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Author Topic:   COVID vaccine works - we're saved!
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 334 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 886 of 1110 (910203)
04-19-2023 8:36 AM
Reply to: Message 885 by Percy
04-19-2023 7:57 AM


Re: The Right to Spread Disease
Kleinman:
Do you understand that a general mask mandate for the prevention of the spread of an infectious disease requires a lot of preparation of the population, (education, training,...etc.)? And what do you do with children that are too young to understand that training? Do you think that writing a law solves the problem? Yours and the "good intentions" of others that think like you have harmed a lot of people with your shallow thinking.
Percy:
You don't provide examples of the kind of harm you're thinking of, but how do you balance the risk of death to a family's breadwinner against the loss of income from not working?

The first step in trying to do a risk/benefit analysis is to correctly formulate the probability problem correctly. You haven't formulated the problem correctly and people like you won't correct your formulation when your errors are pointed out, such as the difficulty of implementing a general mask mandate.
Kleinman:
I'm not arguing whether a properly worn, effective mask will reduce the risk of transmission of an infectious disease. Why do you continue to argue this way? The question is whether a generalized mask mandate will reduce the spread of Covid (or for that matter any other infectious disease). Where is your evidence that any generalized mask mandate reduced the spread of Covid?
Percy:
The mentions of mask mandates are all coming from you. I haven't mentioned them or commented on them. Why are you demanding evidence related to your assertions from me?

I do believe that the more that people wear high-quality masks in a public settings and the more properly they wear them, the more the spread of respiratory disease will be reduced.

This is the way you try to address your errors in the risk/benefit analysis for the implementation of a general mask mandate.
Kleinman:
Do you think that looking at a spreadsheet is the same as seeing and caring for patients?
Percy:
No, I don't think that, nor did I make any comment related to that. What I did was show that your claim that Fauci had little to no clinical experience was false.

Clinical Definition & Meaning - Merriam-Webster
1 : of, relating to, or conducted in or as if in a clinic: such as
a : involving direct observation of the patient
clinical diagnosis
b : based on or characterized by observable and diagnosable symptoms
clinical treatment
clinical tuberculosis
Kleinman:
Do you think you know enough to force people to behave in ways in their own best interests?
Percy:
I don't know how to make anyone do anything they don't want to do.

Try writing a law and then get the person arrested or fired.
Kleinman:
Try doing 150,000 documented patient encounters (encounters I got paid for) and see if you get some idea of how patients behave and respond.
Percy:
Please tell us about it.

Do you want me to tell you the instructions I give to patients that have an infection and being treated with antibiotics? Won't Theodoric's wife tell you? Or has Google failed to give you the expert advice.
I'll give you a hint, start with the four classical signs of infection. You can give me your answer in Latin. That is where you begin addressing the problem.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 885 by Percy, posted 04-19-2023 7:57 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 887 by Percy, posted 04-19-2023 9:20 AM Kleinman has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22388
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


(3)
Message 887 of 1110 (910204)
04-19-2023 9:20 AM
Reply to: Message 886 by Kleinman
04-19-2023 8:36 AM


Re: The Right to Spread Disease
Kleinman writes:
The first step in trying to do a risk/benefit analysis is to correctly formulate the probability problem correctly. You haven't formulated the problem correctly and people like you won't correct your formulation when your errors are pointed out, such as the difficulty of implementing a general mask mandate.
Again, I've never mentioned a general mask mandate, and I leave the epidemiological analyses to the epidemiologists. If you have epidemiological information that would be helpful to the discussion then please provide it.
This is the way you try to address your errors in the risk/benefit analysis for the implementation of a general mask mandate.
I haven't conducted any risk/benefit analysis for the implementation of a general mask mandate that I've never mentioned, other than to tell you that I've never mentioned it.
Percy:
I don't know how to make anyone do anything they don't want to do.
Try writing a law and then get the person arrested or fired.
Are you suggesting that to deal with pandemics government should pass and enforce laws with severe penalties for non-compliance?
Do you want me to tell you the instructions I give to patients that have an infection and being treated with antibiotics?
Sure, tell us, but specific to respiratory infections contagious enough to cause pandemics.
I'll give you a hint, start with the four classical signs of infection. You can give me your answer in Latin. That is where you begin addressing the problem.
Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetur adipiscing elit, sed do eiusmod tempor incididunt ut labore et dolore magna aliqua. Ut enim ad minim veniam, quis nostrud exercitation ullamco laboris nisi ut aliquip ex ea commodo consequat. Duis aute irure dolor in reprehenderit in voluptate velit esse cillum dolore eu fugiat nulla pariatur. Excepteur sint occaecat cupidatat non proident, sunt in culpa qui officia deserunt mollit anim id est laborum.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 886 by Kleinman, posted 04-19-2023 8:36 AM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 888 by Kleinman, posted 04-19-2023 10:03 AM Percy has replied

