or that any supernatural things exist in the real world,
the natural world.
​
BUT THAT IS OFF TOPIC.


xongsmith will now prove to us that God does not exist. And then to get back on topic, he will explain why the Covid (or for that matter any) vaccine is not 100% effective.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 931 by xongsmith, posted 04-21-2023 3:32 AM xongsmith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 942 by xongsmith, posted 04-21-2023 10:32 AM Kleinman has replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


(2)
Message 936 of 1110 (910326)
04-21-2023 9:38 AM
Reply to: Message 933 by Kleinman
04-21-2023 8:28 AM


Re: The Right to Spread Disease
But I never said that about my wife. You are a liar. Lying is not only bad form but also against forum rules.

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 933 by Kleinman, posted 04-21-2023 8:28 AM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 937 by Kleinman, posted 04-21-2023 10:00 AM Theodoric has replied

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 336 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 937 of 1110 (910328)
04-21-2023 10:00 AM
Reply to: Message 936 by Theodoric
04-21-2023 9:38 AM


Re: The Right to Spread Disease
Theodoric:
But I never said that about my wife. You are a liar. Lying is not only bad form but also against forum rules.
Does your wife know what to tell her patients when she prescribes antibiotics? If so, what is it?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 936 by Theodoric, posted 04-21-2023 9:38 AM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 943 by Theodoric, posted 04-21-2023 10:36 AM Kleinman has replied
 Message 944 by xongsmith, posted 04-21-2023 10:39 AM Kleinman has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 938 of 1110 (910329)
04-21-2023 10:02 AM
Reply to: Message 932 by Kleinman
04-21-2023 8:27 AM


Re: The Right to Spread Disease
Shouldn't I at least get a participation medal?
The state took that away from you when they yanked your medical license.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 932 by Kleinman, posted 04-21-2023 8:27 AM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 940 by Kleinman, posted 04-21-2023 10:13 AM AZPaul3 has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22394
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 939 of 1110 (910331)
04-21-2023 10:09 AM
Reply to: Message 925 by Kleinman
04-20-2023 8:04 PM


Re: The Right to Spread Disease
Kleinman writes:
So you think that people should be confined if they have infectious diseases? Is Covid the only disease for which they should be confined or should they be confined for other infectious diseases?
You're still asking the same basic question, and the answer hasn't changed. How to balance personal freedom, individual safety and the risks to the overall population is a tough question. I don't have a ready "one size fits all" answer for you.
20% of Americans have an STD, is that a healthy society?
You can continue asking the same question in different ways, but my answer is the same. Societies should share the cost of health because a healthy society benefits all.
Many of these diseases are life-threatening and drug resistance is appearing in many others.
Sounds like a large and difficult problem that only society as a whole could tackle.
I've already given you my position on this subject, don't you remember?
Of course, but the nature of your continued questions strongly hints that you have more to say.
Kleinman:
Does the real world ever come to a consensus that is wrong? If so, why are they found to be wrong?
Percy:
The real world is never wrong.

What, no smilie?
No, no smilie, I was serious. You may have misinterpreted what I meant by real world. I was using it as a synonym for laws of the universe or natural physical laws, not the planet's population.
Kleinman:
What research study shows that you will never transmit an infectious disease?
Percy:
None.

Somebody confine Percy, there is no research that shows that he won't transmit an infectious disease.
No such research exists for any of us, including you. And as I said previously, isolation must take into account both degree of contagiousness and the severity of the disease. A highly contagious disease that for most individuals presents with very mild symptoms, such as a cold, requires no isolation. But isolation might be considered for highly contagious diseases that can cause severe illness or death.
Kleinman:
Why would people use the cliche "You can't treat viral diseases with antibiotics"?
Percy:
Antibiotics have no effect on viruses.

