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Author Topic:   Broken Thinking Skills & Pointless Discussion
Inactive Member

Message 8 of 65 (881330)
08-22-2020 12:04 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Tangle
08-22-2020 2:51 AM

The randomness of design and the design of randomness
I really don't know why we engage with them anymore, nothing can be achieved, we've heard everything, they don't even provide entertainment, trying to reason with them is just cruel. Never try to teach a pig to sing; it doesn't work and it annoys the pig. You can't reason people out of a position that they didn't reason themselves into. etc
I was a religious nutter... Admittedly, it takes time to break down the sting of cognitive dissonance... Its a very painful process. Most people dig in their heels when confronted with something that challenges their worldview, but you might be surprised what is actually getting through.

I've been reading a few threads on Evolution Fairy Tales, it's an echo chamber for even more of these wing-nuts ruled over by the self-impressed Mike the Wiz. He turns up here from time-to-time to show off his superior knowledge of fallacies. He's a weird one. He knows about logic but he can't apply it. He's a transitional human - the irony. He really thinks that he can think rationally but he can't. Like Faith, he's a motivated thinker, he knows his conclusion is 'therefore God' so everything starts backward and he falls at the first logical fence.
Most people don't like the thought of them disintegrating into nothingness. They can conceive a time when they did not exist, but now that they are here to think of a time where they return to nothing is difficult. Their entire view of life is within their own mind. So what is existence outside of it? This consciousness they are experiencing must therefore go on forever.... through the "soul."
Would we exist if our parents did not have sexual intercourse? What if it was a different spermatazoa that reached the egg faster than the one that fertilized your mother's egg? What if it was the egg that was fertilized the month before her last period? If your mother met a different man, would you still be you, just a different version of you? Would you still be you if your father met another woman and you would be a different version of you? Look how different even siblings can be. Same parents, different gametes. Endless combinations coming from two sources of genetic material. We are all products of chance, lest we believe that god pulls the strings... and if god pulls the strings then there is no freewill. Does Mikey think about things like this?
I find this sort of thing very hard to understand. Neither he nor Faith are stupid, they're both reasonably intelligent it's just that their intelligence has been corrupted by the religious disease that prevents rational thought. They can learn the rules of logic and science but break them all the time, perhaps without knowing. (But increasingly I think it's deliberate.) They then go on to accuse those pointing out their errors of being irrational.
At the end of the day they don't like the thought of being tossed about randomly at the mercy of the waves. Its more palatable to think that there's some grand, master plan. Fortuitousness is too..... fortuitous.
I suppose it has to be because they're all self-taught and uneducated. They've never had anyone with real training to correct them, they impress each other and that's good enough for them.
Faith, ironically by those random gametes merging, likely with a bit of nurturing, is now set in her ways... she will always find a way to wiggle around the obvious. Its easier for her to see you as an impediment placed in her way to prove her Fallen world theory and the hands of the devil steering you her way to test her as Job was tested... ultimately for her it is God telling Abraham to kill his son and having the faith to go through with it... and at the last second god changes the child to a sacrificial lamb. Stubborness is viewed as steadfastness to her... we just see it as willful and deliberate ignorance. What is Faith without her faith? She doesn't know and she's terrified to find out.
A big part of their certainty is that many consider themselves 'saved'. Despite their book telling them that no one can know that. Many/most also think that god talks to them. I suppose that is the ultimate 'evidence' into which everything else must fit regardless of how objectively wrong it is proven to be.
Its a monologue that they choose to think is a dialogue.
But why being born again, saved and having god talk to you means that the earth is 6,000 old is beyond me, and why seeing that incontrovertible error in others, it doesn't make those that god also talks to think 'hang on, how can that be, God's saying different, contradictory, things to him than me?' I really don't know.
Because if portions of the bible are errant then how can you be sure which parts are fables inserted by man and which parts are perfectly preserved by the hand and will of God? I mean, its so obvious.... What does Habbukkuk have to do with anything, historical or spiritual, in the modern age? Isn't super obvious that it was written for 2nd century Jews from the biased perspective of 2nd century Jews? But they will find a way to ensure that its relevant because without that belief they aren't tethered to anything.
So they have to believe its inerrant, and if it is and there are genealogies, they have to subtract backwards and come up with the timeline provided by almighty god. And then you just make the evidence conform to what the book says instead of following the evidence to its logical conclusion without any bias.
But to the question of what point is it if they never seem to change their mind.... some do. Some never do. Either way when we communicate with one another things are imprinted in us. We are learning different perspectives. There's beauty in that.
Edited by Hyroglyphx, : No reason given.