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 334 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 888 of 1110 (910206)
04-19-2023 10:03 AM
Reply to: Message 887 by Percy
04-19-2023 9:20 AM


Re: The Right to Spread Disease
Kleinman:
The first step in trying to do a risk/benefit analysis is to correctly formulate the probability problem correctly. You haven't formulated the problem correctly and people like you won't correct your formulation when your errors are pointed out, such as the difficulty of implementing a general mask mandate.
Percy:
Again, I've never mentioned a general mask mandate, and I leave the epidemiological analyses to the epidemiologists. If you have epidemiological information that would be helpful to the discussion then please provide it.

Do you understand the difference between claiming masks work and imposing a mask mandate on the general population?
Kleinman:
This is the way you try to address your errors in the risk/benefit analysis for the implementation of a general mask mandate.
Percy:
I haven't conducted any risk/benefit analysis for the implementation of a general mask mandate that I've never mentioned, other than to tell you that I've never mentioned it.

Are you aware that general mask mandates have been imposed in some localities? Do they show that they have decreased the spread of Covid? And if not, why?
Percy:
I don't know how to make anyone do anything they don't want to do.
Kleinman:
Try writing a law and then get the person arrested or fired.
Percy:
Are you suggesting that to deal with pandemics government should pass and enforce laws with severe penalties for non-compliance?


That's the strategy that you and people like you try. Where is the data that shows that mask mandates decrease the spread of Covid?
Kleinman:
Do you want me to tell you the instructions I give to patients that have an infection and being treated with antibiotics?
Percy:
Sure, tell us, but specific to respiratory infections contagious enough to cause pandemics.

So you don't want the instructions that should be given to a patient when being put on antibiotics but the instructions for reducing the spread of their infection?
Kleinman:
I'll give you a hint, start with the four classical signs of infection. You can give me your answer in Latin. That is where you begin addressing the problem.
Percy:
Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetur adipiscing elit, sed do eiusmod tempor incididunt ut labore et dolore magna aliqua. Ut enim ad minim veniam, quis nostrud exercitation ullamco laboris nisi ut aliquip ex ea commodo consequat. Duis aute irure dolor in reprehenderit in voluptate velit esse cillum dolore eu fugiat nulla pariatur. Excepteur sint occaecat cupidatat non proident, sunt in culpa qui officia deserunt mollit anim id est laborum

If you are going to cut and past from Wikipedia, at least cut and past the correct answer.
Inflammation - Wikipedia
The five cardinal signs are heat, pain, redness, swelling, and loss of function (Latin calor, dolor, rubor, tumor, and functio laesa). Inflammation is a generic response, and therefore it is considered as a mechanism of innate immunity, as compared to adaptive immunity, which is specific for each pathogen.[3] Too little inflammation could lead to progressive tissue destruction by the harmful stimulus (e.g. bacteria) and compromise the survival of the organism. In contrast, too much inflammation, in the form of chronic inflammation, is associated with various diseases, such as hay fever, periodontal disease, atherosclerosis, and osteoarthritis.
Before you start claiming that there are five signs, loss of function is not one of the classical signs of infection. There is actually much more to identifying someone with an infection. Infections can be imposters of other diseases.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 887 by Percy, posted 04-19-2023 9:20 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 889 by Percy, posted 04-19-2023 10:51 AM Kleinman has replied
 Message 890 by Percy, posted 04-19-2023 11:06 AM Kleinman has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22388
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 889 of 1110 (910210)
04-19-2023 10:51 AM
Reply to: Message 888 by Kleinman
04-19-2023 10:03 AM