That is not necessarily correct.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/...ticle/pii/S0014299921003447
Highlights
• Azithromycin...
Studies have found that azithromycin is not an effective treatment for covid, including when combined with hydroxychloroquine. For example, this is from the Interpretation section of Azithromycin for community treatment of suspected COVID-19 in people at increased risk of an adverse clinical course in the UK (PRINCIPLE): a randomised, controlled, open-label, adaptive platform tria:
quote:
Our findings do not justify the routine use of azithromycin for reducing time to recovery or risk of hospitalisation for people with suspected COVID-19 in the community. These findings have important antibiotic stewardship implications during this pandemic, as inappropriate use of antibiotics leads to increased antimicrobial resistance, and there is evidence that azithromycin use increased during the pandemic in the UK.
And this is from the Discussion section of Azithromycin versus standard care in patients with mild-to-moderate COVID-19 (ATOMIC2): an open-label, randomised trial:
quote:
In conclusion, our findings in mild-to-moderate COVID-19 managed in ambulatory care, taken together with trials in early disease in primary care and from trials in patients admitted to hospital with severe disease, suggest that azithromycin does not reduce hospital admissions, respiratory failure, or death compared with standard care, and should not be used in the treatment of COVID-19.
Do you think the incidence of bacterial pneumonia could have been reduced if they had been given antibiotics (such as Azithromycin) early in the episode?
It would make sense that anticipating opportunistic bacterial infections like pheumonia through early regimens of antibiotics like azithromycin on covid patients who have not yet contracted pneumonia would have a beneficial impact, but studies did not find one.
As far as the antiviral effects of antibiotics, it's a large and complicated world out there. While antibiotics do not as a rule have any impact on viral infections, it is not inconceivable that there are cases where an antibiotic through some indirect channels has a measurable positive effect. Despite the findings of some researchers azithromycin didn't pan out, either to prevent pneumonia or to improve covid outcomes, and a casual Google search didn't turn up any antibiotics suggested for use with viral infections. But that doesn't mean none exist.
Kleinman:
Even the rhinovirus which is implicated in the common cold can cause serious disease.
Percy:
E. coli, too.

You might be surprised at the number of lethal pathogens that you are exposed to every day.
But we don't worry about them because they are so rarely lethal, and usually only for people with comorbidities such as cancer or advanced age.
What are the conditions that someone should be confined or lose their job due to any infectious disease?
You keep asking the same question in different ways. The answer hasn't changed. If there's a point you're trying to make beyond what you've already said then it would probably work better if you just stated it.
Kleinman:
Is Covid anything like Parkinson's or muscular dystrophy?
Percy:
No.

Parkinson's is a consequence of the destruction of the substantia nigra, muscular dystrophy is a genetic disease. Covid is a viral disease. Influenza has been implicated as a causative factor for Parkinson's. Should influenza patients be confined?
How high are the risk factors?
It certainly won't benefit his work on phylogenetics. It would reveal he is doing his mathematics incorrectly.
I think Felsenstein's actual point was that your math was already wrong at a basic level, and so there was no need to demonstrate that again in a more complex context.
Kleinman:
I use the same terminology that Darwin uses and clearly define any terms I use.
Percy:
The word "replication" never appears in Origin of Species.

Do you think that Darwin understood DNA? He did understand the concept of "reproduction",...etc...
I only pointed out that Felsenstein used the term "generations" while you used the term "replications", and since you claim they're not synonymous that means you didn't actually address what Felsenstein said. You attempted to rebut this by claiming you used the same terminology as Darwin, but Darwin never used the term "replication." You then attempted a further defense by irrelevantly changing the subject to DNA and reproduction.
The original question concerned your response to Felsenstein's comments. He employed the term "generations", but your response used the term "replications", and you said they do not mean the same thing. This makes it appear that you did not actually address what Felsenstein said. You need to respond to Felsenstein's comments in a way that actually addresses his concerns.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 925 by Kleinman, posted 04-20-2023 8:04 PM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 950 by Kleinman, posted 04-21-2023 12:06 PM Percy has replied

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 336 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 940 of 1110 (910332)
04-21-2023 10:13 AM
Reply to: Message 938 by AZPaul3
04-21-2023 10:02 AM


Re: The Right to Spread Disease
Kleinman:
Shouldn't I at least get a participation medal?
AZPaul3:
The state took that away from you when they yanked your medical license.

