COVID vaccine works - we're saved!

Kleinman:

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Are you aware that there is a very high probability that you harbor infectious agents that under the right conditions can cause you serious and even life-threatening diseases?

Percy:

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Yes.

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Should you be required to get medical care?

Kleinman:

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Do you think that the cost of medical care is of no consequence?

Percy:

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No.

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Why should doctors be frustrated that insurance companies be involved in medical decisions?

Kleinman:

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Do you understand the difference between a medical opinion and sound medical advice?

Percy:

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The difference is context dependent.

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What is that context for Covid?

Kleinman:

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How do you determine that evidence is relevant and reliable?

Percy:

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Good question. I expect that one becomes better at it through validating one's reasoning from evidence with feedback from the real world.

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Is that the same real world that doesn't discern your view?

Kleinman:

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Do you think that someone that refuses to get vaccination should be punished?

Percy:

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If by punishment you mean isolation to prevent the risk of infecting others with a dangerous contagion because they're unwilling to self-isolate, then sure. If by punishment you mean incarceration, then that would depend upon other factors such as intentionality.

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You have already admitted that you may be harboring microbes that can cause serious or fatal diseases. Should you be self-isolating? If not, why not?

Kleinman:

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What makes you think I'm being sarcastic?

Percy:

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Because "I realize your experience as a website administrator makes you much more knowledgeable in this topic" is sarcastic.

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Did I say I was experienced as a website administrator?

Kleinman:

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Do you think that someone with Covid that gets a secondary bacterial pneumonia should not be treated with antibiotics?

Percy:

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Yes.

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When should that treatment start?

Kleinman:

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What do you think of the advice, "Take all your antibiotics until they are finished"?

Percy:

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I think the same thing as last time you asked.

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Do you think that a patient should take their antibiotics even if they are not showing any clinical benefit?

Kleinman:

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Do you think that Felsenstein uses a different definition for replication and generations than others?

Percy:

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I think only you know what you mean.

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DNA Replication Generation Definition & Meaning | Dictionary.com What do you mean by "replication" and "generation"?

Depends. It's obvious why. Depends. ? Contagiousness. No. Medical decision. I don't know. I'm not the one who used those terms, you were, in your Felsenstein quote and your response to it. I only asked if by "replications" you meant the same thing as Felsenstein did by "generations", because if you didn't then you didn't actually respond to what he said.--Percy

Kleinman:

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Should you be required to get medical care?

Percy:

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Depends.

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Depends on what?

Kleinman:

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Why should doctors be frustrated that insurance companies be involved in medical decisions?

Percy:

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It's obvious why.

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Do you think that others should pay for your medical care? If you think others should pay for your care, explain why?

Kleinman:

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What is that context for Covid?

Percy:

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Depends.

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Depends on what?

Kleinman:

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Is that the same real world that doesn't discern your view?

Percy:

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?

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Do you think that everyone in the real world agrees with your view. If not, why?

Kleinman:

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You have already admitted that you may be harboring microbes that can cause serious or fatal diseases. Should you be self-isolating? If not, why not?

Percy:

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Contagiousness.

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How do you determine that?

Kleinman:

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Did I say I was experienced as a website administrator?

Percy:

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No.

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How did my telling you that I do CME in pulmonary and intensive care cause you to bring up website administrators?

Kleinman:

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When should that treatment start?

Percy:

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Medical decision.

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How should that medical decision be made?

Kleinman:

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Do you think that a patient should take their antibiotics even if they are not showing any clinical benefit?

Percy:

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I don't know.

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Would you want to take a medicine that shows no clinical change in your condition?

Kleinman:

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What do you mean by "replication" and "generation"?

Percy:

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I'm not the one who used those terms, you were, in your Felsenstein quote and your response to it. I only asked if by "replications" you meant the same thing as Felsenstein did by "generations", because if you didn't then you didn't actually respond to what he said.

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Both you and Tangle brought up my discussions with Felsenstein on Panda's Thumb. Do you think that Felsenstein refuses to do the mathematics of the Lenski experiment because it would take too long? Among other things, the Lenski experiment demonstrates phylogenetics. Why wouldn't Felsenstein want to demonstrate his mathematics of phylogenetics on a repeatable experimental example?