"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Tangle, posted 08-22-2020 2:51 AM Tangle has not replied

Inactive Member

Message 19 of 65 (881630)
08-26-2020 1:58 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by Phat
08-26-2020 11:40 AM

Re: Creation vs Evolution has been settled for over a century
You guys make the mistake of assuming that if God speaks to one guy (through impressions, dreams, voice, or whatever) than by logic He should simply speak to everyone. This is where you error.
Here is an excerpt from the preface of an unpublished book I wrote, entitled - THE ROAD TO DAMASCUS: Finding Life Amidst the Valley of the Shadow of Death
Growing up I was a fairly typical young man. I had parents and a sister that loved me. I was never without anything thing that sustains life or lacked amenities that might have enhanced it. I had a multitude of friends. I was athletic and healthy. I was musically inclined. For all intents and purposes, I had every conceivable reason to be successful in whatever desire I sought to endeavor. Despite all my worldly blessings and achievements, a life once seemingly clear, grew dismal.
Always make a practice of provoking your own mind to think out what it accepts easily. Our position is not ours until we make it ours by suffering. The author who benefits you the most is not the one who told you something you didn’t know before, but the one who gives expression to the truth that has been dumbly struggling in you for utterance. —Oswald Chambers
This quote, paraphrased from one of the great Christian apologists, has summed up the ‘expression to the truth that has been dumbly struggling in (me) for utterance.’ As well, I pray that I might be that author who gives to you the expression to the truth that has been been dumbly struggling in you for utterance. Where should I begin?
It seems that for as long as I can remember, I have toiled and agonized with the ‘void.’ The void: What is it? The void is that curious sense of lack; that nagging sense that something is missing. It is that place of emptiness inside the human heart. The void is that peculiar intuition that something is amiss or awry, but you aren’t sure why. The void is ever-present in all facets of human thought and emotion. I found this inequality to be true in my own experience, recognizing that it was separate from intellect, meaning, I could not think my way out of it. The void spurns the logical and any attempt to rationalize it ends with disparaging results. The void is a quandary and a vexation of sorts. The whole of life becomes so much more than just enigmatic. It is the missing piece of the puzzle. As more variables appeared I was confronted with a maze of obstacles. The twists and turns sent me roundabout until I came full circle, from where I began. I became the proverbial dog who chases his own tail. What I thought was reality became illusory. What I thought was truth was anything but and it chastened me.
From this position it had caused me to consider the philosophical questions that enter our minds from time to time. I have always found it tremendously interesting to ponder the deeper aspects of such notions and to observe how others have formulated their own conclusions. Gaining perspectives on others allowed me to assimilate my views from theirs, through comparison and contrast. It inevitably led me even further into the uncomfortable journey of introspection. Unfortunately, I had no idea what it was that I was looking for and certainly did not know how to find it. The only thing certain for me was that intangible pang in my heart. It was haunting and nothing seemed to offer any solace. I searched through vain and temporal avenues seeking restitution, but reprieve from it constantly alluded me. There were no lines of demarcation; where a boundary began and where it would end. And so, I sought the council of those I deemed to be wise, hoping that they had some insight on life that I was failing to grasp. To my dismay, they were just as lost as I was, and perhaps more so, because at least I could admit it to myself. These self-help gurus wore pride as a necklace and were blinded by their own convoluted sense of self-worth. At this point in time I had heard all the arguments to support this or that religion or to meditate on this or that philosophy but it all left a bad taste in my mouth. All that I gave ear to began sounding like a broken record. Today’s discourse was merely a carbon copy of yesterdays rant. The former was a slight gradation of the latter, with a subtle twist. It was the same mouthful of mouthwash just swishing to the other side of the cheek. The understanding that I had hoped to find in them was either fleeting or elusive, altogether. Meanwhile, I suffered in quiet desperation as one day melted seamlessly into the next. I am sure those closest to me sensed some level of despair in me, but I doubt they understood the breadth and depth of its extent. Life was grievous to me and what I thought was reality was now faade. Growing weary with cynicism, I eventually embraced agnosticism but not before weighing the juxtaposition of religiosity and philosophy - Confucianism, Taoism, Buddhism, Hinduism, Atheism, Rationalism, and the like. Some of the ‘ism’ schism caught my eye but they were quickly put to death for a lack of, what, I do not know. I had been witnessed to by virtually every Christian denomination imaginable. They were either weak in their faith and thus, could not present an argument that was dismantled in moments, or I had put up walls in which to shut them out. And so, for years, I was at the crossroads of ambivalence, not knowing up from down.