Re: The Right to Spread Disease
Kleinman writes:
Do you understand the difference between claiming masks work and imposing a mask mandate on the general population?
Yes.
Are you aware that general mask mandates have been imposed in some localities?
Yes.
Do they show that they have decreased the spread of Covid? And if not, why?
The expectation would be that properly worn high-quality masks should reduce spread in public spaces.
Percy writes:
Are you suggesting that to deal with pandemics government should pass and enforce laws with severe penalties for non-compliance?
That's the strategy that you and people like you try.
The only one raising this strategy here is you.
Where is the data that shows that mask mandates decrease the spread of Covid?
Please see Decline in COVID-19 Hospitalization Growth Rates Associated with Statewide Mask Mandates — 10 States, March–October 2020 | MMWR for one.
So you don't want the instructions that should be given to a patient when being put on antibiotics but the instructions for reducing the spread of their infection?
You referred generally to "an infection", so I requested that you focus on respiratory infections to keep discussion more relevant to the thread's topic, which is covid, a respiratory infection.
If you are going to cut and past from Wikipedia, at least cut and past the correct answer.
That bit of Latin flotsam is used all over the Internet as filler. That was a joke. I put a smilie on it.
You asked about "the four classic signs of infection" but instead gave those for inflammation.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 888 by Kleinman, posted 04-19-2023 10:03 AM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 891 by Kleinman, posted 04-19-2023 11:17 AM Percy has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22388
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 890 of 1110 (910211)
04-19-2023 11:06 AM
Reply to: Message 888 by Kleinman
04-19-2023 10:03 AM


Re: The Right to Spread Disease
You seem very interested in mask mandates, so I did a little more searching. Here's another study on mask mandates: State-Level Masking Mandates and COVID-19 Outcomes in the United States. From the Conclusions section:
quote:
Our study builds on growing evidence that, prior to widespread vaccination, public masking mandates are associated with population-level reductions in COVID-19 spread.
And another: Association of State-Issued Mask Mandates and Allowing On-Premises Restaurant Dining with County-Level COVID-19 Case and Death Growth Rates — United States, March 1–December 31, 2020 | MMWR. From the Summary section:
quote:
Mask mandates and restricting any on-premises dining at restaurants can help limit community transmission of COVID-19 and reduce case and death growth rates.
And another: Overview ‹ Association between COVID-19 Outcomes and Mask Mandates, Adherence, and Attitudes — MIT Media Lab. From the opening paragraph:
quote:
We show that mask mandates are associated with a statistically significant decrease in new cases (-3.55 per 100K), deaths (-0.13 per 100K), and the proportion of hospital admissions (-2.38 percentage points) up to 40 days after the introduction of mask mandates both at the state and county level.
It makes sense that to the extent that people properly wear high quality masks in public settings that spread would be reduced.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 888 by Kleinman, posted 04-19-2023 10:03 AM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 892 by Kleinman, posted 04-19-2023 11:27 AM Percy has replied

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 334 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 891 of 1110 (910212)
04-19-2023 11:17 AM
Reply to: Message 889 by Percy
04-19-2023 10:51 AM


Re: The Right to Spread Disease
Kleinman:
Do you understand the difference between claiming masks work and imposing a mask mandate on the general population?
Percy:
Yes.

Based on that understanding, why can't you show the data that mask mandates work for reducing the spread of Covid?
Kleinman:
Are you aware that general mask mandates have been imposed in some localities?
Percy:
Yes.

Do you have any data that these general mask mandate work?
Kleinman:
Do they show that they have decreased the spread of Covid? And if not, why?
Percy:
The expectation would be that properly worn high-quality masks should reduce spread in public spaces.

On what do you base that expectation that the general public would wear masks properly and the masks be effective?
Kleinman:
That's the strategy that you and people like you try.
Percy:
The only one raising this strategy is you.