On the same things I said last time you asked this question. I think societies should share in the expense of maintaining the health of their citizens. On the context of any discussion about covid. I don't think there's any view that everyone in the real world agrees with. But the real world is the ultimate arbiter of what is true. Research studies. The first to mention website administrators was you in Message 909. By medical professionals. I would listen to my doctors' reasons for continuing the regimen and make a decision based on that. And then there are those diseases where maintaining the status quo is a good thing, such as Parkinson's or muscular dystrophy. He seemed to be implying that the effort would exceed the benefit. You're asking the wrong person. I only noted that your response to Felsenstein used different terminology, making it appear that your response didn't actually address his concerns.--Percy

Kleinman:

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Should you be required to get medical care?

Percy:

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Depends.

Kleinman:

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Depends on what?

Percy:

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On the same things I said last time you asked this question.

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Why shouldn't you be confined?

Kleinman:

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Do you think that others should pay for your medical care? If you think others should pay for your care, explain why?

Percy:

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I think societies should share in the expense of maintaining the health of their citizens.

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Do you think that society should pay for STDs? And if so, why.

Kleinman:

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What is that context for Covid?

Percy:

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Depends.

Kleinman:

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Depends on what?

Percy:

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On the context of any discussion about covid.

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You are still not clear. In what context should people be compelled to get medical care for Covid. Should people be compelled to get medical care for influenza or STDs or any infectious medical condition?

Kleinman:

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Is that the same real world that doesn't discern your view?

Percy:

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?

Kleinman:

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Do you think that everyone in the real world agrees with your view. If not, why?

Percy:

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I don't think there's any view that everyone in the real world agrees with. But the real world is the ultimate arbiter of what is true.

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Does the real world ever come to a consensus that is wrong? If so, why are they found to be wrong?

Kleinman:

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You have already admitted that you may be harboring microbes that can cause serious or fatal diseases. Should you be self-isolating? If not, why not?

Percy:

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Contagiousness.

Kleinman:

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How do you determine that?

Percy:

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Research studies.

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What research study shows that you will never transmit an infectious disease?

Kleinman:

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Did I say I was experienced as a website administrator?

Percy:

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No.

Kleinman:

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How did my telling you that I do CME in pulmonary and intensive care cause you to bring up website administrators?

Percy:

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The first to mention website administrators was you in Message 909.

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I said the following in Message 909

Kleinman:

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I realize your experience as a website administrator makes you much more knowledgeable in this topic.

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You are angry because I have spent decades studying and treating people with infectious diseases and you haven't and I called you out on this.

Kleinman:

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When should that treatment start?

Percy:

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Medical decision.

Kleinman:

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How should that medical decision be made?

Percy:

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By medical professionals.

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Why would people use the cliche "You can't treat viral diseases with antibiotics"? What is the incidence of people with Covid that died from bacterial pneumonia? Even the rhinovirus which is implicated in the common cold can cause serious disease.
Common Cold | Disease or Condition of the Week | CDC Fatal Respiratory Infections Associated with Rhinovirus Outbreak, Vietnam - Volume 18, Number 11—November 2012 - Emerging Infectious Diseases journal - CDC Should you be confined if you have a cold?

Kleinman:

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Would you want to take a medicine that shows no clinical change in your condition?

Percy:

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I would listen to my doctors' reasons for continuing the regimen and make a decision based on that. And then there are those diseases where maintaining the status quo is a good thing, such as Parkinson's or muscular dystrophy.

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Is Covid anything like Parkinson's or muscular dystrophy? I had a friend who was a full professor of Neurology that thought that Parkinson's could be caused by influenza and that OCD (obsessive-compulsive disorder) can be a consequence of Group A Strep infection.

Kleinman:

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Felsenstein refuses to do the mathematics of the Lenski experiment because it would take too long?

Percy:

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He seemed to be implying that the effort would exceed the benefit.

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That might seem to be what Felsenstein is implying but wouldn't he want to test his model of phylogenetics against a real, measurable, and repeatable example?

Kleinman:

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Among other things, the Lenski experiment demonstrates phylogenetics. Why wouldn't Felsenstein want to demonstrate his mathematics of phylogenetics on a repeatable experimental example?

Percy:

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You're asking the wrong person. I only noted that your response to Felsenstein used different terminology, making it appear that your response didn't actually address his concerns.

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I use the same terminology that Darwin uses and clearly define any terms I use. It is Felsenstein that doesn't do the mathematics of real examples such as the Kishony and Lenski biological evolutionary experiments.

The gish gallop and strawman continue ad infinitum.