Something new was in the air as Alexan spoke; something new on the horizon had dawned. Ironically enough, I did not feel some resplendent bliss that one might associate with the prospect of someone coming to terms with a fixed belief. Nay, but rather, it was dread. It was insidious and I could feel it in the pit of my gut. An uneasy feeling came over and the hairs on the back of my neck stood on end. The air was stagnate and there was a ringing in my ear. ‘Something’ knew it had been discovered as I becoming increasingly aware of its presence and it is aversion to having me hear what she had to say about God. In spite of this, it could not keep me away from Him. The bondages of oppression began to lift throughout the conversation.
A few weeks after that experience, I had opened myself increasingly to the possibility of an omnipotent, omniscient, and omni-benevolent presence. I wasn’t entirely sold out on the notion just yet, but I was allowing the possibility to flourish instead of stifling it as I had done for so many years. I began to listen to sermons on the radio and started to read the Bible with understanding. I was able to discern that which I could not recognize before. The Word became a catalyst to a consuming flame. I began to pray to God, that if He truly was there, that He would reveal Himself to me. And a few weeks after the walls were let down, it happened...
I was on a routine patrol getting ready to secure a building on the base. For the life of me, I cannot recall what the sermon was about or what exactly it was that affected me so greatly, nonetheless, like a clarion call, it came to me. Have you ever looked at something for so long that it becomes obscured to you? Have you ever looked at something for so long that you come to realize that it never truly made any sense to you to begin with? Suddenly and inexplicably, it dawns on you what it is! I was sitting in the patrol unit with my jaw to the floor. Incredible emotion swept through me like a shock wave. Emotion washed over me as I was enveloped by grace. I literally fell out of the vehicle, prostrate, in a semi-fetal position. Tears began to well up in my eyes, so heavy and full of burden. And there on the ground, in an unguarded moment, I wept bitterly to my Lord. Amid the sobs were guttural groans, interrupted by a feeble attempt to express the ineffable. I begged for intercession and pleaded forgiveness. In that once-in-a-lifetime moment, I understood that which had vexed me for so long. And because I asked, I received. That was the day that I met the Holy Spirit of Almighty God! After being so sick and tired, of being so sick and tired, I was saved by grace through faith in Christ Jesus.
Lord if you are willing, you can make me clean.’ Jesus replied, ‘I am willing. Be clean. —Matthew 8:2-3
Does it feel like that, Phat? Some would say that is pretty powerful testimony I gave about 18 years ago. The question is, was any of it real or did my brain find what I wanted it to? Maybe I can no longer hear God because of my apostate ways.... maybe I never heard him at all. Maybe that voice was my own. I have no way of knowing. No one reading these words can know for certain whether that experience was a delusion or a reality; including me and I'm the one who lived it.
At the end of the day, if the scriptures are accurate then it all boils down to faith. But do they say that so that you rely on your convictions or do they say that because they know they can't prove any of it?
I will tell you this concerning my conversion story. I had joined the Navy specifically and exclusively to become a Navy SEAL. Prior to this time it was an obsession of mine. In about July of 2000 I got my shot and went to BUD/S. Long story short, 1.5 months in I failed out on a pass/fail evolution. My worldview collapsed. I found myself in an existential crisis and my psyche was deeply fractured. I broke up with a long-time girlfriend and began dating a woman who I was absolutely madly in love with. Did I mention she had a boyfriend? Did I mention her boyfriend went to BUD/S with me and that we were pieces of shit for doing that to him? Did I mention that he found out on September 10, 2001? Why do you suppose I remember that date specifically?
So now my fractured psyche is more fucked up than ever... Needless to say to fill the void I engaged in a lot of sexual encounters until I hooked up with a chick, mentioned in the story, who in the long run was a total and complete disaster.
But can you see that I was being set up for something; anything to give my life meaning at that point in time?
So... again... I ask, was it real or did I want it to be real?
Edited by Hyroglyphx, : No reason given.

"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Phat, posted 08-26-2020 11:40 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by dwise1, posted 08-26-2020 10:37 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

Inactive Member

Message 21 of 65 (881656)
08-26-2020 11:11 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by dwise1
08-26-2020 10:37 PM

Re: Creation vs Evolution has been settled for over a century
I have read so many deconversion stories. One abiding theme for so many is that they did not want to deconvert. Rather, reason had led them inexorably to the point of realizing that their faith did not work. They wanted so desperately for their faith to still work, but they realized that their faith could not work. It was so painful for most of them, but once you have seen the light, you cannot return to the darkness.
Not much else to say... Pretty much perfectly summarizes it.

"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by dwise1, posted 08-26-2020 10:37 PM dwise1 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by Phat, posted 08-29-2020 5:44 AM Hyroglyphx has not replied

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