The medical board yanked my medical license just like the publisher yanked these two papers.
For a single selection pressure:
The basic science and mathematics of random mutation and natural selection
And for multiple simultaneous selection pressures:
The mathematics of random mutation and natural selection for multiple simultaneous selection pressures and the evolution of antimicrobial drug resistance
Check this out yanker.
The basic science and mathematics of random mutation and natural selection - PubMed
and
The mathematics of random mutation and natural selection for multiple simultaneous selection pressures and the evolution of antimicrobial drug resistance - PubMed
You should report this to Retraction Watch – Tracking retractions as a window into the scientific process . You will straighten this out.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 938 by AZPaul3, posted 04-21-2023 10:02 AM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 946 by AZPaul3, posted 04-21-2023 11:13 AM Kleinman has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22394
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


(2)
Message 941 of 1110 (910333)
04-21-2023 10:17 AM
Reply to: Message 931 by xongsmith
04-21-2023 3:32 AM


Re: The Right to Spread Disease
This was the original exchange:
Percy in Message 914 writes:
Kleinman in Message 913 writes:
How do you determine that evidence is relevant and reliable?
I expect that one becomes better at it through validating one's reasoning from evidence with feedback from the real world.
In this context "real world" just means laws of the universe or natural physical laws. I'm referring to validating hypotheses through experiments. It has nothing to do with polling the world's opinion.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 931 by xongsmith, posted 04-21-2023 3:32 AM xongsmith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 945 by xongsmith, posted 04-21-2023 10:54 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
xongsmith
Member
Posts: 2578
From: massachusetts US
Joined: 01-01-2009
Member Rating: 6.8


Message 942 of 1110 (910334)
04-21-2023 10:32 AM
Reply to: Message 935 by Kleinman
04-21-2023 8:36 AM


Re: The Right to Spread Disease
the Kleinbottle replies:
xongsmith will now prove to us that God does not exist.
I said it was OFF TOPIC. Apparently you cannot read.
And then to get back on topic, he will explain why the Covid (or for that matter any) vaccine is not 100% effective.
I roll my eyes and think to myself "Jeezo, what a shitfuck this Kleinman is. An unmitigated SHITFUCK."
Then I post that here.
How does it feel? To be all alone?

"I'm the Grim Reaper now, Mitch. Step aside."
Death to #TzarVladimirtheCondemned!
Enjoy every sandwich!

- xongsmith, 5.7dawkins scale


This message is a reply to:
 Message 935 by Kleinman, posted 04-21-2023 8:36 AM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 951 by Kleinman, posted 04-21-2023 12:18 PM xongsmith has not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


(1)
Message 943 of 1110 (910335)
04-21-2023 10:36 AM
Reply to: Message 937 by Kleinman
04-21-2023 10:00 AM


Re: The Right to Spread Disease
Again as I said before, that is irrelevant to this topic. Are just going to continue repeating this?

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 937 by Kleinman, posted 04-21-2023 10:00 AM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 952 by Kleinman, posted 04-21-2023 12:22 PM Theodoric has not replied

  
xongsmith
Member
Posts: 2578
From: massachusetts US
Joined: 01-01-2009
Member Rating: 6.8


Message 944 of 1110 (910336)
04-21-2023 10:39 AM
Reply to: Message 937 by Kleinman
04-21-2023 10:00 AM


He's a SHITFUCK
Re: Message 936 the Kleinbottle is a SHITFUCK.
He must love how it feels - he does it so often.

"I'm the Grim Reaper now, Mitch. Step aside."
Death to #TzarVladimirtheCondemned!
Enjoy every sandwich!

- xongsmith, 5.7dawkins scale


This message is a reply to:
 Message 937 by Kleinman, posted 04-21-2023 10:00 AM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 953 by Kleinman, posted 04-21-2023 12:26 PM xongsmith has not replied

  
xongsmith
Member
Posts: 2578
From: massachusetts US
Joined: 01-01-2009
Member Rating: 6.8


Message 945 of 1110 (910337)
04-21-2023 10:54 AM
Reply to: Message 941 by Percy
04-21-2023 10:17 AM


Re: The Right to Spread Disease
Of course - but it was the SHITFUCK's introduction of the term "consensus" that I took issue with.
Of course the real world is never wrong, but the consensus of it is can be, because that is a humanly-determined characteristic.
The whole engine of the Scientific Method is to determine the real world, not the consensus of what people think it is.*
* unless it is an actual scientific investigation of the various consensuses in the historical human world.

"I'm the Grim Reaper now, Mitch. Step aside."
Death to #TzarVladimirtheCondemned!
Enjoy every sandwich!

- xongsmith, 5.7dawkins scale


This message is a reply to:
 Message 941 by Percy, posted 04-21-2023 10:17 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 954 by Kleinman, posted 04-21-2023 12:29 PM xongsmith has replied

  
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