This is just a reformulation of a question you've already asked. The answer hasn't changed. A healthy society benefits all. You keep asking the same questions in different ways. If it's because you disagree perhaps you should describe your own position. The real world is never wrong. None. Oh. Interesting. Antibiotics have no effect on viruses. Pretty high. E. coli, too. You keep asking the same questions in different ways. The answer hasn't changed. No. Sounded like he'd like to but that the felt the benefit wasn't worth the effort. The word "replication" never appears in Origin of Species.--Percy

Theodoric:

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The gish gallop and strawman continue ad infinitum.

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You still haven't told us what your wife tells patients when she gives them antibiotics. It must be some big secret.

Funny that. You still haven't told us what you tell patients when you give them antibiotics.

Kleinman:

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Why shouldn't you be confined?

Percy:

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This is just a reformulation of a question you've already asked. The answer hasn't changed.

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So you think that people should be confined if they have infectious diseases? Is Covid the only disease for which they should be confined or should they be confined for other infectious diseases?

Kleinman:

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Do you think that society should pay for STDs? And if so, why.

Percy:

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A healthy society benefits all.

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20% of Americans have an STD, is that a healthy society? Many of these diseases are life-threatening and drug resistance is appearing in many others.

Kleinman:

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You are still not clear. In what context should people be compelled to get medical care for Covid. Should people be compelled to get medical care for influenza or STDs or any infectious medical condition?

Percy:

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You keep asking the same questions in different ways. If it's because you disagree perhaps you should describe your own position.

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I've already given you my position on this subject, don't you remember?

Kleinman:

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Does the real world ever come to a consensus that is wrong? If so, why are they found to be wrong?

Percy:

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The real world is never wrong.

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What, no smilie?

Kleinman:

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What research study shows that you will never transmit an infectious disease?

Percy:

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None.

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Somebody confine Percy, there is no research that shows that he won't transmit an infectious disease.

Kleinman:

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You are angry because I have spent decades studying and treating people with infectious diseases and you haven't and I called you out on this.

Percy:

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Oh. Interesting.

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That's interesting that you find that interesting.

Kleinman:

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Why would people use the cliche "You can't treat viral diseases with antibiotics"?

Percy:

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Antibiotics have no effect on viruses.

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That is not necessarily correct.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/...ticle/pii/S0014299921003447

Kleinman:

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What is the incidence of people with Covid that died from bacterial pneumonia?

Percy:

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Pretty high.

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Do you think the incidence of bacterial pneumonia could have been reduced if they had been given antibiotics (such as Azithromycin) early in the episode?

Kleinman:

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Even the rhinovirus which is implicated in the common cold can cause serious disease.

Percy:

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E. coli, too.

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You might be surprised at the number of lethal pathogens that you are exposed to every day.

Kleinman:

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Should you be confined if you have a cold?

Percy:

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You keep asking the same questions in different ways. The answer hasn't changed.

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What are the conditions that someone should be confined or lose their job due to any infectious disease?

Kleinman:

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Is Covid anything like Parkinson's or muscular dystrophy?

Percy:

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No.

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Parkinson's is a consequence of the destruction of the substantia nigra, muscular dystrophy is a genetic disease. Covid is a viral disease. Influenza has been implicated as a causative factor for Parkinson's. Should influenza patients be confined?

Kleinman:

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That might seem to be what Felsenstein is implying but wouldn't he want to test his model of phylogenetics against a real, measurable, and repeatable example?

Percy:

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Sounded like he'd like to but that the felt the benefit wasn't worth the effort.

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It certainly won't benefit his work on phylogenetics. It would reveal he is doing his mathematics incorrectly.

Kleinman:

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I use the same terminology that Darwin uses and clearly define any terms I use.

Percy:

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The word "replication" never appears in Origin of Species.

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Do you think that Darwin understood DNA? He did understand the concept of "reproduction", he used the term dozens of times. So, what does "reproduction" mean?
Reproduction Definition & Meaning - Merriam-Webster Reproduction | Definition, Examples, Types, Importance, & Facts | Britannica

He can't tell them anything. He's not allowed a prescription pad anymore.

AZPaul3:

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He can't tell them anything. He's not allowed a prescription pad anymore.

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Are you trying to set a record for the number of times you can be wrong?

No. You sure try hard to set some.

Because it is irrelevant to the discussion.

Kleinbottle restates his remark most of us interpreted as sarcastic: I think you got most of us confused over what you meant by your term, "this topic". Percy and the rest of us thought you meant the topic of this thread, Covid & evolution. if you has written it "more knowledgeable in that area" we might have understood what you were blabbing on about website administration as a way of agreeing that experience in a particular field makes you more knowledgeable in that particular field. .