Where have I advocated for a mask mandate?
Kleinman:
Where is the data that shows that mask mandates decrease the spread of Covid?
Percy:
Please see Decline in COVID-19 Hospitalization Growth Rates Associated with Statewide Mask Mandates — 10 States, March–October 2020 | MMWR for one.

Do you understand the difference between the spread of Covid and the decline in hospitalization from Covid?
Kleinman:
So you don't want the instructions that should be given to a patient when being put on antibiotics but the instructions for reducing the spread of their infection?
Percy:
You referred generally to "an infection", so I requested that you focus on respiratory infections to keep discussion more relevant to the thread's topic, which is covid, a respiratory infection.

Do you understand the difference between the instructions in how to use antibiotics and the instructions that would guide a patient in reducing the spread of their infection, respiratory or otherwise?
Kleinman:
If you are going to cut and past from Wikipedia, at least cut and past the correct answer.
Percy:
That bit of Latin flotsam is used all over the Internet as filler. That was a joke. I put a smilie on it.

Oh, good joke.
Kleinman:
Inflammation - Wikipedia
Percy:
You asked about "the four classic signs of infection" but instead gave those for inflammation.

Aren't you aware that infections cause inflammation?
Diagnosis and management of cellulitis | RCP Journals
The classic presentation of rubor (redness), dolor (pain), tumor (swelling), calor (heat) are the hallmarks of cellulitis.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 889 by Percy, posted 04-19-2023 10:51 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 893 by Percy, posted 04-19-2023 1:08 PM Kleinman has replied

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 334 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 892 of 1110 (910213)
04-19-2023 11:27 AM
Reply to: Message 890 by Percy
04-19-2023 11:06 AM


Re: The Right to Spread Disease
Percy:
You seem very interested in mask mandates, so I did a little more searching. Here's another study on mask mandates: State-Level Masking Mandates and COVID-19 Outcomes in the United States. From the Conclusions section:
quote:
Our study builds on growing evidence that, prior to widespread vaccination, public masking mandates are associated with population-level reductions in COVID-19 spread.

Why didn't you post this from your link:
There were several limitations to our findings. First, our analyses may be subject to bias due to unmeasured confounding, incomplete control for measured confounders, and complex dependence. As previously discussed, examples of unmeasured common causes of the masking policy and COVID-19 outcomes included the (perceived) epidemic trajectory, the (perceived) compliance with prior public health policies, and the strength of the state’s public health department. There are likely many other factors; indeed, the spatial–temporal waxing and waning of COVID-19 is still poorly understood. Nonetheless, given the apparent differences between early and delayed states on measured confounders (e.g., population demographics and prior COVID-19 outcomes as shown in Table 1), we expected that our adjusted results were closer to the true effect than the unadjusted results. Of course, it is always possible that the unmeasured confounders balanced out the impact of the measured confounders.
Second, our adjusted analyses may be subject to bias due to incomplete control for measured confounding. As commonly occurring, the set of potential confounders was high dimensional, especially relative to our sample size (N=50 states). To improve data support and reduce the potential for bias due to violations of the positivity assumption,33 we reduced the confounder set based on univariate associations with the outcome. This approach should help avoid controlling for instrumental variables but also risks exclusion of a key confounder that is weakly associated with the outcome. In this application, the minimum and maximum of the estimated propensity scores were far from 0 and 1 (eTable 3; https://links.lww.com/EDE/B888).
Third, our causal model explicitly assumed independence between states. Due to the infectious nature of COVID-19 and travel between states, this assumption was likely to be violated. In cluster randomized trials, such interference is expected to bias the effect towards the null52; however, in settings with complex network dependence, the impact of interference can be unpredictable.53 In all scenarios, ignoring interference and other sources of dependence will cause our confidence intervals to be overly precise. Future work could partially relax this assumption by adjusting for the preexposure COVID-19 outcomes of neighboring states.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 890 by Percy, posted 04-19-2023 11:06 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 894 by Percy, posted 04-19-2023 1:09 PM Kleinman has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22388
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


(1)
Message 893 of 1110 (910215)
04-19-2023 1:08 PM
Reply to: Message 891 by Kleinman
04-19-2023 11:17 AM


Re: The Right to Spread Disease
Kleinman writes:
Based on that understanding, why can't you show the data that mask mandates work for reducing the spread of Covid?
...
Do you have any data that these general mask mandate work?
See Message 890.
On what do you base that expectation that the general public would wear masks properly and the masks be effective?
That wasn't the expectation I expressed. I said that the expectation would be that properly worn high-quality masks should reduce spread in public spaces.
Where have I advocated for a mask mandate?
I didn't say that you were. I said you were the one who keeps mentioning it.
Do you understand the difference between the spread of Covid and the decline in hospitalization from Covid?
Not sure what you're saying here. If you're just asking if I know the difference, then yes I do. If you're implying a correlation between covid spread and declining covid hospitalization, then that seems unlikely to me.
Do you understand the difference between the instructions in how to use antibiotics and the instructions that would guide a patient in reducing the spread of their infection, respiratory or otherwise?
You're asking if I know the difference between instructions for taking medication and the instructions for reducing contagion? If so then yes.
Percy:
You asked about "the four classic signs of infection" but instead gave those for inflammation.
Aren't you aware that infections cause inflammation?
Yes. Are you saying that the answer to your question about the four classic signs of infection is identical to the answer to the same question for inflammation? Because they're not. It isn't even an appropriate question for infection because the symptoms for infection can be incredibly varied due to the wide variety of diseases. It might be best to just stay focused on covid in this thread.
Addressing this generally to the thread, I don't know if anyone has already posted this, but I found this message at Panda's Thumb: Evaluating Alan Kleinman's arguments
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 891 by Kleinman, posted 04-19-2023 11:17 AM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 895 by Tangle, posted 04-19-2023 1:30 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied
 Message 898 by Kleinman, posted 04-19-2023 1:42 PM Percy has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22388
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


(1)
Message 894 of 1110 (910216)
04-19-2023 1:09 PM
Reply to: Message 892 by Kleinman
04-19-2023 11:27 AM


Re: The Right to Spread Disease
Kleinman writes:
Why didn't you post this from your link:
Thank you for posting more content from the link.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 892 by Kleinman, posted 04-19-2023 11:27 AM Kleinman has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 895 of 1110 (910217)
04-19-2023 1:30 PM
Reply to: Message 893 by Percy
04-19-2023 1:08 PM


Re: The Right to Spread Disease
Percy writes:
Addressing this generally to the thread, I don't know if anyone has already posted this, but I found this message at Panda's Thumb: Evaluating Alan Kleinman's arguments
It's been posted at least twice Percy.
Several attempts have been made to reason with him but he is impervious - he's a religious nut job and troll with no hope of redemption.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 893 by Percy, posted 04-19-2023 1:08 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 899 by Kleinman, posted 04-19-2023 1:46 PM Tangle has not replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


(2)
Message 896 of 1110 (910218)
04-19-2023 1:36 PM


Observation
I found that if I read Kleinman's messages - I don't have any idea what's going on.
But, if I read Percy's messages - I get the gist of the conversation.
Not only that, even if I read only Percy's text (and ignore Kleinman's text that Percy quotes in his message...) - I can still follow the conversation just fine.
I dunno - I just think that says a lot.

Replies to this message:
 Message 897 by Tanypteryx, posted 04-19-2023 1:38 PM Stile has seen this message but not replied
 Message 900 by Kleinman, posted 04-19-2023 1:48 PM Stile has seen this message but not replied

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4344
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.8


(1)
Message 897 of 1110 (910219)
04-19-2023 1:38 PM
Reply to: Message 896 by Stile
04-19-2023 1:36 PM


Re: Observation
I dunno - I just think that says a lot.
It says everything!

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq


This message is a reply to:
 Message 896 by Stile, posted 04-19-2023 1:36 PM Stile has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 901 by Kleinman, posted 04-19-2023 1:50 PM Tanypteryx has replied

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 334 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 898 of 1110 (910220)
04-19-2023 1:42 PM
Reply to: Message 893 by Percy
04-19-2023 1:08 PM


Re: The Right to Spread Disease
Kleinman:
Based on that understanding, why can't you show the data that mask mandates work for reducing the spread of Covid?
...
Do you have any data that these general mask mandate work?
Percy:
See Message 890

I see your Message 890 and raise it to Message 892
Kleinman:
On what do you base that expectation that the general public would wear masks properly and the masks be effective?
Percy:
That wasn't the expectation I expressed. I said that the expectation would be that properly worn high-quality masks should reduce spread in public spaces.

Why would you expect that?
Kleinman:
Where have I advocated for a mask mandate?
Percy:
I didn't say that you were. I said you were the one who keeps mentioning it.

That's because you have false expectations about what the public would do.
Kleinman:
Do you understand the difference between the spread of Covid and the decline in hospitalization from Covid?
Percy:
Not sure what you're saying here. If you're just asking if I know the difference, then yes I do. If you're implying a correlation between covid spread and declining covid hospitalization, then that seems unlikely to me.

Who is more likely to be hospitalized for Covid, a child or an elderly person?
Kleinman:
Do you understand the difference between the instructions in how to use antibiotics and the instructions that would guide a patient in reducing the spread of their infection, respiratory or otherwise?
Percy:
You're asking if I know the difference between instructions for taking medication and the instructions for reducing contagion? If so then yes.

Do you think the general public understands that distinction? And if so, do they understand those instructions without the physician having to explain those instructions?
Percy:
You asked about "the four classic signs of infection" but instead gave those for inflammation.
Kleinman:
Aren't you aware that infections cause inflammation?
Percy:
Yes. Are you saying that the answer to your question about the four classic signs of infection is identical to the answer to the same question for inflammation? Because they're not. It isn't even an appropriate question for infection because the symptoms for infection can be incredibly varied due to the wide variety of diseases. It might be best to just stay focused on covid in this thread.
Addressing this generally to the thread, I don't know if anyone has already posted this, but I found this message at Panda's Thumb: Evaluating Alan Kleinman's arguments


The Covid infection triggers inflammation, as do many other causes of injury to the tissues. Don't you want to know what the patient should understand when they are treated for an infection with antibiotics? Theodoric won't tell what his wife tells her patients, and Google doesn't tell you what the expert advice is. Don't you want me to tell you so that you can say, "That's obvious", except you won't tell us now?
And Tangle has already pointed out my discussion with Felsenstein on Panda's Thumb. Do you know that Felsenstein refuses to do the mathematics for the Lenski experiment?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 893 by Percy, posted 04-19-2023 1:08 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 905 by Percy, posted 04-19-2023 2:25 PM Kleinman has replied

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 334 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 899 of 1110 (910221)
04-19-2023 1:46 PM
Reply to: Message 895 by Tangle
04-19-2023 1:30 PM


Re: The Right to Spread Disease
Percy:
Addressing this generally to the thread, I don't know if anyone has already posted this, but I found this message at Panda's Thumb: Evaluating Alan Kleinman's arguments
Tangle:
It's been posted at least twice Percy.

Several attempts have been made to reason with him but he is impervious - he's a religious nut job and troll with no hope of redemption.​

I just don't buy your pseudoscientific tripe. Do you know Felsenstein's reason for not doing the mathematics of the Lenski experiment?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 895 by Tangle, posted 04-19-2023 1:30 PM Tangle has not replied

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 334 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 900 of 1110 (910222)
04-19-2023 1:48 PM
Reply to: Message 896 by Stile
04-19-2023 1:36 PM


Re: Observation
Stile:
I found that if I read Kleinman's messages - I don't have any idea what's going on.

But, if I read Percy's messages - I get the gist of the conversation.

Not only that, even if I read only Percy's text (and ignore Kleinman's text that Percy quotes in his message...) - I can still follow the conversation just fine.

I dunno - I just think that says a lot.
Math really isn't that hard.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 896 by Stile, posted 04-19-2023 1:36 PM Stile has seen this message but not replied

  
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